I'm sitting on the 'Holy Grail' system - How can I fund this?

[BSD]

Tar yes that's totally right, those kinda returns aren't compoundable, as eventually you start moving the market due to eventual liquidity limitations. If you want to keep compounding your returns will keep diminishing to the point where if you're really a biggie 10 - 20 % / year is the stuff of genius already.

But that's what twi said up there also, you can't run large funds chasing returns like that, and he was keeping under 50K in his accounts, taking out surplus profits.

 

[tar]

But that's what twi said up there also, you can't run large funds chasing returns like that, and he was keeping under 50K in his accounts, taking out surplus profits.

Thats why i said profits of such unscaleable strategies should be represented in $ terms .

 

[Forexmospherian]

Guys we should differentiate between locals trading/Pit trading/market making unscaleable strategies and scaleable outright trading , you cant make 25%-50% monthly for ever that's why non of the guys mentioned here is a billionaire when infact if they really are making 25%-50% monthly then they should be billionaires by now .
Performance of unscaleable strategies -like buying at the bid and selling at the ask in STIRs - shouldn't be represented in percentage terms because its not scaleable , but rather performance should be represented in $ .
BTW re these so called wizards and legends i will take their stories with a pinch of salt and pepper .

Very True

For me though - now I know my own "financial wall" or barrier - I prefer to take as much profit out as possible - ideally a few times a month - and then spend a third of half of it - and invest and spread the rest around in other investment products - whether Property / Art / Classic Cars / yachts / 3D printers etc etc - in fact anything to diverse your portfolio and not be reliant on just pure financial markets

 

[tar]

Very True

For me though - now I know my own "financial wall" or barrier - I prefer to take as much profit out as possible - ideally a few times a month - and then spend a third of half of it - and invest and spread the rest around in other investment products - whether Property / Art / Classic Cars / yachts / 3D printers etc etc - in fact anything to diverse your portfolio and not be reliant on just pure financial markets

How many millions you make in a year ?

 

[Forexmospherian]

How many millions you make in a year ?

Lol - I wish -its amazing what you can part own or have shares in that still can make a good return without having to invest hundreds of thousands in - never mind millions

 

[Shakone]

But extrapolating from ones own limitations and making generalisations about what is or is not possible in the face of all evidence to the contrary, even from members on this very board, is really nothing but denial of reality to makes ones own shortcomings easier to handle, and nothing but typical behaviour of those who can't, and thus try to convince themselves and their fellow sufferers that there no need for despair as no one else can either.

Well, extrapolating from other people's successes and making generalisations about what is or is not likely for oneself or for anyone else on this board in the face of all evidence to the contrary, even from members of this board, prop firms, brokers, hedge funds, banks and even some of the wizards themselves, is really nothing but denial of reality to make ones failure seem ok, because there is still hope of becoming like these outliers you listed ... one day.

 

[tar]

Most prop traders lose :

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/first-steps/166016-95-lose-6.html#post2068914

a quick google, the stats for Tuco were

206 traders

33 were profitable (16% of total)

7 had accounts > $50k in profits (3% of total)


So 26 people of those 33 were profitable, but not enough to make >50K a year, how many of those 26 would have eventually called it quits? i reckon most would have eventually found a better paying line of work..

 

[counter_violent]

Since when were yachts classed as investments?

Now that is a very expensive hobby !

 

[Forexmospherian]

Since when were yachts classed as investments?

Now that is a very expensive hobby !

Not if its used for so called "Charity work" ;-)) ( but I don't mean 100ft + luxury gin palaces )

Its amazing how so many people profit from their charitable donations - but that's yet again a whole different ballgame

 

[VielGeld]

Well, extrapolating from other people's successes and making generalisations about what is or is not likely for oneself or for anyone else on this board in the face of all evidence to the contrary, even from members of this board, prop firms, brokers, hedge funds, banks and even some of the wizards themselves, is really nothing but denial of reality to make ones failure seem ok, because there is still hope of becoming like these outliers you listed ... one day.

