MajorMagnuM
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,284
- Likes
- 888
nice pic of that wave
I'm sitting on the 'Holy Grail' system - How can I fund this?
nice pic of that wave
L
Liquid validity
Hmm...750% from 115 trades on EU.
Missed that first time, so not particularly high freq. at all.
So capital recycle time is low.
Sorry mate there are just too many flaws and the credibility gap is ever widening.
Looks like manual backtesting, yet you've tested 1000's of trades in just 2 months.
Sorry but that really does not stack up at all.
That alone is virtually impossible to do manually.
Yet you say you have, and along with that, devised and tweaked
the rules for this amazing system in that space of time...
I think you are confusing strike rate with drawdown.
A high strike rate does not mean excessive drawdown is not possible.
What is the DD percentage?
Credibility is now at zero, sorry.
I thought you may have had a flawed programmed backtest at best,
with roughly 1500-4000 trades per year / instrument.
To be blunt, no one is going to take it seriously now with words alone.
Live calls or live trade statements are the only thing that will do that.
In the absence of that, its just another flawed or BS backtest.
Last edited:
DionysusToast
Legendary member
- Messages
- 5,965
- Likes
- 1,501
If you have not even taken a single live trade using this system, no-one will take it seriously.
Are you so impatient you cannot run it for a week or a month at least?
Are you so impatient you cannot run it for a week or a month at least?
random12345
Established member
- Messages
- 793
- Likes
- 280
People with working retail systems and without a kindly benefactor can only really consider FoF seeding. You can get seeded as a retail trader so long as you're willing to:
- Trade at least 6 months live (though your system is such low frequency I'd personally want at least 12) with decent enough size.
- submit all live statements and an extremely detailed due diligence questionnaire, which would include financial metrics, your background, details of how your system works.
- prove it can scale.
- submit a detailed backtest analysis.
- take home about 20-25% of what you make plus a 1-2% kickback to an introducing agent
This is the only way you would secure outside money without security and without revealing how your system works.
You should also think what would 20% on say 2 million look like plus all the associated restrictions. A junior fund can't gate so if you get a 15+% drawdown prepare to have all your capital taken away... plus the reality if things go well - if you seed a junior fund 2 million and that fund makes 25% after costs then the principal is looking at 100 grand share... for all that work and stress...
You mention that you know HNW individuals who could likely be talked into a better split. If this is true and your whole thread isn't BS then that is by far your best option, just make sure to get a proper loan agreement drawn up with a lawyer involved.
- Trade at least 6 months live (though your system is such low frequency I'd personally want at least 12) with decent enough size.
- submit all live statements and an extremely detailed due diligence questionnaire, which would include financial metrics, your background, details of how your system works.
- prove it can scale.
- submit a detailed backtest analysis.
- take home about 20-25% of what you make plus a 1-2% kickback to an introducing agent
This is the only way you would secure outside money without security and without revealing how your system works.
You should also think what would 20% on say 2 million look like plus all the associated restrictions. A junior fund can't gate so if you get a 15+% drawdown prepare to have all your capital taken away... plus the reality if things go well - if you seed a junior fund 2 million and that fund makes 25% after costs then the principal is looking at 100 grand share... for all that work and stress...
You mention that you know HNW individuals who could likely be talked into a better split. If this is true and your whole thread isn't BS then that is by far your best option, just make sure to get a proper loan agreement drawn up with a lawyer involved.
OrderFlowDashPro
Member
- Messages
- 76
- Likes
- 9
Sorry if I put a damper on your enthusiasm but it is rather hard to capitalize on even very high returning systems -- even those systems that have proven themselves with real money in real-time. Unlike what many traders who haven't had success in building systems believe, building a great performing system is not a path too instant riches and it is rather hard to capitalize on such results without sufficient own funds.
First, you want to make sure you protect your system and don't share the rules with any "proprietary" firms. From having built successful systems, it is not uncommon to find other hedge funds who are trading similar things but there is no reason to give it to them.
You can trade it with your own funds but if you don't it with at least $50,000 or even $100,000 in some cases then no serious fund will care. I know that many people have been told just to trade your account with a small amount of real capital and then investors will come: they won't. The minimum level is around $50,000. So, if you want to build a track record plan on bringing that to the table to start with.
Selling the signals to individuals isn't hugely profitable for most but a few do quite well -- like anything. As you have a Forex system, it may be worth a go because you can get more subscribers. At any rate, you should start to trade the system with real capital and make sure it performs in-line with your estimates.
