Icons of the hard Left.

darktone

Veteren member
The US and most other democracies are so in debt that there are really only two options.
!. Try and reduce debt by cutting costs.
2. Do nothing until everything falls apart and armed gangs roam at will.
1) We are in debt by design Pat. We cant 'reduce' our debt without reducing our money supply. They are the two sides of the same coin, one cannot exist without the other under our current system. The monetary system is what needs changing imo.
2) Yep, but is just one of countless scenarios imo.
 

PieterSteidelmayer

Well-known member
Indeed we, the people owe it to ourselves to pick holes in the arguments/beliefs of politicians and not be like the robotic masses that followed Adolf & Co. to destruction. If only more Germans had read and rejected Mein Kampf, a lot of people wouldn't have been killed needlessly.
I think you see your own confusion in others, Noodle.
And how do you yourself purposefully go about picking holes in the beliefs/arguments of politicians in order to accept or reject them? And if you reject them, how do you yourself bring about the change necessary to ensure they are not enacted? I'm really interested to know within the construct of a democracy how you do that. You have a vote and that's about it. You don't have day-to-day veto over every piece of legislation that goes through parliament.

The reason Mein Kampf was so popular is because it struck a chord with the majority of Germans at that time (1925) - he was speaking to, and of, the masses whose position was such that anyone championing a resurgence of national pride and a plan to bring it about (or at least someone to blame for its lack) would have had the same support. I understand the British well enough to know had our positions been reversed and you had had your noses pushed into the poo, you'd have got behind anyone with similar charisma and rhetoric, regardless of the validity of their arguments.
 

PieterSteidelmayer

Well-known member
Indeed we, the people owe it to ourselves to pick holes in the arguments/beliefs of politicians and not be like the robotic masses that followed Adolf & Co. to destruction. If only more Germans had read and rejected Mein Kampf, a lot of people wouldn't have been killed needlessly.
I think you see your own confusion in others, Noodle.
I've just realized what you said.

Are you suggesting that we Germans were responsible for WWII?
 

Pat494

Legendary member
And how do you yourself purposefully go about picking holes in the beliefs/arguments of politicians in order to accept or reject them? And if you reject them, how do you yourself bring about the change necessary to ensure they are not enacted? I'm really interested to know within the construct of a democracy how you do that. You have a vote and that's about it. You don't have day-to-day veto over every piece of legislation that goes through parliament.

The reason Mein Kampf was so popular is because it struck a chord with the majority of Germans at that time (1925) - he was speaking to, and of, the masses whose position was such that anyone championing a resurgence of national pride and a plan to bring it about (or at least someone to blame for its lack) would have had the same support. I understand the British well enough to know had our positions been reversed and you had had your noses pushed into the poo, you'd have got behind anyone with similar charisma and rhetoric, regardless of the validity of their arguments.

On a very small scale I do what I can to make a better world by pointing out some of the failures and absurdities presented by posturing politicians. Hopefully others will feel empowered to speak up too. But in the bigger arena politicians here are regularly brought to book depending on the enormity of their faults. Criminal actions are pursued through the courts, the newspapers have done a lot of good work pointing out their failures and of course TV and the internet are now alive and making their views felt. None of the moronic, serf like Heil Hitlering of yester year, oh no that's gone for good hopefully. I fully understand the fatal risks of opposing dictators so I would urge caution. The events in North Africa and beyond have got rid of some of the current world's worst dictators, like Gaddaffi etc.
Maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel ?
BTW your English is excellent - been over here long ?
 

Pat494

Legendary member
I've just realized what you said.

Are you suggesting that we Germans were responsible for WWII?

:(:(
Surely you are not blaming anyone else are you ?
Just when it seemed I was talking to a man who knew his recent history, however painful !!

People that can't admit their mistakes and the mistakes of their ancestors are bound to repeat them over and over again.
 

PieterSteidelmayer

Well-known member
On a very small scale I do what I can to make a better world by pointing out some of the failures and absurdities presented by posturing politicians.
Pointing out to whom exactly? Anyone that can actually make a difference or just to people on this site?


BTW your English is excellent - been over here long ?
Thank you. You're in Ukraine too? We must meet for a night out, this place is a riot.
 

Mr. Charts

Legendary member
Mr. Charts, It would be indeed useful to have the good guys wear the white hats and the bad guys the black and to ensure everyone wore a hat of course. You were open ranking Mr. Benn as being less unpleasant than Stalin or Hitler, but I wonder if his junior league enormity was a function of your views compared with his, or are you aware of some dire act he committed against humanity as a whole of which I am perhaps unaware?

