Icons of the hard Left.

Atilla

Legendary member
19,850 3,105
The all time example of well meaning do-gooding that went disastrously wrong must surely be Prohition. This gave the mafia and organised crime a huge boost in income and power. The legacy still haunts America today.

I could never understand that either??? Ban alcohol and drugs but keep guns freely available. :confused:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Forexmospherian

Pat494

Legendary member
14,621 1,579
In what way?

The mafia really became hugely powerful in the 1950s controlling large cities in America. The Kennedies fought them and it cost them their lives. The US is riddled with more minor criminals these days as proved by the 2.3 million in prison currently. If each prisoner costs the taxpayers about $100,000 a year plus the costs of an army of law enforcement then that's a lot of money. Way up in the trillions without a single useful return.

2,300,000 * 100,000 + law enforcement = $230,000,000,000 plus ??????????????????

Putin would probably cull 10% a year. The figures would drop substantially. It could come down to letting them go or culling the worst offenders.
 
Last edited:

Forexmospherian

Legendary member
39,928 3,301
I could never understand that either??? Ban alcohol and drugs but keep guns freely available. :confused:

Agree - Its that silly outdated US Constitution Law - ie Bill of Rights / the First Amendment etc

Its a wonder they still don't require a man with a lamp to walk in front of all motorized vehicles

Trouble is most US citizens - just don't see it - and the Gun lobby is just too powerful - and all want shooting!!!!! ( that last bit is a joke ;) )
 

chump

Senior member
2,212 274
The mafia really became hugely powerful in the 1950s controlling large cities in America. The Kennedies fought them and it cost them their lives. The US is riddled with more minor criminals these days as proved by the 2.3 million in prison currently. If each prisoner costs the taxpayers about $100,000 a year plus the costs of an army of law enforcement then that's a lot of money. Way up in the trillions without a single useful return.

2,300,000 * 100,000 + law enforcement = $230,000,000,000 plus ??????????????????

Putin would probably cull 10% a year. The figures would drop substantially. It could come down to letting them go or culling the worst offenders.

On the otherhand I would take the view that economically no harm was done. Policy created demand and supply arose to meet it. Even if it culminated in a rise in criminal activity and a corresponding rise in Law enforcement to counter it arguably no economic damage was done. You have to consider had such a process not arisen exactly what would the labour resources engaged have been doing? Making more Barbie dolls? The issue isn't really an economic one in this case. It's more likely to be judgemental and involves issues of 'good behaviour' and similar arguments which is different from the point I was making. In your case I don't see that policy led to 'waste' ,or inefficiency as such.
My argument against Benn and cohorts is they just don't understand human behaviour that well and as such their policies have been grossly wasteful of human resources. I start from the viewpoint of quality of life. What is it ? I think it is ultimately nothing more than each persons balance as to the degree of stimulation they get from birth to death. There being no universal ideal ,but with each person having a desired balance between too much and too little. Now what creates stimulation? Experiences ,productivity, activity if you like. Basically ,that means the less you do the less stimulation you get ,the lower the quality of your life experience. Hence, I think any policies that lead to people losing the motivation and the means to get a decent balance of life experiences is wasteful and ineffective. I also think that comes about when your policies demotivate them, take away from them issues such as taking personal responsibility for one's actions, understanding that producing for yourself is always going to be more stimulating than not doing so and having what you need given to you. This is the true bill for our nanny state. Too may people robbed of a stimulating life experience ,because politicians like Benn want to make so many of your life decisions for you from birth to death. And I am not surprised he is acclaimed in Germany ,think about it and think about what we know of the German mentality to authority :) .
This isn't really about political ideology. It's about human psychology and the theft of a stimulating life brought about by good intentions and policy based upon that. Don't give me a 'good man' .Give me a man making policy who really understands the potential consequences of his actions.
None of this in my case seeks a case built on the moral highground. I couldn't care less about the majority of people and I make no secret of it so morality doesn't come into it. I just don't appreciate morons making policy.
 