First, you want to make sure you protect your system and don't share the rules with any "proprietary" firms. From having built successful systems, it is not uncommon to find other hedge funds who are trading similar things but there is no reason to give it to them.
You can trade it with your own funds but if you don't it with at least $50,000 or even $100,000 in some cases then no serious fund will care. I know that many people have been told just to trade your account with a small amount of real capital and then investors will come: they won't. The minimum level is around $50,000. So, if you want to build a track record plan on bringing that to the table to start with.
Selling the signals to individuals isn't hugely profitable for most but a few do quite well -- like anything. As you have a Forex system, it may be worth a go because you can get more subscribers. At any rate, you should start to trade the system with real capital and make sure it performs in-line with your estimates.
Last edited:
DionysusToast
Legendary member
- Messages
- 5,965
- Likes
- 1,501
I've seen a trader who had NEVER PLACED A TRADE get funded to the extent of $100k which the fund in question considered a "toe in the water". This was merely based on the fact he'd been a researcher for a great trader and they put money in on the off chance that some of that skill would have rubbed off.
Shame he put the money into an MFG account 2 weeks before it went TU.
This was hedge fund money. A boutique fund that essentially funds traders at high levels on a profit split. Normal funding is in the 10's of millions so to them $100k was really a throwaway.
There is tonnes of money swilling around out there but it's really about having the right connections. Walking in cold is tough.
I know a guy that right now that is looking for traders to join a new prop firm in the US and has asked me if he knows any traders that are interested. I ask people and they say yes. Then I tell them they'll be swinging 500 lots and they run for the hills.
The availability of funds is absolutely no issue at all. The problem is having contacts with the people that have access to the money. So you need to start doing some networking. So get your a$$ to London or Singapore or whichever financial center is closest to you and get into the networking events there.
A while back, someone with a computerized system applied cold to Futex. The upshot is that they would let him trade it but only if they could show their tech guys the code. So to him, that was a no-go - after all - once you let them see the code, you are screwed and anyway it's not as if your automated coding is going to bypass their back-end risk management systems. They really have no cause to see your code but could ask for an in-house forward test and on that basis go or no-go.
There are no minimums when it comes to building a track record. Despite what 'experts' on here say. You could start with $1000 and show consistency over 3 months and that will be enough to have people paying attention.
At the end of the day - people with money are looking for a return. Money is not the commodity. People that can make a return on money are the commodity.
Put yourself in the shoes of the people that are sitting on tons of money and trying to get a return for their investors. You think they wont fall over themselves to fund you if you can prove it works in real time?
I do know a guy that runs a quant software firm. These guys lease their system, they do not trade systems themselves but lease them to hedge funds. The characteristic of most of these systems is that they are longer term currency spread systems. They will have down months but they make returns every year.
I chat with the CEO of this firm a lot - as he's also a scalper - he's in the quant business and he has never seen any firm come up with a system that trades directionally long term and makes money.
If you genuinely think you have something to offer these people - you need to trade it for a short period - say a quarter. Then they will talk to you. I'd introduce you to the quant firm guy myself but he will not listen to someone that has just backtested a system.
Shame he put the money into an MFG account 2 weeks before it went TU.
This was hedge fund money. A boutique fund that essentially funds traders at high levels on a profit split. Normal funding is in the 10's of millions so to them $100k was really a throwaway.
There is tonnes of money swilling around out there but it's really about having the right connections. Walking in cold is tough.
I know a guy that right now that is looking for traders to join a new prop firm in the US and has asked me if he knows any traders that are interested. I ask people and they say yes. Then I tell them they'll be swinging 500 lots and they run for the hills.
The availability of funds is absolutely no issue at all. The problem is having contacts with the people that have access to the money. So you need to start doing some networking. So get your a$$ to London or Singapore or whichever financial center is closest to you and get into the networking events there.
A while back, someone with a computerized system applied cold to Futex. The upshot is that they would let him trade it but only if they could show their tech guys the code. So to him, that was a no-go - after all - once you let them see the code, you are screwed and anyway it's not as if your automated coding is going to bypass their back-end risk management systems. They really have no cause to see your code but could ask for an in-house forward test and on that basis go or no-go.
There are no minimums when it comes to building a track record. Despite what 'experts' on here say. You could start with $1000 and show consistency over 3 months and that will be enough to have people paying attention.
At the end of the day - people with money are looking for a return. Money is not the commodity. People that can make a return on money are the commodity.
