I'm going mad with SB brokers please help!

[Tired_Of_Conmen]

Hi all

I know this is an age-old issue but please don't let that put you off helping me!!

I am NOT new to markets, trading systems, TA, etc.. I have studied market trading for years and have been demoing on paper successfully for quite a while now.

Also, I am well versed in the pros and cons of spreadbetting vs other forms of trading.

But...

I want to go live trading now. It's time.

I have been pulling my hair out for weeks reading reviews of SB brokers trying to find one I can trust at least in part. I live near London and I am familiar with the whole City trading/gambling image and the addiction of gambling/spreadbetting that maybe people from other countries (or other parts of Britain) probably don't even know exist in the UK! We are the worst nation for gamblers bar none. I was drinking with a guy in London a few months back who told me about the bets employees make between each other within trading companies you wouldn't even believe! They may have well been quoting spreads on how many times a guy goes to the toilet every day!! They all love the gamble, not the focussed discipline required to actually be successful at this game.

That said, tight spreads, tax-free and low start-up costs make SB very very attractive to me and others and I want (if really (AND I MEAN REALLY) possible) to start my live trading via SB. I would probably research other trading vehicles in time but SB looks great in theory.

However, if it's going to be a big con and nightmare in reality, then I'll forget it. I'll save up a little more and trade CFDs or something like that. But I don't really want the hassle of currency fluctuations in my trades, which is what you suffer with CFDs. The money management opportunities that SB can offer are amazing - another big tick for SB!

But the world ain't perfect. Now... I know they're bookies, but they promise to hedge our bets so it doesn't matter (in theory) if we win or lose, but then I hear horror stories all over the net of price skewing, spikes, requotes, misfills, delays and, basically, what I would call:

"illegal and immoral theft by London City wide-boys who commute in from Essex every morning to rob us blind by misquoting the markets whilst drinking their lunchtime away in the local trendy Bar One."

(Imagine the actor Danny Dyer in a sharp suit, holding a bottle of lager outside a trendy City bar, surrounded by other suits and hot office girls, shaking your hand with a wink and a grin, then robbing your pockets whilst baffling you with wide-boy market ramblings... then after robbing you patting you on the back, another wink and walks away saying "Be lucky Geezer!!" - yes this is basically your typical London City trader/broker salesman/spreadbetting trader/sales guy etc etc I see it every day of my life up there in the Sh*tty. Sorry, I meant "City".)

Look, here he is now... or is that him there...

Ok, so now I have vented, can anyone please please please just throw down the gauntlet and give an honest, open, true answer as to whether I am just simply wasting my time looking for an honest spreadbet broker who wont play dirty tricks, but rather just let me trade profitably and take my winnings when I want. I would like to still be doing business with any such trustworthy SB broker 10 years from now.

The market is hard enough to fight, I do not want to fight my broker. Brokers are supposed to SERVE us clients, to be our gateway into the markets. If they are working against you, you have no chance, literally.

I have heard good and bad from pretty much every SB broker, from IG to Prospreads, from CMC to Capital, from Finspreads to Cantor, from City to PaddyPower, etc etc it goes on and on.

Note: I daytrade. I do not scalp or enter/exit within 30 seconds or anything like that (unless I have to due to bad timing) but rather my trades may last anywhere from 5mins to 4 hours.

All I want is normal modern-day spreads (eg: 2pip EURUSD, 1pip FTSE), I want quick fills at the price they quote as I hit my mouse button, I want to be able to suddenly get out 10 seconds later if the market suddenly turns (I don't scalp but I do daytrade). I don't want spikes on the damn charts!!! I don't want to have to ring them up and argue with that Danny Dyer wide-boy about a bad tick!!!

Bottom line: my trading method WORKS. I need a broker (preferably SB) that works too.

Please can someone advise?

Thanking you all

T_O_C

 

[0007]

I've had absolutely no trouble with IG with trades lasting from 30 mins to a couple of days.

I think its very easy to become overly obsessed with "tight spreads" and saving micro-pence when effort can be better rewarded with improving one's technique. If you have a decent, reliable and profitable system then SB costs are a relatively minor consideration. Reliability of the platform and provision / fill of your required instrument are essentials IMHO. I take the view that what, if anything, I lose with wider spreads I can get back with better reliability - after all, if you want some more money just do a few more trades. I've aslo used CS without problem [primarily as a backup].

But of course, for the very-short term trader then spreads become more significant. I like an easy life so I tried to design it out of my system, which is why I don't bother much with fx and go for shares (GB & US) with a good but not ridiculously high volatility and such a vast range of choice that my scan will pick up at least a couple of trades every day. [isn't that the MO of Mr. Charts as explained on his thread?].

I believe in looking after my trading technique [as you appear to have already done] - the profits and spreads will take care of themselves. Perhaps I'm just lucky not to have experineced some of the SB horror stories reported on T2W?

