Final Events of Bible Prophecy

[Trader333]

Hi Grant,

My view that there is intelligence behind how things have evolved is based on evidence of how other scientific phenomena are ordered and work. I will take several points in order which are widely available on the internet:

1) Order. Without intelligence behind order means that the chaotic first elements of existence somehow ordered themselves into complex information systems. This is not even possible with all our top “intelligent” scientists today so how can it happen by accident ?

2) Design. Without intelligence behind evolutionary design means that random chance engineered apparent design. Look at today’s top designers of engineering products maybe a Ferrari F1 Engine. If I said that the Ferrari engine happened by accident and without intelligence behind then I would be laughed at like an idiot. Yet look at the complexity in the engineering of the human hand which is literally infinitely more complex and this happened by accident. What about the human eye ? Again even our top most intelligent scientists cannot come close to the engineering capability of something that again happened by accident.

3) Encoded Instructions. Without intelligence behind such things as DNA means that complex coding can come into existence without any kind of programming, testing or debugging process. Speak to any computer programmer and ask if they think that their programs could work by random typing of code straight out of the box with no testing.


4) Complexity. Without intelligence being involved in the evolutionary process means that biological systems took huge, unseen (and unevidenced) leaps from simple to complex without any guided process or forward looking instructions. Again something that our top scientists with high levels of intelligence still cannot do but apparently it can all happen by random accident.

5) The Mind / Soul / Spirit: If there is no intelligence behind our evolutionary development means that only matter exists and the human mind, the human soul and the human spirit only appear to have a separate conscious ability and existence. If this is not the case then how and where have they come from ? Also without some form of guiding intelligence means that unguided materialistic processes managed to evolve higher human consciousness.


Ultimately there are only 2 possibilities in this argument from a scientific point of view. Either everything we experience around us is responsible for itself or there has been some form of intelligence at certain points that has had influence on the way things have developed and evolved.


Finally, look around at the proliferation of living things which are everywhere on our planet which all happened by accident and without intelligence being involved. Yet our top scientists with all their intelligence still cannot recreate even the simplest amoebic life form. To me the evidence is overwhelming but I am not of the view that always gets put forward which is that everything was created or that nothing was created and everything evolved from nothing.



Paul

 

[rglenn]

Yes trendie still going strong

95% are wrong when it comes to trading. What if you 90% to 95% are wrong on Final Events of Bible Prophecy post #1?

It would seem most who post on this thread are agnostic.

That is an extremely accurate point that you have made laptop1.

It really amazes me when people belittle and put down people or things they do not understand.

We are all relatively new on this Earth and what you will find is that someone who maybe 20yrs old goes around proclaiming to be the one with all the knowledge telling people that this and that is rubbish etc etc, not forgetting that only a few years previously they were in nappies and someone else was taking care of them.

The Bible indeed stated through Moses that another one will come in their own name and they would receive him rather than Jesus who came in his Father's name proclaiming the good news of the Kingdom of God.

It is very sad but true that only a few will receive him and accept his free gift of life as most will think this is too tacky or corny or if this was true there would be something big to be done to show oneself worthy.

Jesus confirmed what you said above that there is a broad way and a narrow way and most of the world will be on the broad way. People cannot be forced they need to choose.

 

[Atilla]

I'd be interested to know what the view of other religions are on the end of the world or day of judgement to compare with that of the bible...

See if there are any common threads between them.

 

[rglenn]

To me the evidence is overwhelming but I am not of the view that always gets put forward which is that everything was created or that nothing was created and everything evolved from nothing.


Hi Paul

Nice to see that you are still around on this forum.

You have made some very strong points above which if a few people can even began to discover or punder over it would point them in the right direction.

As the apostle Paul said to one of the leaders that he was brought before - I say to you Paul you are not far from the Kindgom of God.

I know by speaking to you in the past that you have had many bad experiences with christianity but now is the time to step out come of the fence.

As Elijah said once - how long will ye halt between two opinions - If God is God serve him or if Satan be God serve him.

You already know in your heart which side you are on -you have all the evidence go for it.

 

[BSD]

Big difference between being an agnostic, or a non-believer on the one hand, or a believer who believes in God or the Universe, but wants to have nothing to do with the spin doctored, manipulated, hypocrisy ridden DoubleSpeak and Fearmongering that humans aka the Church has made out of the Whole.

Way I see it is that we are both individuals and also simultaneously part of God or the Universe or whatever your name for the Whole is, sort of like the part reflecting the whole, or the Microcosm, ie us, corresponding to the Macrocosm, ie God or the Universe.

An old Chinese saying sums it up pretty well:

If you want to change the country you must change the Province...

