Only on a sunday


Senior member
Sunday catch up day..

"develop a persona only for trading"..

why develop an engine for 24/7 and use it only on lunchbreaks?
why build an howitzer and use it just to fire peas?
what is it that is so unacceptable in this "trading persona" that it cannot by implication be used to do other than trade?
what is it about this development of self that is so elitist that you must be wired up right to do it?

It would be funny if it was not so paradoxical...

A thread devoted to developing mindset..admirable !
Implicit in this process is the ability to keep an open mind and develop a questioning mind..a mind that by virtue of reasoning can be used as a tool to develop learning about self ,others and the relationships between same.

What purpose is then served when basic tribal instincts are allowed to mindlessly supercede reason. I refer to the instinct to 'group' ,to become defensive of the 'group' , to instill in the 'group' something that can distinguish it totally from those not in the 'group'. That is , elitist qualities reflected in the view "that not being wired up to standard" identifies a non 'group' member.

Can people not be involved in this process for it's own worth without having to develop a pseudo rational based on having to be 'extraspecial'. There are no rocket scientists in the human race deserving of being 'extraspecial'..history shows us this if we wish to see it. It's just another 'glass wall' ..step through doesn't hurt and on the otherside is acceptance


Senior member
Morning Salty,
I post here and 'thoughts for the day' in relation to matters of interest.Posting here does not divert other threads from their chosen course of discussion. Members participating in those threads will read here or not as they choose ;) although "30 out of 15,000" might not agree with what is posted. That's their choice and it's fine if it is based on a "reasoned view".

Coffee time

Salty Gibbon

Experienced member
Are you trying to say that traders are in an elite group and are special in some way ?

If so, then I would beg to differ.

Trading requires a certain unique mindset but most other pursuits also require their own unique set of skills and mindsets.

So, is being part of a group elitist ? I think not - it is just being part of a certain group, that's all.

I don't know If my comments are relevant to what you said Chumpy because I found it very difficult to decipher your exact meaning.


Senior member
chump, it is all to do with crowd behaviour and the brain reverting to the primitive


Senior member
Massimo Piattelli-Palmarini "Inevitable Illusions :How Mistakes of Reason Rule Our Minds"
ISBN 0-471-15962-X

I refer you again to the above book as a tool for understanding reasoning and other works by this author that relate to language development etc..I'll be getting my cut ;)

More seriously , it appears to me that "not being wired etc" is less to do with the individual than it is to do with the way many parents and the educational system approach learning.

How many of you recall being diverted by irrelevant one liners by Mum /Dad /Teacher when you had a question about something that would have promoted your understanding of same had the question but been answered in a reasoned way.

Mum/Dad typically don't have the time to go through the where/what/why process so they divert you instead. Teachers often focus on 'memorising facts' rather than probing the underlying rational. They do this ,because this is the time honoured way of passing exams and churning out masses of people who basically know a lot and understand little.Has such you may know William The Conqueror did for Harold in 1066,but typically your teacher would not have told you why ,what the context was, how the process unfolded and why the outcome occurred.

This is the distinction between so called knowing about some issue and understanding that same issue.

If the above is true then 'not being wired' is largely a matter of circumstance, but one which is open to be changed by any individual who is motivated to make such a change.



Senior member
Yes Racer tribal instincts and crowd behaviour are synonymous in this context.

Personally I would rather be Vermalet than John Law.


Active member
m8 - i wanna give u some advise.

wot u need 2 do is make yr self more like freud. u gotta say something cryptic then follow it up by saying if u understand u r chosen one, if u dont it proves u r no good and chump is still right. then u gotta go round the houses a load more times to develop a following and at the same time say the herd instinct is the worst evil and u gotta think 4 yr self - which is wot none of yr followers/disciples can do, otherwize they wont be following u wud they!

then persist with insults aimed at no one in particular in order to develop a bit of controversy and thus more attention for your self.

next u should explain how emotions r the killer in trading and u should have no emotion, yet get very upset and take any constructive questioning, joke or critisism very personally. this conflict will baffle the disciples even more and add to their confusion & insecurity of their understanding even more - so they invest more time reading your cryptic stuff when they should be getting their hands dirty with real market experience and learning whats right for them.

u should NEVER actually give stuff away that actually helps people make money - not even somthikg simple like cut losses and let profit run. u gotta keep em hangin 2 yr tail kid.

u know when u-ve done a good job cos the disciples will even start 2 copy the way you write using same expressions and semantics.

btw - i luv joining herds/crowds. they make trends that make me money. i just hit the exit b4 they do thats all.