 

[Tired_Of_Conmen]

Thanks for a quick and useful reply.

Do you use stops laid with the broker or just from your head? If you lay them with IG, do they get hit magically by bad ticks?

Have you any experience with ODL/FXCM spreadbetting? Seems for FX bets they hedge 100% as they spreadbet in lots NOT pounds per pence. This means they never hold a FX spreadbet position against you ever, they are therefore on your side.

I would rather, like you said, pay a tiny bit more in spreads for reliability in platform AND in fills. I'm tempted to go with ODL simply due to the "no requote / 100% hedge" promise. If it's true, then it's surely the best way to SB? (Note they talk about this promise in FX only, not so much in indices etc but FX is fine for me).

Thanks again

 

[0007]

I always use a broker stop which is a long way from any likely action - this serves as an emergency worst case get out - deals with gaps and spikes etc and i know my max risk (subject to the world falling apart). I have my personal stop (mental) which if breached I know the trade has failed and it's time to go - you can of course get out before this. Using this system I've never experienced any of the "tricks" reported. In my days of placing my mental stop with the broker (don't do it anymore) it was nearly always executed spot on but occasionally had a small amount of slippage.

Only ever used IG & CS so can't speak for the others. The platform & interface are important to me - bit like driving your car: if it handles badly it'll drive you nuts. I think you have to try the SBs and see what happens - I treat them like my doctor, dentist, lawyer, plumber: if you find a good one - stick with it until things change [Isaac Newton's second law of trading]!

 

[Tired_Of_Conmen]

Hey!

So are you saying Capital Spreads are good also? Why would you prefer IG over them or do you think they're basically the same?

Maybe I should just try IG and see what happens. Yet I have heard the price manipulation horror stories and it makes me feel sick. Going "live" is going to be a hard enough attack on my emotions without fighting dodgy broker tactics.

Aren't there any honest broker guys in the world anymore who actually fulfill what they promise??! Well, you say IG so I'm gonna trust you as you sound like you know what you are talking about, but the first sign of trouble and I'm closing my account, I must be strict about this. If I start winning decent % gains and my account starts growing I do not want any hassle or bullsh*t from them else I walk!

Sorry to keep being negative about all this but I want to get this right from the word GO!

Also, I just read T2W's reviews on ODL... hmmmm.... seems yet again another poor bucket shop from what people have said

I'm getting so sick and tired of all this!! I know how to trade (I think anyway) I have been in the game on paper successfully for long enough, I just didn't realise the world of brokers was harder than actually learning to trade successfully! Seriously!! That's how I'm seeing it right now!

I feel like I'm back at that point in learning TA methods where you are lost in a forest of methods and ideas and it takes years to realise that all methods are pretty good it's just up to YOU as a trader to like it, learn it, stick with it and own it.

I really am positive about my trading career I just feel so dejected all of a sudden by the many many days of solid broker review-reading I have just done... makes me want to chuck it all in already!! (JOKE!! But you get my point!!)

Thanks

 

[top trader]

Why don't you 2 a/c, one with IG and the other one with Capital and find out yourself which one is better for you?

One thing to remember is the spike. It occurs with real furures as well therefore you can't and shouldn't blame s/b for it.

As far as spreads are concern Capital has lower spreads than IG. The spreads are important for scalpers & very short time, volume and frequent traders. I bet even if they offer zero spreads most will still loose money.

Good luck.

 

[Tired_Of_Conmen]

Top Trader

Thanks for advice. Yeah spikes are a nightmare. Just seems the good old unregulated FX market is notorious for them and bucketshop brokers/market makers are REALLY notorious for them! Frankly it's not acceptable but it's not a perfect world. I guess we need to "factor" that into our trading method. Geez, as if it ain't all hard enough already!!

I think really this is a case of "suck it and see". Like you advised, maybe I should just open an account with, say, IG Index and just see what happens. If all goes well, then nothing more to be said. But if (or more like "when" by the sounds of it) they start their games, instantly close and move to Capital Spreads. Then to Cantor. Then to Spreadex, and so on!! But never to CMC or Finspreads, right? I've heard just way too much about these 2 cowboy companies. CMC (aka Steal4Free) and Finspreads (the ugly sister of City) I've heard just requote you to death and open/close positions you never instructed!! Sod that! I need at least some reliability from the start, so yes ok IG it is until the games start.

Thanks for your help! Anyone else want to throw some opinions into the ring here? I really am grateful to hear them!

 

[Tired_Of_Conmen]

Oh, one thing I was looking at - Tradefair. Anyone have any experience with it? Basically "serious" sports gamblers seem to use Betfair, and Betfair made Tradefair. So it already carries a semi-decent reputation with it straight away.

Anyone know any horror stories from these guys?

