Greedy Capitalism is in the past.

Signalcalc

Veteren member
4,670 1,030
Weeell, "deep" would be a definite exaggeration and no, I was not using Capitalism as a scapegoat but merely pointing out that the degree of exploitation that was possible for me to enjoy would not have existed under another system - nor, of course, in all likelihood would the factory.

As to the local workers finding that employment in my factory was better than the alternative i.e foreign owned against locally owned - again, absolutely true. Foreign owned factories tended to pay a little more ( and I really do mean a little) but such was the degree of poverty that those few percent guaranteed a steady stream of hopefuls at the gate. To put things in perspective, at that time, local pay rates were approximately 15 to 20% percent of UK and as Salary Mass (sorry, don't know the correct English expression) is by far the biggest expense in that kind of industry it made the difference between a profit and a loss. All the raw materials were sourced abroad, as was the all the equipment and the only local input was labour.

B2B exploitation is always easier than B2W.
 

J Livermore

Active member
125 38
As to the local workers finding that employment in my factory was better than the alternative i.e foreign owned against locally owned - again, absolutely true. Foreign owned factories tended to pay a little more ( and I really do mean a little) but such was the degree of poverty that those few percent guaranteed a steady stream of hopefuls at the gate. To put things in perspective, at that time, local pay rates were approximately 15 to 20% percent of UK and as Salary Mass (sorry, don't know the correct English expression) is by far the biggest expense in that kind of industry it made the difference between a profit and a loss. All the raw materials were sourced abroad, as was the all the equipment and the only local input was labour.
cantagril,

I’m curious, what happened to the workers when you decided to leave their country? Did you sell the business to someone else or was it closed down?

Hope you don’t mind my asking.
 

cantagril

Senior member
3,286 996
cantagril,

I’m curious, what happened to the workers when you decided to leave their country? Did you sell the business to someone else or was it closed down?

Hope you don’t mind my asking.
I did indeed sell the business. This was some 20 years ago so ancient history but AFAIK, the buyer (a local) had no idea how to deal with the UK customer base and went from direct export,to contracting for exporters, to sub-contracting, to closing down. I assume that one of the first things he tried to do was get more money out of the customers and pay even less money to the workers - for that was the culture in those parts. The end result was fairly predictable: he didn't make the millions he was expecting and the workforce didn't get paid for the last six months or so.
 

new_trader

Legendary member
6,575 1,431
Weeell, "deep" would be a definite exaggeration and no, I was not using Capitalism as a scapegoat but merely pointing out that the degree of exploitation that was possible for me to enjoy would not have existed under another system - nor, of course, in all likelihood would the factory.

As to the local workers finding that employment in my factory was better than the alternative i.e foreign owned against locally owned - again, absolutely true. Foreign owned factories tended to pay a little more ( and I really do mean a little) but such was the degree of poverty that those few percent guaranteed a steady stream of hopefuls at the gate. To put things in perspective, at that time, local pay rates were approximately 15 to 20% percent of UK and as Salary Mass (sorry, don't know the correct English expression) is by far the biggest expense in that kind of industry it made the difference between a profit and a loss. All the raw materials were sourced abroad, as was the all the equipment and the only local input was labour.

Yes, you have perfectly described a situation where the anti-capitalists contradict themselves!

The solution to the problem of low wages and exploitation is…yes, you guessed it - AUTOMATION.

The free market (Capitalism) solves the problem of labour cost with automation. This is the only way consumers of a product (who outnumber workers involved in that product) get to enjoy the product at an affordable price.

However the ant-capitalists don’t like machines replacing humans working in factories, but they also don’t like humans working in factories for low wages. These very same anti-capitalists ignore how the productivity of machines raises the standard of living for everyone. They would rather see 500 people working on a farm than to have a single combine harvester producing enough food to feed many people at a very low cost.