Precisely my opinion.

Random was, imo, speaking for the average trader. These guys who made millions are the outliers -- as with any industry.

I would much rather listen to what is more probable as a successful person in X industry than the high-fliers who somehow made millions. No matter what, very few will reach these heights, and you don't need to either to make a decent living.

 

[BSD]

Either you benchmark to see what is possible, or define your own objectives.

Then you seek to emulate or achieve that.

You don't get to fly to the moon by listening to everyone who said it isn't possible.

You don't get to run 100 m in under 10 seconds by listening to everyone who said it isn't possible.

Jack Welch didn't turn General Electric into one of the most successful firms in the world by listening to all the naysayers, no, he did it the only way you can achieve sthg like that, by setting what he called stretch goals, goals that at first glance seemed impossible to achieve, particularly for the majority of negative naysayers permeating most walks of life, and through staying the course and with full commitment he did that, he achieved his vision of GE becoming Top Dog.

Guys let's face it, most people will never earn more in markets than they lose, that's the same everywhere in life where not many get what they want, but let's also face it, trading is about simple principles, every single successful person I've talked with or many of the people I've cited stress the fact that their trading methods aren't rocket science, the difference between success in trading and lack of it is mainly down to laziness , lack of 100% commitment, lack of 100% focus, ability to handle losing streaks with ease and detachment, and plain most people preferring to be right over making money.

What turned my trading around, and I'm liviong from this, trading from home, is a book that's 100 years old, Reminscences of a stock operator.

 

[counter_violent]

Either you benchmark to see what is possible, or define your own objectives.

Then you seek to emulate or achieve that.

You don't get to fly to the moon by listening to everyone who said it isn't possible.

You don't get to run 100 m in under 10 seconds by listening to everyone who said it isn't possible.

Jack Welch didn't turn General Electric into one of the most successful firms in the world by listening to all the naysayers, no, he did it the only way you can achieve sthg like that, by setting what he called stretch goals, goals that at first glance seemed impossible to achieve, particularly for the majority of negative naysayers permeating most walks of life, and through staying the course and with full commitment he did that, he achieved his vision of GE becoming Top Dog.

Guys let's face it, most people will never earn more in markets than they lose, that's the same everywhere in life where not many get what they want, but let's also face it, trading is about simple principles, every single successful person I've talked with or many of the people I've cited stress the fact that their trading methods aren't rocket science, the difference between success in trading and lack of it is mainly down to laziness , lack of 100% commitment, lack of 100% focus, ability to handle losing streaks with ease and detachment, and plain most people preferring to be right over making money.

What turned my trading around, and I'm liviong from this, trading from home, is a book that's 100 years old, Reminscences of a stock operator.

I expect you mean, "sitting on your hands and doing nothing"
It's amazing just how much money that can save you !

 

[BSD]

Oh and btw, as has been mentioned quite a few times already, the guys twi was trading with and talking about at that prop firm making anything from 25 - 100% / month were not making millions, they were keeping several K in their accounts and clearing surpluses out at the end of the month.

Marty Schwartz in, umm, Market Wizards from the 80's who was averaging out at 33% / month, audited, or Tony Oz, were running their accounts up quite a bit more, but Schwartz also didn't get his trading method to mesh with runing large amounts of OPM.

What doesn't change doesn't change, with smaller funds large returns are very possible, the bigger you get the smaller the monthly returns will be.

 

[BSD]

I expect you mean, "sitting on your hands and doing nothing"
It's amazing just how much money that can save you !

Haha. Yes, that, and letting the market do the work for me.

I don't care about being right a lot, what makes me happier is having larger wins than losers.

THAT is really what drives my model, cutting losers and letting winners run.