Thanks a million

EDIT: I know Tradefair is owned by LCG and therefore all in that same basket, but these individual companies all have their own responsibility to hold on to customers and not screw them over. So I'm hoping a quality name like Betfair/Tradefair might, just might, have some upstanding morals about them.

EDIT2: Just read a few more reviews about Tradefair, they seem to be a fair enough SB broker as far as SB brokers go. People seem to have had decent enough experiences with them. Have opened a demo then will open a live... let's see how this goes!!

 

[cesarmonty]

Don't use GFT - a pile of ----. I use Oanda as i only trade Fx and get instant fills, tight spreads,and cannot lose more than in your account. (spread widen during news releases can be a bit of a pain), a FAB broker. Only problem is the application process and depositing of funds (take about a week) Looking at Prospreads as a uk spread betting option at the moment as the spreads are lower but they require you to be quite experienced and are geared towards scalpers

 

[orangesunset]

Top Trader

Thanks for advice. Yeah spikes are a nightmare. Just seems the good old unregulated FX market is notorious for them and bucketshop brokers/market makers are REALLY notorious for them! Frankly it's not acceptable but it's not a perfect world. I guess we need to "factor" that into our trading method. Geez, as if it ain't all hard enough already!!

I think really this is a case of "suck it and see". Like you advised, maybe I should just open an account with, say, IG Index and just see what happens. If all goes well, then nothing more to be said. But if (or more like "when" by the sounds of it) they start their games, instantly close and move to Capital Spreads. Then to Cantor. Then to Spreadex, and so on!! But never to CMC or Finspreads, right? I've heard just way too much about these 2 cowboy companies. CMC (aka Steal4Free) and Finspreads (the ugly sister of City) I've heard just requote you to death and open/close positions you never instructed!! Sod that! I need at least some reliability from the start, so yes ok IG it is until the games start.

Thanks for your help! Anyone else want to throw some opinions into the ring here? I really am grateful to hear them!

Research on firms such as CMC reveals just how dishonest are their methods. If you get the chance speak to people who used to work for them or others with inside information. Have been told that they use all manner of tricks such as spikes and requoting to enhance their profits to the disadvantage of their clients. As a result the vast majority of traders end up losing. Amazing that the regulators such as the financial ombudsman claim to be unable to do anything about it - which makes them suspicious as well. Advice must be to steer well clear of anything that is not clearly and obviously above board.

 

[cesarmonty]

I use an independant data feed and ensign windows as a charting software package I know when these SB companies are playing games So I do not use them. I will be testing ProSpreads shortly and will post when i have a view.

 

[montmorencyt2w]

Oh, one thing I was looking at - Tradefair. Anyone have any experience with it? Basically "serious" sports gamblers seem to use Betfair, and Betfair made Tradefair. So it already carries a semi-decent reputation with it straight away.

Anyone know any horror stories from these guys?

Thanks a million

EDIT: I know Tradefair is owned by LCG and therefore all in that same basket, but these individual companies all have their own responsibility to hold on to customers and not screw them over. So I'm hoping a quality name like Betfair/Tradefair might, just might, have some upstanding morals about them.

EDIT2: Just read a few more reviews about Tradefair, they seem to be a fair enough SB broker as far as SB brokers go. People seem to have had decent enough experiences with them. Have opened a demo then will open a live... let's see how this goes!!

Yes, Tradefair are ok. Goodish spreads. Relatively simple, intuitive platform.
No fancy stuff like trailing stops, but I think those are best done manually anyway.
I haven't had any major problem with them in around 6 months.

IG and CS also ok.

Good idea to get some experience on the demo, if only to learn the "mechanics" of opening and closing trades, setting stops and take-profits, etc.

 

[pit pony]

Oh, one thing I was looking at - Tradefair. Anyone have any experience with it? Basically "serious" sports gamblers seem to use Betfair, and Betfair made Tradefair. So it already carries a semi-decent reputation with it straight away.

Anyone know any horror stories from these guys?

Thanks a million

EDIT: I know Tradefair is owned by LCG and therefore all in that same basket, but these individual companies all have their own responsibility to hold on to customers and not screw them over. So I'm hoping a quality name like Betfair/Tradefair might, just might, have some upstanding morals about them.

EDIT2: Just read a few more reviews about Tradefair, they seem to be a fair enough SB broker as far as SB brokers go. People seem to have had decent enough experiences with them. Have opened a demo then will open a live... let's see how this goes!!

I have had accounts with IG & Capital, but closed them when i came across ProSpreads, i had to up my size but find the platform funtionality, spreads and customer service so much better than any other SB.Its the closest you can get to arcade trading but cheaper, with the only cost's , the spread.

 

[William Waller]

I think IG is fine - they have their detractors like everyone, but overall reviews seem positive.