Last edited:

Splitlink

Legendary member
10,850 1,234
The mafia really became hugely powerful in the 1950s controlling large cities in America. The Kennedies fought them and it cost them their lives. The US is riddled with more minor criminals these days as proved by the 2.3 million in prison currently. If each prisoner costs the taxpayers about $100,000 a year plus the costs of an army of law enforcement then that's a lot of money. Way up in the trillions without a single useful return.

2,300,000 * 100,000 + law enforcement = $230,000,000,000 plus ??????????????????

Putin would probably cull 10% a year. The figures would drop substantially. It could come down to letting them go or culling the worst offenders.

Which brings me around to an old theme of mine. There are too many people on the earth, increasing every day, for true democracy to exist. I have never heard the word "culling" used, in ths respect, before but it is a very good one. The world is too full, these days, for villains to be allowed to exist, We cannort afford them.

Unfortunately, it is the thin end of the wedge. It is stated that a hospital, in Toledo, has given instructions not to give beds to 80 year olds. All denied, of course, now that it has come to light, but the problem will have to be faced, sooner or later.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Forexmospherian

PieterSteidelmayer

Well-known member
283 54
And I am not surprised he is acclaimed in Germany ,think about it and think about what we know of the German mentality to authority :) .
Tony Benn never held a position of authority in Germany or to Germans generally. He was admired for being a principled man who stuck to his principles even though unpopular with powerful and influential segments of the British ruling classes.

I'm sure your stereotypical jibe was tongue in cheek as much of your prior discussion has been intelligent and interesting. But for anyone who didn't get the humorous nuance, just consider what a world without slavish attention to detail and the almost obsessive addiction to perfection would be like - no BMW and no Mercedes. Doesn't bear thinking about.
 
  • Like
Reactions: chump

PieterSteidelmayer

Well-known member
283 54
Which brings me around to an old theme of mine. There are too many people on the earth, increasing every day, for true democracy to exist. I have never heard the word "culling" used, in ths respect, before but it is a very good one. The world is too full, these days, for villains to be allowed to exist, We cannort afford them.
I didn't realize democracy was a function of size of population. I suppose at the other end of your logical scale is the population of just one being the only true democracy.

As for culling the 'villains', there are just over 3% of lifers in US prisons who are there on the 3 strike rule. The most recent lifer receiving their sentence for stealing a jersey from a shop, their previous 2 offences being of a similar nature.

If we're going to talk of culling villains maybe we should start with the ones that make up stupid rules for the rest of us?
 

Pat494

Legendary member
14,621 1,579
I didn't realize democracy was a function of size of population. I suppose at the other end of your logical scale is the population of just one being the only true democracy.

As for culling the 'villains', there are just over 3% of lifers in US prisons who are there on the 3 strike rule. The most recent lifer receiving their sentence for stealing a jersey from a shop, their previous 2 offences being of a similar nature.

If we're going to talk of culling villains maybe we should start with the ones that make up stupid rules for the rest of us?

The US and most other democracies are so in debt that there are really only two options.
!. Try and reduce debt by cutting costs.
2. Do nothing until everything falls apart and armed gangs roam at will.

In option 1. the UK is trying to cut debt by reducing costs of :-
a) armed forces costs. We are now largely relying on a partime army of
reservists.
b) pensions. The basic pension of £110 per week barely covers food, let alone other costs.
c) social welfare for the unemployed.
etc.
The Govt even has had the cheek to suggest reducing taxes for the bloated rich !!

How can we depend on democracy to save the situation ? Useless politicians are going to make the usual extravagant promises to get re-eleected, knowing they can't keep them. Britain and the USA never had it as bad as central Europe in the 1930s and therefore can't be expected to understand fascism. As much as I hate Fascism/Communism they did keep the country togethor.
 