The rest is also not unimportant, ie defining trend and looking for a good spot to get in ,either breakouts or pullbacks, no mean reversion stuff for me thank you very much, but I'd say that most of it for me is being able to hold on tight to good winners, without letting frequent losers psych me out.

 

[sonofcablemonster]

Sigh. Eurgh I've finally given in. I can't take another FXmo fact vs fiction saga and am calling time. I honestly don't know who this is, but I gather he's been around forever and has natural support from the remaining few on the boards...................

It sounds like you have the personality traits of a consistently profitable trader, this may no be compatible with public message boards.

Do you offer mentorships? I can throw in a few girls.

 

[Liquid validity]

:| Still not sure how or why the last few pages have happened...
This is one of those times when you are supposed to take sides,
personally, that is the last thing I want to do.

Its a shame as Random and BSD both have a lot to offer here.
Worse still it seems to be a case of crossed wires.

I think the problem is neither of you are particularly aware of the others
historical posts, and so face value posts without context have
been taken the wrong way.

Its a shame, because if you both took the trouble to read quite a few of the
others posts, as I, and many others have done, you might realise neither of
you are that far apart really.
Maybe thats part of the problem, I don't know, I had a sense of this
coming earlier on in this thread...

This is purely about expectation - aim high or have more typical expectations.
Either way, for me thats just a way of putting a goal into perspective.

BSD - Aim high with a chance (albeit slim) of reaching that goal, but more likely,
achieve more than you would have done had you not aimed high.

Random - have more realistic expectations, but potentially
beating those expectations comes as a nice surprise.

Both ways of looking at it strike me as two sides of the same coin.
More than that, I think both ways of looking at it are a function of personality
and personal experiences.

I can guarantee you both, whatever else you agree or disagree on,
you both share the same core principles and foundation that
really matter - risk control.
Everything else is just a by product of that.
I'd be highly surprised if either of you disagree with that

 

[peakoil]

"750%" return, "rich friends" etc. etc.

Well, further to Liquid Validity's last post, this thread's amassed an extraordinarily undeserved five pages, so just before this thread gets any longer, I just want to offer:

(1) my sympathy to anyone (on this forum or elsewhere) who falls on his wallet for anyone promising the earth, moon and sky in return for old fashioned money.

and

(2) my surprise that so many people have even bothered responding. This thread should really have met with the usual couple of cynical responses, and fallen by the wayside a few days later.

Quite unbelievable, it is indeed, that hundreds of posts precede this. Wow indeed.

 

[darktone]

Sorry Billy, i musta missed this earlier.

Originally Posted by darktone
With that said, in simple terms, why do you think Trading in the Zone is no longer relevant to todays market?

Not sure what you mean. Why would it not be relevant?

I was asking random why he thought trading in zone is no longer relevant today. I believe that it is. As do I believe psychology is best put before method.

Originally Posted by random12345 View Post
Method > psychology.

I agree entirely. everything you have said about psychology and discipline stems from this.

If this is true, by the same token, how do some people who have no logical reason to be so, become depressed?

Side note: If you are a smart cookie, have been through your years of schooling to highest level, learning that in order to succeed you have to be right!. How hard would it be for that kind of mindset exist in the uncertainty of the markets?

 

[darktone]

"750%" return, "rich friends" etc. etc.
Quite unbelievable, it is indeed, that hundreds of posts precede this. Wow indeed.

And a good 70 or so posts that you clearly havent blessed your eyes with. Its called a bun fight! ie OT

Random was, imo, speaking for the average trader. These guys who made millions are the outliers -- as with any industry.

Id rather aim to be top tier and have room to fkup V

 

[peakoil]

And a good 70 or so posts that you clearly havent blessed your eyes with. Its called a bun fight! ie OT

I'll take it then that my eyes ought to have better things to do than glance anywhere near the said 70 odd posts. Honestly, I was reasonably amazed that such a thread got anywhere near five pages - given how many wise and sensible folk reside here... :innocent: