No Plan, No Trade

piphoe

Legendary member
10,038 194
Almost, cept that im speaking on behalf of the market and i see you getting upset sometimes. Just tryin to help you out bro (y)
of course i get upset, esp when pusing a little too hard and not going my way.

i'm only human.
 

piphoe

Legendary member
10,038 194
i've been "glued" to a trading screen (actually 7 24inchers, all lined up thin bezel:) 18/7 for last 12 yrs.

i think i know smthg by sheer weight of OBSERVATION, if nothing else :/

is it enough, i think it is
 

dbphoenix

Legendary member
6,952 1,244
There's a big difference between having 12 years' experience and having one year of experience 12 times.
 

piphoe

Legendary member
10,038 194
There's a big difference between having 12 years' experience and having one year of experience 12 times.

wow some real bit of wisdom there. going spend next 18 hrs is some real soul searching :clap::clap::clap:
 

foroom lluzers

Veteren member
3,611 135

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foroom lluzers

Veteren member
3,611 135
If you are sitting in front of a computer screen watching price go down and account value erode, perceived threats are still there. Once your fight or flight response hits, you won’t always behave logically and rationally.plan the trade trade the plan?Your brain command centre stops.

The most important aspect of succesful trading is trading phsychology.Successful trading is 80% psychology and 20% methodology. Phsychology knowledge is a must for every beginner.If they find an edge or a method or any system , it will be totally useless , if they can not execute the edge ,without the right mindset.Human autonomic nervous system is not wired to handle stressful mental activities LIKE TRADING.When your brain does not function (phsychology) in real time , everything else is wort zero , because the brain can not give accurate commands to trade , as required by systems etc.

An Amygdala Hijack is an immediate and overwhelming emotional response out of proportion to the stimulus because it has triggered a more significant emotional threat. The amygdala is the part of our brain that handles emotions. During an Amygdala Hijack, the amygdala "hijacks" or shuts down the neo-cortex.

The prefrontal cortext holds the circuitry we need for abstract thought. It allows us to concentrate on the task at hand while storing useful information in temporary storage for later on. It also prevents you from performing inappropriate actions and is basically the command centre for the brain.This is how stress can shut down the command centre in the brain


http://www.trade2win.com/boards/psychology-risk-money-management/45686-trading-psychology-13.html#post2892590
 

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foroom lluzers

Veteren member
3,611 135
@smokealarm, the main point was that many people think they have a plan, when they in fact have a disaster waiting to happen.

I tell my students to ask themselves 'how can i' questions and go do some markups (show the ideas on charts), paying special attention to the places where their ideas fail. There are too many 'systems' that data mine to show 'good' trades and ignore bad ideas: often on the same 'example' charts posted.

@NVP,
thanks.

G.
All this does not work in reality , good luck with your vendor business and marketing sales.

Traders trade their beliefs ,cognitive biases and related distortions ,emotions ,stress responses (rective patterns ,freezing on trigger ,mistakes etc),subjective anylysis ,personality( Perfectionism ,Worry ,Overconfidence,
Negative Thinking.Self-blame etc),state of mind ,current body condition (tired ,fatigue,sleepless) and other influences .The trading phsychology is a complex subject ,the author has given a summary.



http://www.trade2win.com/boards/educational-resources/222992-your-brain-wasnt-built-handle-reality.html



Traders are like monkeys , they suffer from the MONKEY BIAS, THEY DO MONKEY BUSINESS ON LIVE ACCOUNTS


Like this?

Humans are very clever and we get clever , when it is not in our interests .When given a highly profitable system , we second guess systems , because we are smart and smarter than the creator of the system.We are like monkeys and do monkey business on live accounts .It is called self sabotage.


http://www.trade2win.com/boards/educational-resources/223084-why-do-succesful-traders-hang-around-forums.html

We are curious and try new things , inventions and do the same in trading.
We get too clever for our own good in trading ,like these monkeys.

 

tomorton

Legendary member
7,312 976
Most traders who lose are damaged by greed and fear, induced by committing real money to risk, to the point where they make irrational decisions.

Some poor decisions can be way before opening a trade and some can be insidious, e.g. -
* losing money after a day's trading is the worst thing that can happen
* forex has a risky reputation so I'll trade stocks
* my aim is to make £25 every day
* I am a retired professional with time on my hands, I'm going into daytrading
* the Dow has got really high so I'm going to short the DAX
* I'm prepared to risk 30 pips so I'm going to hold this damn trade until I get +60
* I've got +60 so I'm going to close this one
* last 3 trades today were losers so I'm shutting down and going to the gymn

Such ways are how traders sabotage their own chances of success.

Most dumb daytrading systems lose money. Most long-term trading systems make money. Most new traders start in daytrading.

All points towards psychology being way more important than the individual system.
 
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dbphoenix

Legendary member
6,952 1,244
Most traders who lose are damaged by greed and fear, induced by committing real money to risk, to the point where they make irrational decisions.

Some poor decisions can be way before opening a trade and some can be insidious, e.g. -
* losing money after a day's trading is the worst thing that can happen
* forex has a risky reputation so I'll trade stocks
* my aim is to make £25 every day
* I am a retired professional with time on my hands, I'm going into daytrading
* the Dow has got really high so I'm going to short the DAX
* I'm prepared to risk 30 pips so I'm going to hold this damn trade until I get +60
* I've got +60 so I'm going to close this one
* last 3 trades today were losers so I'm shutting down and going to the gymn

Such ways are how traders sabotage their own chances of success.

Most dumb daytrading systems lose money. Most long-term trading systems make money. Most new traders start in daytrading.

