From professional poker player to professional trader?

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squizzel

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First post here, total newbie!

Hi, my names Andy im 23 and from the UK. Since i was 19 i have been a professional poker player. Im not a typical gambler, about 5 years ago when i was 18 i saw someone playing online poker, i was immidiately drawn to it because i saw that it was a skill game. I was totally attracted to using strategy and my wits to beat people and make money. I am very analytical, logical and emotionally detached. I also dont give a **** about losing large sums of money. Which is a plus, because the swings are pretty big and emotionally draining at first.

Very long story short, i have done decently ok for myself. Earning mid 5 figures to low 6figures every year. However, there is definitely a downward trend, in terms of there being less "fish" or poor poker players around, and more professionals. Basically, my margins are being squeezed. So i am essentially looking for new avenues to potentially make more money.

Ive potentially isolated trading and one of these avenues i could pursue, as some of the skills are potentially transferable. Essentially, trading is the same. Using the information you can get your hands on and betting on the outcome.

That being said, where would you guys suggest i start? Do you think this is even worthwhile? I am not looking for a get rich quick scheme, im just looking for potential. Im definitely willing to work hard, learn and put the effort in.

I have around £75k set aside as my starting capital. I am slightly risk adverse, so im not looking to over expose myself, or run before i can walk.

Looking forward to your comments :)
 
Definately go for it.

You are thinking along the right lines, and with 75K tucked away to dip your toes into the business of trading, and aged 23... you have time and capital on your side.

You will need to take things sllllooooooow, do not rush into jumping onto some course that promises to turn you in to a super trader overnight... trust me, just trust me.. they do not exist.

Trading is the hardest way to make easy money :cool:

First you need to work out which financial market place you will trade in? Equities? Bonds? FX? Indicies? etc etc

This is massive, as you need to find a market that you will fall in love with, as it's like a good women... treat it well and you will get plenty of rewards... lead it on and not really love it, and you will have a life of misery.

So before all else, forget the trading strategies etc... what interests you?
 
squizzel said:
First post here, total newbie!

Hi, my names Andy im 23 and from the UK. Since i was 19 i have been a professional poker player. Im not a typical gambler, about 5 years ago when i was 18 i saw someone playing online poker, i was immidiately drawn to it because i saw that it was a skill game. I was totally attracted to using strategy and my wits to beat people and make money. I am very analytical, logical and emotionally detached. I also dont give a **** about losing large sums of money. Which is a plus, because the swings are pretty big and emotionally draining at first.

Very long story short, i have done decently ok for myself. Earning mid 5 figures to low 6figures every year. However, there is definitely a downward trend, in terms of there being less "fish" or poor poker players around, and more professionals. Basically, my margins are being squeezed. So i am essentially looking for new avenues to potentially make more money.

Ive potentially isolated trading and one of these avenues i could pursue, as some of the skills are potentially transferable. Essentially, trading is the same. Using the information you can get your hands on and betting on the outcome.

That being said, where would you guys suggest i start? Do you think this is even worthwhile? I am not looking for a get rich quick scheme, im just looking for potential. Im definitely willing to work hard, learn and put the effort in.

I have around £75k set aside as my starting capital. I am slightly risk adverse, so im not looking to over expose myself, or run before i can walk.

Looking forward to your comments :)
Click to expand...

squizzel!!
 
if your trading for the money you are doomed to failure... trading is not like poker the only way there are related is the risk management aspect.. im afraid you need to educate yourself first this is a noob question.. read about the psychology of trading... keep playing poker if it works for you.
 
Put £100 into an Alpari account. Trade 0.01 lots. If you are as good as you say at poker (ie you know about psychology and money management), willing to learn and are not looking to make a quick buck, £100 will last you months.
 
russianking said:
if your trading for the money you are doomed to failure... trading is not like poker the only way there are related is the risk management aspect.. im afraid you need to educate yourself first this is a noob question.. read about the psychology of trading... keep playing poker if it works for you.
Click to expand...

This is not true, they share many similarities. I was in a similar position to you squizzel and made the transition a while back. Took me a couple of years of losing before I got the hang of things. Trading is probably the easier game to beat, and it is certainly much easier mentally because the variance is not as high as in poker at the top levels.

Unfortunately its going to take longer to learn than poker because you cant do the same insane volume and learn at the exponential rate of a multitabling online player.

Don't make the mistake I did however, start very very small... and then halve your size :cheesy:
 
russianking said:
if your trading for the money you are doomed to failure... trading is not like poker the only way there are related is the risk management aspect.. im afraid you need to educate yourself first this is a noob question.. read about the psychology of trading... keep playing poker if it works for you.
Click to expand...

Don't agree with that, money is a good motivator.. and there is nothing stopping you getting the psychology correct to trade well and keep the money motivation instilled.

I think the trick is to not put too much energy and mental efforts into single wins or single losses.

Plan how to trade... then trade the plan, not the market.

If you stick to the plan, and do not fail by falling to the trap of fighting the beast (market).. your ultimate goal will be realised.

Great theory, now put it into action and see how ridiculously difficult it is to see through.
 
TBH. I dont think anything can be more psychologically stressful that high variance online games. From what i have heard succesful traders can get something like 70% winning trades, with there winning trades winning more than your losing trades lose.

In poker im working on like a 5% margin, in a month i will average about 16-17 winning days and the rest losing days. Before i was working on alot larger margin, i could have easily won 25 days a month. Now however, there is less competitive advantage, even for smart people, due to the huge ammount of training resources out there.

I think the things that will help me from poker, is that i am very analytical and not results orientanted. I look at the why, instead of, did this work, did that work etc. Im sure that in trading you can get lucky and put a bunch of trades in for the wrong reasons and win, hence deluding yourself that your a good trader when you just got lucky a few times.