Splitlink

Legendary member
10,850 1,234
On the otherhand I would take the view that economically no harm was done. Policy created demand and supply arose to meet it. Even if it culminated in a rise in criminal activity and a corresponding rise in Law enforcement to counter it arguably no economic damage was done. You have to consider had such a process not arisen exactly what would the labour resources engaged have been doing? Making more Barbie dolls? The issue isn't really an economic one in this case. It's more likely to be judgemental and involves issues of 'good behaviour' and similar arguments which is different from the point I was making. In your case I don't see that policy led to 'waste' ,or inefficiency as such.
My argument against Benn and cohorts is they just don't understand human behaviour that well and as such their policies have been grossly wasteful of human resources. I start from the viewpoint of quality of life. What is it ? I think it is ultimately nothing more than each persons balance as to the degree of stimulation they get from birth to death. There being no universal ideal ,but with each person having a desired balance between too much and too little. Now what creates stimulation? Experiences ,productivity, activity if you like. Basically ,that means the less you do the less stimulation you get ,the lower the quality of your life experience. Hence, I think any policies that lead to people losing the motivation and the means to get a decent balance of life experiences is wasteful and ineffective. I also think that comes about when your policies demotivate them, take away from them issues such as taking personal responsibility for one's actions, understanding that producing for yourself is always going to be more stimulating than not doing so and having what you need given to you. This is the true bill for our nanny state. Too may people robbed of a stimulating life experience ,because politicians like Benn want to make so many of your life decisions for you from birth to death. And I am not surprised he is acclaimed in Germany ,think about it and think about what we know of the German mentality to authority :) .
This isn't really about political ideology. It's about human psychology and the theft of a stimulating life brought about by good intentions and policy based upon that. Don't give me a 'good man' .Give me a man making policy who really understands the potential consequences of his actions.
None of this in my case seeks a case built on the moral highground. I couldn't care less about the majority of people and I make no secret of it so morality doesn't come into it. I just don't appreciate morons making policy.

What economical harm has been done is anyone's guess. Untold trillions of dollars have been diverted away, as black money, leaving the US as the most indebted nation in the world, You cannot consider what was going to happen, in fifty years time, because of US policy in the fifties. This was the whole point of the debate, in the beginning. People, like Benn, have won through policies that, today, have become a terrible tax burden. NHS, it seems to me, is becoming a good case in point.

US policy has, never, condoned drugs. The public would never have allowed it. The government's pitbull, the CIA, was let off the leash to squash communist rebels in the Latin countries, to the south, undercover.The CIA exported arms and received drugs, in return, which was released onto the streets.

How do you know what policies are going to lead to a loss of motivation? In any case, by your own admission, in the closing lines of your post, you could not care less about what happens to the majority of people. I am much the same, and In my case, the socialists decided me to emigrate, A lot of others did, too. But, anyone who votes for a socialist government is going to have to take on board the idea that a large section of it wants to take care of the population. That is what socialism is all about, The trouble is that, when there is a, really, good period of prosperity social services grow to proportions that cannot be sustained in a downturn.
 

Pat494

Legendary member
14,621 1,579
I think of Lord Wedgewood Benn to give him his proper title as a conscious stricken product of the 1930s and 1940s. Many aristocratic parents of that era were almost cruel to their own children. They were presented all clean and tidy for almost ceremonial occasions, like tea time by nanny, the rest of the time they were out of site and out of mind. Preparatory and Public schools were dens of bullying and torture for some, sadistic pleasure for others. So the more sensitive types became artists, poets, socialists etc.
Not fit to rule and not accepted by the working class either.
 
Last edited:

PieterSteidelmayer

Well-known member
283 54
The US and most other democracies are so in debt that there are really only two options.
!. Try and reduce debt by cutting costs.
2. Do nothing until everything falls apart and armed gangs roam at will.

In option 1. the UK is trying to cut debt by reducing costs of :-
a) armed forces costs. We are now largely relying on a partime army of
reservists.
b) pensions. The basic pension of £110 per week barely covers food, let alone other costs.
c) social welfare for the unemployed.
etc.
The Govt even has had the cheek to suggest reducing taxes for the bloated rich !!

How can we depend on democracy to save the situation ? Useless politicians are going to make the usual extravagant promises to get re-eleected, knowing they can't keep them. Britain and the USA never had it as bad as central Europe in the 1930s and therefore can't be expected to understand fascism. As much as I hate Fascism/Communism they did keep the country togethor.
Your mind is a mess.
 

chump

Senior member
2,212 274
The US and most other democracies are so in debt that there are really only two options.
!. Try and reduce debt by cutting costs.
2. Do nothing until everything falls apart and armed gangs roam at will.