Active member
I understand you chump.

As a society we are not taught to reason and think independantly. We are taught facts and skills, but not reasoning, lateral creative thinking and imagination. I include imagination as it is the media of understanding and 'new ideas', the scratch pad of problem solving is the imagination.

I found paradoxically that the way to reprogram our learning and ability is through stilling the thought process through mediation and altered states of consciousness. By stilling the mind it allows it to restructure and clarify. deeper knowledge, a knowledge that cannot necessarily be worded but can only be felt.

We aren't taught in school how to be truely intelligent as that is not its purpose. The purpose of school is to make us effective members of society, not to be self fulling, self-realized beings. If we are neurotic robots all screaming in quiet desperation but are still trapesing into work for all our 'productive' years... then that is all society cares. When we are no longer so useful we are cast aside with next to nothing to live off... cast into the corners out of harms way till we die!

But to be effective, self-realized human beings we need imagination, creativity, non-linear thought!

And that is dangerous for capitalism in many ways... for we would ask questions on everything. Can I do this better? Why should I do this because everyone else did? What is the meaning and purpose of this? What is the meaning and purpose of life? What is the meaning and purpose of spiritual life? Existence in any form. These questions create change, a drive for values that aren't inline with the masses.

When we are effective at asking questions and imagining scenarios and solutions, and we not only accept being different and thinking differently but actively pursue individuality. The search for the true expression of ourselves in whatever form. That just because others do not think the same or look the same or do the same, doesn't make anyone wrong at all. That being a member of a group isn't the most important thing. Then we are effective, self fullfilling, self-directed and self-realized being.

At school we are taught to be a part of a group. We are bullied for being different. We are all dressed in uniforms to obliterate our individuality. We are given beliefs from our parents and we are taught 'truths' about the world and existance that aren't questioned. For instance: You have to go to work to make a living! Blood is thicker than water (keeping in contact with relations even if you hate them). You have to get married and have children to lead a fulfilling life. and other such beliefs.

And then we have patterns of behaviour instilled in us. Patterns in our subconscious mind. patterns of poverty, patterns of failed relationships, patterns of loneliness or lack of fulfillment. We all have patterns but without self-awareness of a high degree we would not recognise them, we would just accept the way life is without thinking the reason why we behave as we do, or what can be changed.

What you said about the Trading group is also true Chump! It is another 'elite'... another gang... We are traders, we talk this way, 95% of people can't do this... look how wonderful and special we are that we can trade profitably! We are the elite 5%...

And like all beliefs, its just a thought with emotional expectation. The 95% failure is a belief, the belief that its somehow really difficult and you have to be extraspecial to do it, is just a belief. A belief accepted by many people becomes a self-fulfilling 'truth'. It is a means of making you a member of a group.

You can have a skill and do a thing without being a member of any 'group'... you can be a trader and be an individual. You dont have to walk the walk and talk the talk... or believe that you are somehow special and superior. Or indeed have any preconceived beliefts about it at all.

You dont learn to be a trader... you develop into one. You evolve character traits and maturity. You are confronted with beliefs about money and self-worth. You are faced with your fears, your hopes, your dreams... your beliefs about life and work and purpose. Are you leading a purposeful life? Does your life need purpose? What is purpose.... do I feel I need to do humanity good (why?)... am I defined by my work and career (why is this so?)... Do I deserve to have money without working 9 to 5? (why dont I?)

Many traders will miss the vast and furtile ground for self development and understanding of the nature of reality presented to them in the process of become a trader. We are defying a huge sweaping belief of capitalism... that you can't make wealth out of 'nothing' (money doesn't grow on trees), that you need to work to be a worthy person... poverty consciousness is rife in the western world..

Trading takes on the form of almost a spiritual development when you use it as a media for self-discovery and evolution. The destination is only a fraction of its value.