If you want to change the Province you must change the City...

If you want rto change the City you must change the Family

If you want to change the Family you must change Yourself...

If You change Yourself, you leave nothing undone.

All "hell" is outside of the fearmongering context of the Church is the need to keep coming back here until you're done or you've finally learned what it's all about, while Heaven can be right here on earth, all one needs to do is realize that we have been equipped with all we need.

If you're of a biblical inclination, it's all there, just like in many many other places as well:

"Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. 22If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

That's what we're here for, to learn that all we need to do to overcome lifes hurdles and our fears, ie the biggest problems we face as living creatures - think it was Henry Ford who cleverly said that all we have to fear is fear itself - is to accept that all we do will always come back to us, hence the Golden Rule, and that absolutely nothing is impossible for us if we have faith and trust in outcomes, in God or the Universe handling our "orders" in the best possible way.

 

[BSD]

PS, just to clarify: Absolutely nothing wrong with believing whatever you want to believe, or not believing anything, or whatever...

Not our job here to tell others what to do or how to do it.

I think when I'm getting ready to leave here in what I hope will still be many decades, I'd like to be able to say about my life that on the whole I did what I wanted to do without harming others, or at least only as little as possible, and that on the whole I treated others the way I would have wanted others to treat me.

Ahem. Sermon over.

Have a great weekend all

 

[grantx]

Paul,

I think I’ll need a bit of time here to prepare a reply.

Rglen,

To use the Bible or the teachings of Christ as a framework for one’s conduct is fine but you seem to accept the Bible as gospel, so to speak. Your quotes are presented as the first and final word, the ultimate authority (God) which reduces the bible to nothing more than dogmatism. Is there room for debate? I can’t reconcile this with spirit of Christianity; it is at odds with theological debate over the centuries – Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas (wonder why they all begin with “A”?). This straightjacket is a deterrent to this – and most – religions, breeding cynicism and contempt (sometimes hate).

Grant.

 

[Trader333]

RGlen,

I know by speaking to you in the past that you have had many bad experiences with christianity but now is the time to step out come of the fence.

I don't remember this and I am unsure what I may have said that has given that impression ?

Grant

I think I’ll need a bit of time here to prepare a reply

Don't worry this was not meant as some tit for tat argument, I was just responding to your request and I am fully aware of the case against my views. However, I am almost certain that there will never be enough counter evidence to change my view on this.


Paul

 

[alexander]

Hi Grant,

My view that there is intelligence behind how things have evolved is based on evidence of how other scientific phenomena are ordered and work. I will take several points in order which are widely available on the internet:

1) Order. Without intelligence behind order means that the chaotic first elements of existence somehow ordered themselves into complex information systems. This is not even possible with all our top “intelligent” scientists today so how can it happen by accident ?

2) Design. Without intelligence behind evolutionary design means that random chance engineered apparent design. Look at today’s top designers of engineering products maybe a Ferrari F1 Engine. If I said that the Ferrari engine happened by accident and without intelligence behind then I would be laughed at like an idiot. Yet look at the complexity in the engineering of the human hand which is literally infinitely more complex and this happened by accident. What about the human eye ? Again even our top most intelligent scientists cannot come close to the engineering capability of something that again happened by accident.

3) Encoded Instructions. Without intelligence behind such things as DNA means that complex coding can come into existence without any kind of programming, testing or debugging process. Speak to any computer programmer and ask if they think that their programs could work by random typing of code straight out of the box with no testing.


4) Complexity. Without intelligence being involved in the evolutionary process means that biological systems took huge, unseen (and unevidenced) leaps from simple to complex without any guided process or forward looking instructions. Again something that our top scientists with high levels of intelligence still cannot do but apparently it can all happen by random accident.

5) The Mind / Soul / Spirit: If there is no intelligence behind our evolutionary development means that only matter exists and the human mind, the human soul and the human spirit only appear to have a separate conscious ability and existence. If this is not the case then how and where have they come from ? Also without some form of guiding intelligence means that unguided materialistic processes managed to evolve higher human consciousness.


Ultimately there are only 2 possibilities in this argument from a scientific point of view. Either everything we experience around us is responsible for itself or there has been some form of intelligence at certain points that has had influence on the way things have developed and evolved.


Finally, look around at the proliferation of living things which are everywhere on our planet which all happened by accident and without intelligence being involved. Yet our top scientists with all their intelligence still cannot recreate even the simplest amoebic life form. To me the evidence is overwhelming but I am not of the view that always gets put forward which is that everything was created or that nothing was created and everything evolved from nothing.



Paul

A remarkable post.