All points towards psychology being way more important than the individual system.
Your first statement is true. However, it does not necessarily lead to your conclusion. A system which allows the sort of decisions you list is hardly a system, much less a sound system. A sound system will not allow these kinds of decisions. To the contrary, a sound system, one that is thoroughly tested, will discourage if not eliminate fear as the trader will be approaching his trading deliberately and rationally, not trying to "feel" his way through the session.
 

tomorton

Legendary member
7,312 976
Your first statement is true. However, it does not necessarily lead to your conclusion. A system which allows the sort of decisions you list is hardly a system, much less a sound system. A sound system will not allow these kinds of decisions. To the contrary, a sound system, one that is thoroughly tested, will discourage if not eliminate fear as the trader will be approaching his trading deliberately and rationally, not trying to "feel" his way through the session.

dbp - These decisions are examples of irrational decisions that are poor and emotionally based, at the very least questionable. Yes, they don't form a system, I don't say they do, but they are so often starting points for new traders, even before they have a system.

There can only be 2 reasons for a losing trading career - a poor system or trading a good system poorly.

Applying a winning system with emotional input introduces greed and fear and their subordinate biases leading to wrong decisions. Though wrong, these are often carefully reasoned and supported by advanced indicator work: it would be incorrect to think that emotionally-driven bad decisions are impulsive, they can be based on an emotional bias put in place, perhaps sub-consciously, years earlier.
 

dbphoenix

Legendary member
6,952 1,244
dbp - These decisions are examples of irrational decisions that are poor and emotionally based, at the very least questionable. Yes, they don't form a system, I don't say they do, but they are so often starting points for new traders, even before they have a system.

There can only be 2 reasons for a losing trading career - a poor system or trading a good system poorly.
I misunderstood your conclusion in part. You said that "all points towards psychology being way more important than the individual system," which I took to imply that all of what you posted earlier was part of some sort of system. In any case, this conclusion cannot be reached simply by providing examples of emotional or otherwise dysfunctional trading. Much is made of "psychology", particularly in trading forums and in trading literature. But psychology need not even be pertinent, at least not more so than any other situation in which the interaction of demand and supply enters into whatever decision one chooses to make with regard to conducting a purchase. If one develops a trading system properly, fear is short-circuited. It serves no purpose. It is irrelevant. Those who do not have a thoroughly-tested trading system, on the other hand, which accounts for nearly all beginning traders (who insist on trading by "feel"), will be fearful almost from the moment they switch on their computers. One need only skim the journals to see how prevalent this is.

Applying a winning system with emotional input introduces greed and fear and their subordinate biases leading to wrong decisions. Though wrong, these are often carefully reasoned and supported by advanced indicator work: it would be incorrect to think that emotionally-driven bad decisions are impulsive, they can be based on an emotional bias put in place, perhaps sub-consciously, years earlier.
They aren't impulsive, just unnecessary. I've written enough and possibly too much about trading fearlessly and emotionlessly so won't repeat it here. But anyone who wants to do a search shouldn't have any trouble finding the stuff.
 

foroom lluzers

Veteren member
3,611 135
I misunderstood your conclusion in part. You said that "all points towards psychology being way more important than the individual system," which I took to imply that all of what you posted earlier was part of some sort of system. In any case, this conclusion cannot be reached simply by providing examples of emotional or otherwise dysfunctional trading. Much is made of "psychology", particularly in trading forums and in trading literature. But psychology need not even be pertinent, at least not more so than any other situation in which the interaction of demand and supply enters into whatever decision one chooses to make with regard to conducting a purchase. If one develops a trading system properly, fear is short-circuited. It serves no purpose. It is irrelevant. Those who do not have a thoroughly-tested trading system, on the other hand, which accounts for nearly all beginning traders (who insist on trading by "feel"), will be fearful almost from the moment they switch on their computers. One need only skim the journals to see how prevalent this is.



They aren't impulsive, just unnecessary. I've written enough and possibly too much about trading fearlessly and emotionlessly so won't repeat it here. But anyone who wants to do a search shouldn't have any trouble finding the stuff.
We have been through this emotionless trading etc .Writers write and vendors sell , but traders trade ,no other person can tell you what real trading is about .

People who write are good at writing and those who are good at peddling THE INFORMATION (their beliefs and knowledge about trading ), are found on forums peddling stuff.Forum sites/vendors sell information to members ,that does not make them traders , they just picked up the information from somewhere.

Only real traders will tell you about emotions , stress responses ,patience and other psychology.They experienced it and can tell you about it.You can not write with authority , on something you don't understand or ever experienced .There are plenty of "music to my ears " content writers , who write on trading , and most never traded.Others are still on forums after 20 years , they can't find a holy grail.

I have nothing against vendors selling , good luck to you , but don't come and teach a grandmother how to suck eggs.
 

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foroom lluzers

Veteren member
3,611 135
When you are dead , you have no emotions , you can then trade without emotions .

When you are alive , you trade with emotions , and often trade emotions , not the system.

Trading is stressfull mental activity , it arouses emotions and stress responses , Your emotional brain is faster than your rational , it calls all the shots in live trading.

Our emotions have helped us immeasurably over the course of human evolution. Emotional responses are milliseconds faster than cognitive (thinking) responses; the lightning-fast reactions that bypass the rational brain centers were often survival responses for our distant ancestors. The limbic brain sends us the warning of a crisis before the rational brain can even process the incoming signal: the body has been alerted and is ready to act on our behalf.

Search on google

"amygdala and prefrontal cortex emotion"
"amygdala hijack"
"amygdala hijack examples"

Search free videos on youtube on emotions and learn.

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/psychology-risk-money-management/194038-no-plan-no-trade-5.html#post2893488
 

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