Consider all the people employed in the manufacture and delivery of a physical letter. But I’m sure the anti-capitalists would still rather send an e-mail from the comfort of their home than writing a letter, putting it in an envelope, stamping it, then going out in the cold and rain to post it. Hypocrites much?

N.B: This reply may or may not have been ironic.
 
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Pat494

Legendary member
14,591 1,564
When AI really gets going in a few years time and unemployment is about 30% we may well get a resurgence of Luddism. Capitalism doesn't recognise the suffering of the many just the usual few that are hogging most of the wealth. The result is violent revolution as in France and Russia. Socialism at least pretends to care. The downside of Socialism is that resources are wasted so much the whole country's economy collapses. Therefore the answer would it seems to me to lie in the middle somewhere as in Western Democracies.
 

Pat494

Legendary member
14,591 1,564
The reasons the Soviet Empire collapsed was in my view the hate they had for others. They never had real Socialism BUT tried to compete in weapons and cold war hate politics. Their flagrant use of death camps called gulags were the product of vile politicians like Stalin who had absolute power etc. inside Russia.
 

tomorton

Legendary member
8,178 1,241
The reasons the Soviet Empire collapsed was in my view the hate they had for others. They never had real Socialism BUT tried to compete in weapons and cold war hate politics. Their flagrant use of death camps called gulags were the product of vile politicians like Stalin who had absolute power etc. inside Russia.

The usual leftist apologism - it wasn't true socialism, and it was just a few greedy politicians pretending to be socialists, and if they'd had a real socialist at the top everything would have been alright. And next time it will be different and it will be better. And Stalin's dead so it could never happen again. And anyway it couldn't happen here. And on and on........
 

Pat494

Legendary member
14,591 1,564
The question is - Can a modern country have true Socialism without wrecking the country's economy. If Corbyn gets in we may have fewer rotten landlords etc. but at what cost ?
However when machines take over, true capitalism will no doubt dispose of surplus humans.
 

cantagril

Senior member
3,286 996
Yes, you have perfectly described a situation where the anti-capitalists contradict themselves!

The solution to the problem of low wages and exploitation is…yes, you guessed it - AUTOMATION.

The free market (Capitalism) solves the problem of labour cost with automation. This is the only way consumers of a product (who outnumber workers involved in that product) get to enjoy the product at an affordable price.

However the ant-capitalists don’t like machines replacing humans working in factories, but they also don’t like humans working in factories for low wages. These very same anti-capitalists ignore how the productivity of machines raises the standard of living for everyone. They would rather see 500 people working on a farm than to have a single combine harvester producing enough food to feed many people at a very low cost.

Consider all the people employed in the manufacture and delivery of a physical letter. But I’m sure the anti-capitalists would still rather send an e-mail from the comfort of their home than writing a letter, putting it in an envelope, stamping it, then going out in the cold and rain to post it. Hypocrites much?

N.B: This reply may or may not have been ironic.

I think that I detect a hint of sarcasm in your irony :)

In the interests of disclosure, before I exploited the poor of North Africa I tried doing similar things in the UK. Unfortunately, the UK poor wanted to get paid more and work less, so my solution was ( fairly naturally) to optimise production systems and eliminate the need for wretched employees wherever possible. Though I say it myself, I was quite good at that and therefore it was quite ironic that a few years later I found myself in an industry where the norm was the exact opposite....btw, am not being sarcastic.

Whilst I completely follow your logic, ultimately (or at least at some time in the not too distant future) there will be a need to achieve a more or less satisfactory balance between a possible Capitalistic world where the few are vastly privileged and the many are grindingly poor without hope of improving their condition (by earning a living, for example) and a Socialist society where nobody has to work but still gets paid because most things are done by machines and the populace controlled to suit .....as somebody we all know and love said just a few posts ago.

Society is already facing at least three really difficult problems - the first is simply over-population, with the second and third respectively being the dwindling of resources and the decreasing opportunities for employment/income. Actually, it's not that the problems are difficult but I'm certain that the solutions will be...and because I've forgotten to needle Sig this morning, we mustn't leave out Climate Change.
 
