Icons of the hard Left.

Splitlink

Legendary member
10,850 1,234
Yes, I suppose that there are a few answers for you, there, that I would find difficult to dispute. :)
 

Mr. Charts

Legendary member
7,370 1,194
Crow and Viscount Stansgate might have been sincere, but history is littered with sincere people doing terrible things, stupid things, ignorant things, damaging things.
Many of them have been much loved by their countrymen, e.g. Hitler, "Uncle" Joe Stalin. Obviously Crow and Benn were much lower in the order of unpleasantness, but the bottom line for me is not retrospective assessment of policies and beliefs, but how tolerant of others these people were and even more so, how fanatical they were.

People are easily fooled by the superficial perception of image. Anyone can speak gently, put on an avuncular demeanor and smoke a pipe. Sadly we live in an era of shallowness of opinion and sound/image bites with politicians, and everything else. Much easier to engage in a quick impression than to examine in depth and make the effort to think.
 
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PieterSteidelmayer

Well-known member
283 54
Mr. Charts, It would be indeed useful to have the good guys wear the white hats and the bad guys the black and to ensure everyone wore a hat of course. You were open ranking Mr. Benn as being less unpleasant than Stalin or Hitler, but I wonder if his junior league enormity was a function of your views compared with his, or are you aware of some dire act he committed against humanity as a whole of which I am perhaps unaware?

Mrs. Thatcher could raise similar comments from the other end of the political spectrum, perhaps even more strongly felt in many quarters. Would you place her in the same category of well intentioned but capable of doing terrible, stupid, ignorant, damaging things or is she perhaps more closely allied with your own personal beliefs and ideals and thus escapes inclusion in the Club of Evil?

I am an ardent admirer of Mrs. Thatcher as a person, but found some of her policies and methods bordered on the extreme. So should she have a white hat or a black one?
 

Splitlink

Legendary member
10,850 1,234
Mr. Charts, It would be indeed useful to have the good guys wear the white hats and the bad guys the black and to ensure everyone wore a hat of course. You were open ranking Mr. Benn as being less unpleasant than Stalin or Hitler, but I wonder if his junior league enormity was a function of your views compared with his, or are you aware of some dire act he committed against humanity as a whole of which I am perhaps unaware?

Mrs. Thatcher could raise similar comments from the other end of the political spectrum, perhaps even more strongly felt in many quarters. Would you place her in the same category of well intentioned but capable of doing terrible, stupid, ignorant, damaging things or is she perhaps more closely allied with your own personal beliefs and ideals and thus escapes inclusion in the Club of Evil?

I am an ardent admirer of Mrs. Thatcher as a person, but found some of her policies and methods bordered on the extreme. So should she have a white hat or a black one?

History is written in the eyes of the historian amd black and white are points of view, no doubt about that. The present, or future, contributor to the the world list of follies is with us, right now and we are, probably, cheering him on, without knowing it.

I don't know who you have, in Germany, but, in the UK, a contender could be Ed Balls. He is Labour, of course, he'd have to be, since I am Conservative. :)
 

Pat494

Legendary member
14,621 1,579
Mr. Charts, It would be indeed useful to have the good guys wear the white hats and the bad guys the black and to ensure everyone wore a hat of course. You were open ranking Mr. Benn as being less unpleasant than Stalin or Hitler, but I wonder if his junior league enormity was a function of your views compared with his, or are you aware of some dire act he committed against humanity as a whole of which I am perhaps unaware?

Mrs. Thatcher could raise similar comments from the other end of the political spectrum, perhaps even more strongly felt in many quarters. Would you place her in the same category of well intentioned but capable of doing terrible, stupid, ignorant, damaging things or is she perhaps more closely allied with your own personal beliefs and ideals and thus escapes inclusion in the Club of Evil?

I am an ardent admirer of Mrs. Thatcher as a person, but found some of her policies and methods bordered on the extreme. So should she have a white hat or a black one?

A blue one of course Herr Strudel.
How one can be an ardent admirer of both Benn and Thatcher is obviously impossible purely on a political level of opposites - silly boy.
Equally obviously neither can possibly qualify for the Pure Evil club, of Stalin, Hitler, Mao etc. More the well meant impractical club, I would think.
 

PieterSteidelmayer

Well-known member
283 54
A blue one of course Herr Strudel.
How one can be an ardent admirer of both Benn and Thatcher is obviously impossible purely on a political level of opposites - silly boy.

There's the rub Paddy. If you're not able to see the wood for the trees, your views will always be but but a mirror of someone elses'.
 

Pat494

Legendary member
14,621 1,579
There's the rub Paddy. If you're not able to see the wood for the trees, your views will always be but but a mirror of someone elses'.

Indeed we, the people owe it to ourselves to pick holes in the arguments/beliefs of politicians and not be like the robotic masses that followed Adolf & Co. to destruction. If only more Germans had read and rejected Mein Kampf, a lot of people wouldn't have been killed needlessly.
I think you see your own confusion in others, Noodle.
 