But the destination of trading as your living isn't the ends but merely a tool, a door to another world. It frees your mind and life from the mundane task of having to survive!! Money, money, money... We waste our lives in 9 to 5 and then when we are too old and decreped and have no money to enjoy our lives and be fulfilled, we are cast aside! People are overwhelmed by the task of surviving and scraping together a few quid just to have a few moments of pleaure in the weekend or a few times a year go off somewhere just to get away from the pain of existence.

With freeing ourselves from this burden we can then strive to express and fulfill ourselves. Strive for our purpose, enrich our minds and souls. Discover our purpose... develop, grow, evolve, explore, experience, savour. If we just become consumers with our trading profits, we miss a great and wonderful opportunity. The tip of maslow's pyramid has never before been so close to being obtained!
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Experienced member
pkfryer - One of the best posts Ive read in a long time. This is exactly how I see things too.

"Free your mind and your ass will follow" George Clinton (Funkadelic)

Salty Gibbon

Experienced member
You dont learn to be a trader... you develop into one.

I would agree with this.

You can learn how to trade fairly quickly but proper practical application of the knowledge, ending in consistent profitable trading, takes a lot of practice over a very long period.


Senior member
"I understand you chump"..LOL it's a bull market

PK, try some Steinbeck , I think you will appreciate..

"This I believe:
That the free, exploring mind of the individual human is the most valuable thing in the world.

And this I would fight for:
The freedom of the mind to take any direction it wishes, undirected.

And this I must fight against:
Any idea, religion, or government which limits or destroys the individual."

Followed by a little Ayn Rand

"If I were to speak your kind of language, I would say that man's only moral commandment is: Thou shalt think. But a 'moral commandment' is a contradiction in terms. The moral is the chosen, not the forced; the understood, not the obeyed. The moral is the rational, and reason accepts no commandments."

Mr Crichton..harsh words,but depending on your perspective ..true?

"Human beings never think for themselves, they find it too uncomfortable. For the most part, members of our species simply repeat what they are told--and become upset if they are exposed to any different view. The characteristic human trait is not awareness but conformity, and the characteristic result is religious warfare. Other animals fight for territory or food; but, uniquely in the animal kingdom, human beings fight for their 'beliefs.' The reason is that beliefs guide behavior, which has evolutionary importance among human beings. But at a time when our behavior may well lead us to extinction, I see no reason to assume we have any awareness at all. We are stubborn, self-destructive conformists. Any other view of our species is just a self-congratulatory delusion."
A personal favorite from Richard Taylor

"People fare best when they look not to moral rules and principles, not to priests and churches, and not to creeds, but to the actual results of what they do."

"but to the actual results of what they do" (copied that bit again for added emphasis)

and given my comments above regarding the notion of circumstance I cannot very well omit this remark from GB Shaw

"People are always blaming their circumstances for what they are. I don't believe in circumstances. The people who get on in the world are the people who get up and look for the circumstances they want, and if they can't find them, make them."

Very pertinent to trading is this one from Richard Feynman

"in any organization there ought to be the possibility of discussion... fence sitting is an art, and it's difficult, and it's important to do, rather than to go headlong in one direction or the other. It's just better to have action, isn't it than to sit on the fence? Not if you're not sure which way to go, it isn't."

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Senior member
Only disgustingly early on Thursday mornings

"Reason - is a process of intellectualising. Which is itself a consciously controlled and triggered event. We can choose to intellectualise or not.

Impartiality - total impartiality to everything and anything would require not just an acceptance but a genuine experience of non-being. Achievable through deep meditation, but normally requiring many years.

Ability to act - requires a motivation to achieve an end result. But I imagine in this context you mean ability to act selflessly? This would require an attitude of total non-caring".

Commenting on the above for intellectualising let's substitute empathetic thinking.

Impartiality , let's drop the "non-being" and reverse it to "acceptance of self interest as being the central rational" ,but in doing this let's try to drop all the connotations we might have about this expression. Let's rearrange it and really think about what is 'good' for our self interest. I'd like to suggest anything is good for this if it is based on reasoning. Therefore to evaluate the appropriateness of emotion to context would be central to this self interest.
"Non-being" suggests the absence of emotion whilst what I am trying to point out is that the presence of emotion in itself is not 'bad' ,or necessary. Self interest based on reasoning and choice of emotion appears to me to more appropriate.