When it comes to money management, for a professional gambler im pretty risk adverse. I ususally play $200 poker games online, and i always have upwards of $20k in my account. And as a % of my networth its pretty small, so there is 0% chance i could go bust. You could infact argue that i have not maximised my returns by not risking enough. However, i value peace of mind and that has a dollar value on it. I call it happiness EV. :D

Im not sure where im going to start, ive read 2 books on spread betting now. And im guessing im gonna start with that. Obviously i have no confidence in my skill level so im gonna educate myself a bunch more and start by trading very very low.

Money is the main factor for me in doing this. However, i dont want to gamble on my success or failure :) So ill obviously be starting small and try to figure out a winning strategy over a large sample before i start trying to scale it.
 
squizzel said:
TBH. I dont think anything can be more psychologically stressful that high variance online games. From what i have heard succesful traders can get something like 70% winning trades, with there winning trades winning more than your losing trades lose.

In poker im working on like a 5% margin, in a month i will average about 16-17 winning days and the rest losing days. Before i was working on alot larger margin, i could have easily won 25 days a month. Now however, there is less competitive advantage, even for smart people, due to the huge ammount of training resources out there.

I think the things that will help me from poker, is that i am very analytical and not results orientanted. I look at the why, instead of, did this work, did that work etc. Im sure that in trading you can get lucky and put a bunch of trades in for the wrong reasons and win, hence deluding yourself that your a good trader when you just got lucky a few times.

When it comes to money management, for a professional gambler im pretty risk adverse. I ususally play $200 poker games online, and i always have upwards of $20k in my account. And as a % of my networth its pretty small, so there is 0% chance i could go bust. You could infact argue that i have not maximised my returns by not risking enough. However, i value peace of mind and that has a dollar value on it. I call it happiness EV. :D

Im not sure where im going to start, ive read 2 books on spread betting now. And im guessing im gonna start with that. Obviously i have no confidence in my skill level so im gonna educate myself a bunch more and start by trading very very low.

Money is the main factor for me in doing this. However, i dont want to gamble on my success or failure :) So ill obviously be starting small and try to figure out a winning strategy over a large sample before i start trying to scale it.
Click to expand...

Finding a winning strategy is a piece of urine.... there are thousands of them out there.

Pairing that strategy with the correct money management and then discipline to see it through is where everybody fails.

Do not go OTT on finding some kind of holy grail system... the holy grail is not the system in trading.
 
Are there any video training sites for different forms of trading?

In poker there are video training sites where you can see pros play, and they go over there thought processes, IE why they did what they did in each situation. Something like this would probably be helpful for me. Ive read a couple of books so far but it just seems like common sense type of stuff.

Ive been travelling for the past month so havent really pursued this any further yet, but i have alot of free time now, so im gonna get stuck in.
 
Also, FWIW, i charge $90 an hour for poker lessons. If someone of a similar skill level in trading would like to get better at poker i could definitely do an exchange.
 
What books did you read? As for videos there's so many crap people out there making trading videos it's very hard to find something good. What's their incentive? Same as with poker videos really, why would a nosebleed player decide to give up any edge?

I personally think you're better off sticking with poker as the money's easier and less variables to work around. Only thing is scaleability is difficult and it's unlikely you'll make large 6 figure sums in poker unless you're near the best and the equivalent trader would make more but it just depends on your future goals. I think you'd be best off if you invested it in equities for the longer term and played poker rather than trying to compete in day trading something like FX.
 
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squizzel said:
In poker there are video training sites where you can see pros play, and they go over there thought processes, IE why they did what they did in each situation. Something like this would probably be helpful for me. Ive read a couple of books so far but it just seems like common sense type of stuff.
Click to expand...

Out of interest, are these free and accessible vids...if so could you point us in the right direction?

Ta
 
counter_violent said:
Out of interest, are these free and accessible vids...if so could you point us in the right direction?

Ta
Click to expand...

They arent free, but a bunch of them have free trials. Most subs are like $30 a month. My favourite sites probably bluefirepoker.com or leggopoker.com both are excellent.

In terms of what the previous poster said "Why would a nosebleeder make training videos?". Money obviously. Some of these sites have 10 thousand subscribers at $30 a month. Its alot of variance free money for a nosebleeder to start a site like this. Also, the best players seem to gloss over the most complex stuff, but just seeing how they make decisions and analysing them makes it really valuable. I often listen to videos on mute, and just analyse there play, and ask what i would do differently, if they do something different i ask why and try to figure it out.

In regards to going back to poker, i dont really want to, i just dont find it as interesting and the games have changed in such that its difficult to get an edge, and its constantly getting smaller as less fish are playing and regulars are fighting for the same money. Its definitely not the glory days of 2006 where there was more than 1 fish at the table.
 
So if there's so much variance free money to be made in training videos why aren't top players such as Phil Ivey, Patrik Antonius, Tom Dwan, Viktor Blom and many others making training videos? Phil Galfond arguably one of the only decent players making training videos although he's known for being a huge bum-hunter. As for the other guys making training videos they cheat and use underhand tactics and inevitably have recently lost their money that they made when the games were easy. eg. Brian Townsend, Cole South, Krantz etc. Training sites are all just a con really.

Perhaps you should learn PLO or play HU. If you really want to try trading then go for it, but I still think you're better off trading on a longer term with your money rather than getting chopped around with the other day traders.
 
squizzel said:
Also, FWIW, i charge $90 an hour for poker lessons. If someone of a similar skill level in trading would like to get better at poker i could definitely do an exchange.
Click to expand...

You can watch me trade for a day once I move to trading at home rather than being in an office if you then tutor me in poker for the evening
 
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