Splitlink

Legendary member
10,850 1,234
Indeed we, the people owe it to ourselves to pick holes in the arguments/beliefs of politicians and not be like the robotic masses that followed Adolf & Co. to destruction. If only more Germans had read and rejected Mein Kampf, a lot of people wouldn't have been killed needlessly.
I think you see your own confusion in others, Noodle.


Not historic, enough. The allies squeezed Germany into an impossible situation, as a punishment for WW1. The same mistake was not repeated after WWII. Thank God, that we learn sometimes! The Dm became more worthless than toilet paper and Germany had to have someone to get them out of the mess that they were in.

Unfortunately, a gang was formed by Hitler and that was that.

We, all, have to be careful of who we vote for in times of crisis but we should not forget the reason for that crisis,

In the UK there was a character called Mosley and, even, Edward VIII was a sympathiser. So there, but for the Grace of God........
 

Pat494

Legendary member
14,621 1,579
I always thought that the Keiser got off lightly for WW1. Retired off to Holland to continue living a life of luxury.
Perhaps the allies should wear white hats to show Strudell & co. who the good guys are, as they can't seem to get it for themselves.

:eek:
 
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darktone

Veteren member
4,016 1,084
The US and most other democracies are so in debt that there are really only two options.
!. Try and reduce debt by cutting costs.
2. Do nothing until everything falls apart and armed gangs roam at will.
1) We are in debt by design Pat. We cant 'reduce' our debt without reducing our money supply. They are the two sides of the same coin, one cannot exist without the other under our current system. The monetary system is what needs changing imo.
2) Yep, but is just one of countless scenarios imo.
 

PieterSteidelmayer

Well-known member
283 54
Indeed we, the people owe it to ourselves to pick holes in the arguments/beliefs of politicians and not be like the robotic masses that followed Adolf & Co. to destruction. If only more Germans had read and rejected Mein Kampf, a lot of people wouldn't have been killed needlessly.
I think you see your own confusion in others, Noodle.
And how do you yourself purposefully go about picking holes in the beliefs/arguments of politicians in order to accept or reject them? And if you reject them, how do you yourself bring about the change necessary to ensure they are not enacted? I'm really interested to know within the construct of a democracy how you do that. You have a vote and that's about it. You don't have day-to-day veto over every piece of legislation that goes through parliament.

The reason Mein Kampf was so popular is because it struck a chord with the majority of Germans at that time (1925) - he was speaking to, and of, the masses whose position was such that anyone championing a resurgence of national pride and a plan to bring it about (or at least someone to blame for its lack) would have had the same support. I understand the British well enough to know had our positions been reversed and you had had your noses pushed into the poo, you'd have got behind anyone with similar charisma and rhetoric, regardless of the validity of their arguments.
 

PieterSteidelmayer

Well-known member
283 54
Indeed we, the people owe it to ourselves to pick holes in the arguments/beliefs of politicians and not be like the robotic masses that followed Adolf & Co. to destruction. If only more Germans had read and rejected Mein Kampf, a lot of people wouldn't have been killed needlessly.
I think you see your own confusion in others, Noodle.
I've just realized what you said.

Are you suggesting that we Germans were responsible for WWII?
 

Pat494

Legendary member
14,621 1,579
And how do you yourself purposefully go about picking holes in the beliefs/arguments of politicians in order to accept or reject them? And if you reject them, how do you yourself bring about the change necessary to ensure they are not enacted? I'm really interested to know within the construct of a democracy how you do that. You have a vote and that's about it. You don't have day-to-day veto over every piece of legislation that goes through parliament.

The reason Mein Kampf was so popular is because it struck a chord with the majority of Germans at that time (1925) - he was speaking to, and of, the masses whose position was such that anyone championing a resurgence of national pride and a plan to bring it about (or at least someone to blame for its lack) would have had the same support. I understand the British well enough to know had our positions been reversed and you had had your noses pushed into the poo, you'd have got behind anyone with similar charisma and rhetoric, regardless of the validity of their arguments.

On a very small scale I do what I can to make a better world by pointing out some of the failures and absurdities presented by posturing politicians. Hopefully others will feel empowered to speak up too. But in the bigger arena politicians here are regularly brought to book depending on the enormity of their faults. Criminal actions are pursued through the courts, the newspapers have done a lot of good work pointing out their failures and of course TV and the internet are now alive and making their views felt. None of the moronic, serf like Heil Hitlering of yester year, oh no that's gone for good hopefully. I fully understand the fatal risks of opposing dictators so I would urge caution. The events in North Africa and beyond have got rid of some of the current world's worst dictators, like Gaddaffi etc.
Maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel ?
BTW your English is excellent - been over here long ?
 
 
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