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Signalcalc

Veteren member
4,670 1,030
I think that I detect a hint of sarcasm in your irony :)

In the interests of disclosure, before I exploited the poor of North Africa I tried doing similar things in the UK. Unfortunately, the UK poor wanted to get paid more and work less, so my solution was ( fairly naturally) to optimise production systems and eliminate the need for wretched employees wherever possible. Though I say it myself, I was quite good at that and therefore it was quite ironic that a few years later I found myself in an industry where the norm was the exact opposite....btw, am not being sarcastic.

Whilst I completely follow your logic, ultimately (or at least at some time in the not too distant future) there will be a need to achieve a more or less satisfactory balance between a possible Capitalistic world where the few are vastly privileged and the many are grindingly poor without hope of improving their condition (by earning a living, for example) and a Socialist society where nobody has to work but still gets paid because most things are done by machines and the populace controlled to suit .....as somebody we all know and love said just a few posts ago.

Society is already facing at least three really difficult problems - the first is simply over-population, with the second and third respectively being the dwindling of resources and the decreasing opportunities for employment/income. Actually, it's not that the problems are difficult but I'm certain that the solutions will be...and because I've forgotten to needle Sig this morning, we mustn't leave out Climate Change.

Sorry quite busy earning a crust today :ROFLMAO:

Ahh the other elephant in the room (besides Islam), that old chestnut of climate change. Now that Carney et al will be sending out dictats (already have sent the dictats as far as I am aware), to companies to comply or die, then we are already well down the path of gathering corporate tax to pay for the universal income that will surely need to be redeployed to the mass unemployed of the future (controlled population of course, you either have your face scanned to use the internet or don't receive the credits).

This is why climate change is a hoax, we either all get onboard with the elites or we all die from lack of employment and no benefits to live on, which is it to be?

The future, based on climate change, looks bleak, but not because the climate is changing, the kiddies of today don't see this of course because they have been indoctrinated from birth into this way of thinking and as the pre-millenials die off in the next 50-80 years, the new world order will be well and truly established, providing we haven't descended into chaos.

It's going to have to be carefully balanced by the elites in order to avoid that chaos which has already been popping up in various places already.

And just to link the climate change agenda with Brexit and why there will only ever be BRINO, there is no way the EU will be able to enforce the climate change agenda on the populace without EU defence union, who else is going to supress the populace when it kicks off 'big style', the EU interior police state will require military backup in all the member states to cope with that one, EU defence union (a misnomer) is to protect the elites from the populace, not 'just' from external threats (I suspect Trump has this one worked out already).

Great thread for linking these topics I must say, from the lowly MENA poorest workers to the richest elitest banksters, nice one (y)

The topics the MSM won't touch eh?! (and most politicians).
 

cantagril

Senior member
3,286 996
Please explain BRINO and MENA.
I worry about you Pat. As everyone knows (or should) BRINO is the UK's current rhino in the room and merely means Brexit in Name Only and imho won't be too far from reality when the consequences of the shambles have been properly understood.

And as for MENA: just think "MENiAl" as in all those underpaid skivvies that do our dirty work.....yes, it is true that now a lot are from Eastern Europe but at one point the Middle East and North Africa were big providers of cheap (and frequently, illegal) labour.
 
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Pat494

Legendary member
14,591 1,564
I worry about you Pat. As everyone knows (or should) BRINO is the UK's current rhino in the room and merely means Brexit in Name Only and imho won't be too far from reality when the consequences of the shambles have been properly understood.

And as for MENA: just think "MENiAl" as in all those underpaid skivvies that do our dirty work.....yes, it is true that now a lot are from Eastern Europe but at one point the Middle East and North Africa were big providers of cheap (and frequently, illegal) labour.
I see thanks
 
 
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