Put yourself in the shoes of the people that are sitting on tons of money and trying to get a return for their investors. You think they wont fall over themselves to fund you if you can prove it works in real time?
I do know a guy that runs a quant software firm. These guys lease their system, they do not trade systems themselves but lease them to hedge funds. The characteristic of most of these systems is that they are longer term currency spread systems. They will have down months but they make returns every year.
I chat with the CEO of this firm a lot - as he's also a scalper - he's in the quant business and he has never seen any firm come up with a system that trades directionally long term and makes money.
If you genuinely think you have something to offer these people - you need to trade it for a short period - say a quarter. Then they will talk to you. I'd introduce you to the quant firm guy myself but he will not listen to someone that has just backtested a system.
Last edited:
tar
Legendary member
- Messages
- 10,443
- Likes
- 1,314
No you don't have a profitable forex system anyway take this suggestion , go to Collective2 open a signal provider account costs 120 dollars / 6 months , trade your own system there and put the price tag you want you will get many subscribers if your claims are true . Another suggestion if you think you can make 750-1000% annually then you can start with a micro account wit Oanda for example and make 100 fold of gains after 2 years or wait for 3 years and turn 1k to 1M .
L
Liquid validity
Largely agree with the rest of your post, but I'm not sure this quote
is applicable here?
His frequency is too low for 3 months to generate a decent sample size.
I'm not going to argue over whether you know people who would
back a live test with a $1K bankroll, if you do fair enough.
Personally, for me a live test with an account that small risks
skewing a few things.
$1K pretty much means micro lots, so no partial fills or extended fill time
from time to time (basically average fill speed is reduced).
Yes its arguable that is a minor point for a low frequency test,
but then sample size rears its head as mentioned earlier.
I don't know it may or may not be a minor point, but I think a live test (other than live bug testing)
should be 1-3 lots minimum.
Even if its not essential as you say, it certainly can't hurt and goes in his favour.
tar
Legendary member
- Messages
- 10,443
- Likes
- 1,314
Agree , 1k with 3 months track record is meaningless and wont get you any attention ...
DionysusToast
Legendary member
- Messages
- 5,965
- Likes
- 1,501
I disagree - if you go prop with this - you'd still have to put trades through their risk management systems.
They could let you loose with small size initially, knowing you couldn't do any damage at all it if went tits up - their risk managers could simply shut you down.
DaxDestroyer
Established member
- Messages
- 661
- Likes
- 125
L
Liquid validity
Yeah but the whole point is a 3 month minilot record would open the floodgates
to every muppet with a curve fitted or untested method.
Why would they waste their time.
A decent timespan, decent sample size & decent bankroll test is a good
sh1t filter if nothing else.
The only reason not to do so is if they are earning from the trials...
On another note, I wouldn't chuck my own money at a 3 month, low sample size minilot record,
so I would hardly expect anyone else who was serious to do so either.
Last edited:
L
Liquid validity
To the OP, I'd seriously suggest you do some extensive research on TST yourself
if you have decided to try it.
I initially posted the link with only a cursory understanding of how TST works.
Looking a bit closer, not sure I would recommend it now, but I can't edit my original post.
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/trading-firms/176392-top-step-trader.html
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/trading-firms/176392-top-step-trader-5.html#post2264046
Last edited:
BSD
Veteren member
- Messages
- 3,819
- Likes
- 988
I saw the system
DionysusToast
Legendary member
- Messages
- 5,965
- Likes
- 1,501
I start considering to contact you
Well - here I am.
DionysusToast
Legendary member
- Messages
- 5,965
- Likes
- 1,501
It's a no brainer for a prop firm. They waste plenty of time on interns that fall by the wayside.
Anyway - I'm not discussing theoretical scenarios here, just telling what occurred with someone I know that approached a prop shop with similar claims and decided against it when they asked to see the code.
L
Liquid validity
Fair enough, can't say I blame him either.
BSD
Veteren member
- Messages
- 3,819
- Likes
- 988
I really love these guys who claim to have invented the wheel or the web or found da holy grail or whatever is the BS flavour of the month, yet have the math skills of a chimp stoned on a joint.
50K @ 750% is 450 after ONE year.
3.2 MILLION in the second year.
30 MILLION in year three.
http://www.moneychimp.com/calculator/compound_interest_calculator.htm
But, yeah, guys, gimme a hand, my 50k isn't enough, yo.
THAT's why these guys are posting on boards BEFORE the fact, instead of coming up with a proven and audited track record AFTER they've implemeted their, err, holy grail.