Mrs. Thatcher could raise similar comments from the other end of the political spectrum, perhaps even more strongly felt in many quarters. Would you place her in the same category of well intentioned but capable of doing terrible, stupid, ignorant, damaging things or is she perhaps more closely allied with your own personal beliefs and ideals and thus escapes inclusion in the Club of Evil?

I am an ardent admirer of Mrs. Thatcher as a person, but found some of her policies and methods bordered on the extreme. So should she have a white hat or a black one?

PS,
I've already mentioned my rule of thumb assessment using tolerance and fanaticism, but obviously there are some things which are 100% right or wrong, but there are many more than 50 shades of grey.
As for your use of "white" and "black", you are perpetuating racial tropes and engendering sub-conscious racism :innocent:

PS, PS,
Your standard of English makes me think you are not German, but a native English speaker or possibly brought up bi-lingually.
Richard
 

PieterSteidelmayer

Well-known member
So Pussy Riot are out there giving moral support to the Ukraine?
I'm sure they will go wherever they can ensure the media can get the best angle on them suffering unprovoked state sponsored brutality.

Listened to (a very small segment of) one of their tracks and I felt similarly motivated.
 

PieterSteidelmayer

Well-known member
PS,
I've already mentioned my rule of thumb assessment using tolerance and fanaticism, but obviously there are some things which are 100% right or wrong, but there are many more than 50 shades of grey.
As for your use of "white" and "black", you are perpetuating racial tropes and engendering sub-conscious racism :innocent:

PS, PS,
Your standard of English makes me think you are not German, but a native English speaker or possibly brought up bi-lingually.
Richard
I put everything through Google translate so can't take any credit.
 

Atilla

Legendary member
I'm sure they will go wherever they can ensure the media can get the best angle on them suffering unprovoked state sponsored brutality.

Listened to (a very small segment of) one of their tracks and I felt similarly motivated.

I think you are great Pieter good to read your bloggs and everybody elses too. Good thread.

For the record I never like Benn. Thought he was a bag of wind. Talked well but was more of a smart alek than anyone useful imo. He also pretty much messed up the Labour party. I see Kinnock as bringing Labour back from the precipice of total oblivion. Sadly, instead of him or John Smith we were left to the likes of TBliar who also got carried away with his self importance. Labour kept that other 'T'-wit in power by being in dissarray and behind on global developments.

What ever one has to say about democracy we need balance. Super-powers need balance too. Thus, I think several parties are essential as are several super-powers. When views/parties become so polarised then extremes follow as we saw in Thatcher and Foot/Ben & Co., resulting in a lot of pooh being dished about.

If we had to look to see if we are better off or not, I wouldn't just look at GDP but many more indicators on health, weight, happiness, education, number of children, pets to age distribution and how many individuals in any household. Crime, people in prisons, people on holiday and most importantly distribution of wealth etc., to have a view if we are better off or not and which parties have contributed to the greater national good.

We need some objective PKI's which are agreed by many professionals and experts not just politicians.
 
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chump

Senior member
And how do you yourself purposefully go about picking holes in the beliefs/arguments of politicians in order to accept or reject them? And if you reject them, how do you yourself bring about the change necessary to ensure they are not enacted? I'm really interested to know within the construct of a democracy how you do that. You have a vote and that's about it. You don't have day-to-day veto over every piece of legislation that goes through parliament.

The reason Mein Kampf was so popular is because it struck a chord with the majority of Germans at that time (1925) - he was speaking to, and of, the masses whose position was such that anyone championing a resurgence of national pride and a plan to bring it about (or at least someone to blame for its lack) would have had the same support. I understand the British well enough to know had our positions been reversed and you had had your noses pushed into the poo, you'd have got behind anyone with similar charisma and rhetoric, regardless of the validity of their arguments.

And how do you yourself purposefully go about picking holes in the beliefs/arguments of politicians

By first of all being humble enough to understand that what you think you know is often has ephemeral as scotch mist. What you think you know depends on where you are standing when you are trying to join a line from your personal experience to the object under consideration. Start from there and try to remove yourself in terms of your bias from your consideration of the issue. Even attempting this creates a rather more open mind less likely to form judgements and reach conclusions based upon bias towards the subject. And yes, Benn was still an highly educated moron :)
 

chump

Senior member
"I believe that France left Germany with few options concerning the eventual outcome. "
Yes, there's a well recognised issue when negotiating that suggests that leaving the other party with no positive outcome opens the door to failure for all. Otherwise known as the ' watch out when you back a rat into a corner'.
 
 
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