Ability to act , absolutely the reverse and the motivation for this is the driver of self interest based on reasoning and emotional control (impartiality) achieved from reasoning.

An example..

Some decade later our 'bully' from a prior story was in a nightclub minding his own business when he received a punch on the side of the face. In turning round he saw a guy stepping back. His facial expression was signalling he wanted our 'bully' to continue a fight. Our 'bully' made several observations
1.The punch was non damaging
2.The guy facing him was not dangerous (by implication had he been dangerous he would not have stepped back)
3.Four individuals several paces behind the guy were showing different behaviour to the people around them.
4.Our 'bully' took another punch to the side of the face in the interim period required to make these observations
5.Whilst the guy was stepping back for a second time our 'bully' simply turned his back and walked away.

This is using prior experience to learn that reasoning ,emotional control, and acting in self interest are a process for life. I reiterate what I posted on "Thought for the Day" ..acceptance and control...

off to work


Active member
Your not suggesting its a "bull market after all" are you?


Senior member
"Your not suggesting its a "bull market after all" are you?"....well that depends on what you think is meant by the original statement "It's a bull market" what did you think was meant by that statement ?


Junior member
I've been reading the posts over at socrates new thread and many of the remarks posted here about his group are very interesting

Theres an exchange going on at the moment between socrates and dc200 #599. dc200 asks a question and socrates response is " I will answer your question once you have thought about what you are asking before asking me again"

What strikes me is that the anybody who tolerates this type of behaviour from their "teacher" must be very desperate or feeble or probably both. I would be very surprised if those who are "suitably wired" make any impression on the trading world


Experienced member
james88 said:
I've been reading the posts over at socrates new thread and many of the remarks posted here about his group are very interesting

Theres an exchange going on at the moment between socrates and dc200 #599. dc200 asks a question and socrates response is " I will answer your question once you have thought about what you are asking before asking me again"

What strikes me is that the anybody who tolerates this type of behaviour from their "teacher" must be very desperate or feeble or probably both. I would be very surprised if those who are "suitably wired" make any impression on the trading world

You seem to be more focussed on the style and not the content.
The content of what he (or anyone) says is what's important.
If you already a successful trader then you do not need to read it.
If you are not, then you might benefit from it.
The point of Socrates approach is that you can only learn what he learnt by working hard. Nothing can be given on a plate because it's all about changing yourself.
So your decisions are
1. Does he know what he is talking about because he is successful ?
2. If so, and you want to learn, are you prepared to make the effort and ignore any aspect of style which irritates you ?

The point of the statement to dc200 was simply to make him think about his question again. This is Socrates trying to help him, not something else.
To repeat - Nothing can be given on a plate because it's all about changing yourself.




What strikes me is that the anybody who tolerates this type of behaviour from their "teacher" must be very desperate or feeble or probably both. I would be very surprised if those who are "suitably wired" make any impression on the trading world

One of the key teachings that is being attempted is to "Lose the Ego" as it is this that prevents many traders from being able to become consistently successful in trading. The reason for this is that it is the ego or "I" as it is known in ancient cultures that thinks it is right and prevents the ability to view things in a different light.

Far from being weak or feeble minded I would say that maybe Socrates is conducting a test. If the response is "How dare you treat me this way" then clearly the ego is not yet ready to let go.

At a simple level, I have seen traders who cannot let go of their belief that they are right and the market is wrong and this "Ego" cost them their entire life's savings and bankrupted them and I have seen this on more than one occasion. I have seen others whose Ego out of desperation wouldnt allow them to take a loss and the result was a huge loss that could have been a small one. I have also seen others who intuitively knew when to enter and when to exit a trade and these people were more humble than their losing counterparts. Of course there are others who use purely mathmatical or mechanical approaches which straight jackets the Ego to be unable to influence the trading decisions and in my view this is a good approach for beginners to take although at some point the Ego would need to be addressed if they wish to progress to a non mechanical trading approach.



Junior member
Interesting points

Not much time to reply now but your comments about losing ego are amusing. There is nobody on this BB whose posts reveal as much ego as socrates.


Experienced member
james88 said:
Interesting points

There is nobody on this BB whose posts reveal as much ego as socrates.

With respect, you're missing the point.
His ego when posting is one thing.
His (lack of) ego when trading is another. That is what his posts are about.

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