I haven't used FXCM but I love the charting package that they have (not great if you need loads of indicators though). Fortunately, I dare to bare.

Sir William

 

[Hoggums]

Been trading with IG for 4 years - no problems. Usually instant fills. Occassionally goes to the trading desk but they never refuse the quote. Sometimes my deep in/out money options cannot be closed online - but a quick phonecall to close is easy and very often they give me a better price than the online quote.

I like the way they allow simultaneous buy & sell positions and aggregate margin on buy/sell option and futures combinations - comes in handy for hedging without locking up large portions of the account.

 

[tommac]

I`m currently using IG (for years) and SmartLive (new but loving it) no problems with either--remember those that slag off on BB`s are in the main losers. As above- Oanda for forex if you want to trade small-you can trade tiny if needs be.

 

[Tired_Of_Conmen]

I`m currently using IG (for years) and SmartLive (new but loving it) no problems with either--remember those that slag off on BB`s are in the main losers. As above- Oanda for forex if you want to trade small-you can trade tiny if needs be.

Tommac - with all respect I understand your point that loser can blame others easier, but I also cannot believe that all of these very well known problems with spreadbetting companies (spikes, freezes and requotes) only happen with "losers".

Look at it properly: the SB company HAS to be X% broker and Y% bookie. Why? Coz the underlying market doesn't work in pennies, it works in lots. So they cannot hedge penny for penny the moment you click your mouse. They have complex systems to work out when and where to hedge BUT this can only be X% satisfactory. Anything unhedged or badly hedged means.... that's right, they have to become a bookie to cover these potential losses. Now this is where you see spikes and foul play - it's like a sports bookie at this point in that it has to account for Y% losses. That's where some unlucky people get stung. Those that get stung are prob those who has won a decent return recently and so the bookie feels that can hand back some of it without becoming an angry/disheartened customer. And the cycle continues. Clever a*seholes aren't they?

I ask anyone reading this who works for a SB company to come explain why I am wrong.

But I'm not.

Unfortuantly.

EDIT: Actually makes you wonder: if you became "one of the 5%" and made constant successful trades to build a small account up to a large account... would the SB even allow this to happen/pay your money if you withdrew it? Playing with a grand or two with these guys is probably ok, but supposing 5 years from now that grand is a hundred grand? It's not like some people aren't making these kind of returns in today's markets. Would the SB broker/bookie close your account due to "inappropriate trading "and find a way to legally not pay you the whole account size? Again, I've heard many horror stories....................

 

[0007]

EDIT: Actually makes you wonder: if you became "one of the 5%" and made constant successful trades to build a small account up to a large account... would the SB even allow this to happen/pay your money if you withdrew it? Playing with a grand or two with these guys is probably ok, but supposing 5 years from now that grand is a hundred grand? It's not like some people aren't making these kind of returns in today's markets. Would the SB broker/bookie close your account due to "inappropriate trading "and find a way to legally not pay you the whole account size? Again, I've heard many horror stories....................

But you wouldn't keep £100k with a SB broker would you? If you risk say, a sensible 2% of your trading wealth you don't have to keep all of the other 98% with the SB Co. Better off drip-extracting it and employing it elsewhere - it's so easy to transfer money around electronically these days. But if you're talking large amounts there comes a point when direct market access (DMA) is more appropriate - but I'd still keep only the minimum necessary with the broker.

I look upon SB Co's as a useful tool in my trading toolbox: for convenience & relatively small accounts it has its advantages. And for the new and small player with an established edge [easier said than done] it's a good way in.

 

[Tired_Of_Conmen]

But you wouldn't keep £100k with a SB broker would you? If you risk say, a sensible 2% of your trading wealth you don't have to keep all of the other 98% with the SB Co. Better off drip-extracting it and employing it elsewhere - it's so easy to transfer money around electronically these days. But if you're talking large amounts there comes a point when direct market access (DMA) is more appropriate - but I'd still keep only the minimum necessary with the broker.

I look upon SB Co's as a useful tool in my trading toolbox: for convenience & relatively small accounts it has its advantages. And for the new and small player with an established edge [easier said than done] it's a good way in.

Fair points well made

 

[montmorencyt2w]

it's so easy to transfer money around electronically these days.

On this sort of subject, how quickly are people able to withdraw their money from their SB accounts these days?

I find there is some variation. One of my accounts seems to take 2 full days (i.e. I request the withdrawal on a Monday, and I see the dosh in my bank account on Wednesday.

With another account, it always takes a day longer.

I am 99% certain that with another account, I managed to get to see the money on the same day, although I no longer have any money with them now, so can't easily try it again.

Any other reports? Name names if you feel like it

EDIT: I should have made it clear that I was talking about a return to the debit card you had funded the account from. I have a feeling that this mechanism is distinct from BACS (which these days can involve "Faster Payments System" although may not always depending on circumstances).