In option 1. the UK is trying to cut debt by reducing costs of :-
a) armed forces costs. We are now largely relying on a partime army of
reservists.
b) pensions. The basic pension of £110 per week barely covers food, let alone other costs.
c) social welfare for the unemployed.
etc.
The Govt even has had the cheek to suggest reducing taxes for the bloated rich !!

How can we depend on democracy to save the situation ? Useless politicians are going to make the usual extravagant promises to get re-eleected, knowing they can't keep them. Britain and the USA never had it as bad as central Europe in the 1930s and therefore can't be expected to understand fascism. As much as I hate Fascism/Communism they did keep the country togethor.

How can we depend on democracy to save the situation

You cannot. Democracy was only meant to be a way for the top of the food chain to maintain stability whilst maintaining it's position. Think of it has a placebo.
Democracy will never work according to the instructions on the modern day tin for the simple reason that most people know what they want ,but don't really know what they need. They vote ,in hope ,for what they want, and the outcome for politicians is an outcome that falls short of that in the long term , because they have to deal with the reality of economic 'need'. In short ,it's an insider joke. ;)
 

chump

Senior member
2,212 274
What economical harm has been done is anyone's guess. Untold trillions of dollars have been diverted away, as black money, leaving the US as the most indebted nation in the world, You cannot consider what was going to happen, in fifty years time, because of US policy in the fifties. This was the whole point of the debate, in the beginning. People, like Benn, have won through policies that, today, have become a terrible tax burden. NHS, it seems to me, is becoming a good case in point.

US policy has, never, condoned drugs. The public would never have allowed it. The government's pitbull, the CIA, was let off the leash to squash communist rebels in the Latin countries, to the south, undercover.The CIA exported arms and received drugs, in return, which was released onto the streets.

How do you know what policies are going to lead to a loss of motivation? In any case, by your own admission, in the closing lines of your post, you could not care less about what happens to the majority of people. I am much the same, and In my case, the socialists decided me to emigrate, A lot of others did, too. But, anyone who votes for a socialist government is going to have to take on board the idea that a large section of it wants to take care of the population. That is what socialism is all about, The trouble is that, when there is a, really, good period of prosperity social services grow to proportions that cannot be sustained in a downturn.

Zero sum. Whatever leaks out one end is coming back in somewhere else. A loss of productivity due to a drug induced state of being has still netted off has an increase in income and productivity for the poppy grower. In essence ,it is redistributive rather than a fiscal drag.
LOL....you don't think the vast wealth accumulated through corruption in say Russia has not caused an uplift in capital values and income for asset ownrs in London and elsewhere?
 
Last edited:

chump

Senior member
2,212 274
What economical harm has been done is anyone's guess. Untold trillions of dollars have been diverted away, as black money, leaving the US as the most indebted nation in the world, You cannot consider what was going to happen, in fifty years time, because of US policy in the fifties. This was the whole point of the debate, in the beginning. People, like Benn, have won through policies that, today, have become a terrible tax burden. NHS, it seems to me, is becoming a good case in point.

US policy has, never, condoned drugs. The public would never have allowed it. The government's pitbull, the CIA, was let off the leash to squash communist rebels in the Latin countries, to the south, undercover.The CIA exported arms and received drugs, in return, which was released onto the streets.

How do you know what policies are going to lead to a loss of motivation? In any case, by your own admission, in the closing lines of your post, you could not care less about what happens to the majority of people. I am much the same, and In my case, the socialists decided me to emigrate, A lot of others did, too. But, anyone who votes for a socialist government is going to have to take on board the idea that a large section of it wants to take care of the population. That is what socialism is all about, The trouble is that, when there is a, really, good period of prosperity social services grow to proportions that cannot be sustained in a downturn.

How do you know what policies are going to lead to a loss of motivation?

Come on, you can do better than that.
 
 
AdBlock Detected

We get it, advertisements are annoying!

But it's thanks to our sponsors that access to Trade2Win remains free for all. By viewing our ads you help us pay our bills, so please support the site and disable your AdBlocker.

I've Disabled AdBlock