Alex

 

[grantx]

Paul,

It isn’t about point-scoring or tit-for-tat; it’s open debate (one of the few things which keeps my mind from stagnating).

Grant.

 

[rglenn]

Grant

There is always room for debate for those with an open mind who wants to know the truth.

I make no apology for taking the Bible as you say as the ultimate authority as this is the main guide for those who believe and accept the truth for what it is.

The Bible confirms itself- a quote from moses says how can you tell a true prophet?
if what the prophet says don't come to pass then you know that he is a false prophet.

The Bible as many prophecies in it which many people think would never happen and many have already happen. How many prophets or books today that has done that.

Daniel speaks about the rising and falling of nations hundreds of years before they even came on the scene.

Zecariah speaks about the effects of a nuclear fallout before the atom bomb was even made.

and goes on and on.

Have you heard the story about the man driving towards a bridge in the night and there was a another driver coming the other way shouting to him that the bridge was down- but instead of taking any notice he continued saying to himself I only crossed it not long ago only to drive off to his death.

This is just a mere story but I think you get the gist.

I am only trying to help not to force anyone to do anything - as if that was possible.

 

[laptop1]

Hi Grant,

My view that there is intelligence behind how things have evolved is based on evidence of how other scientific phenomena are ordered and work. I will take several points in order which are widely available on the internet:

1) Order. Without intelligence behind order means that the chaotic first elements of existence somehow ordered themselves into complex information systems. This is not even possible with all our top “intelligent” scientists today so how can it happen by accident ?

2) Design. Without intelligence behind evolutionary design means that random chance engineered apparent design. Look at today’s top designers of engineering products maybe a Ferrari F1 Engine. If I said that the Ferrari engine happened by accident and without intelligence behind then I would be laughed at like an idiot. Yet look at the complexity in the engineering of the human hand which is literally infinitely more complex and this happened by accident. What about the human eye ? Again even our top most intelligent scientists cannot come close to the engineering capability of something that again happened by accident.

3) Encoded Instructions. Without intelligence behind such things as DNA means that complex coding can come into existence without any kind of programming, testing or debugging process. Speak to any computer programmer and ask if they think that their programs could work by random typing of code straight out of the box with no testing.


4) Complexity. Without intelligence being involved in the evolutionary process means that biological systems took huge, unseen (and unevidenced) leaps from simple to complex without any guided process or forward looking instructions. Again something that our top scientists with high levels of intelligence still cannot do but apparently it can all happen by random accident.

5) The Mind / Soul / Spirit: If there is no intelligence behind our evolutionary development means that only matter exists and the human mind, the human soul and the human spirit only appear to have a separate conscious ability and existence. If this is not the case then how and where have they come from ? Also without some form of guiding intelligence means that unguided materialistic processes managed to evolve higher human consciousness.


Ultimately there are only 2 possibilities in this argument from a scientific point of view. Either everything we experience around us is responsible for itself or there has been some form of intelligence at certain points that has had influence on the way things have developed and evolved.


Finally, look around at the proliferation of living things which are everywhere on our planet which all happened by accident and without intelligence being involved. Yet our top scientists with all their intelligence still cannot recreate even the simplest amoebic life form. To me the evidence is overwhelming but I am not of the view that always gets put forward which is that everything was created or that nothing was created and everything evolved from nothing.



Paul

Good Post. something to ponder over.

 

[laptop1]

Grant
I am only trying to help not to force anyone to do anything - as if that was possible.

The same with me rgenn. I'm not forcing anyone do anything.I'm just a simple guy looking for answers.
...........................................................................................

Everything we see is made up of tiny little parts called atoms. The atoms are made of even smaller parts. These are called protons, electrons and neutrons. Lets us keep this simple. I like simple. Ok, lets say as some seem to think, we're here by chance through Evolution. Now let me put this forward to you. What are the chances that a tornado might blow through a junkyard containing all the parts of a BMW Car, accidentally assemble them into a car, and leave it ready to drive-off? The possibilities are so small as to be negligible even if a tornado were to blow through enough junkyards to fill the whole universe!"

Something to think about.

Basically I feel we are all to ignorant to know the mystery of the world. There must be some form of higher being than us who made us...

 

[black bear]

The same with me rgenn. I'm not forcing anyone do anything.I'm just a simple guy looking for answers.
...........................................................................................

Everything we see is made up of tiny little parts called atoms. The atoms are made of even smaller parts. These are called protons, electrons and neutrons. Lets us keep this simple. I like simple. Ok, lets say as some seem to think, we're here by chance through Evolution. Now let me put this forward to you. What are the chances that a tornado might blow through a junkyard containing all the parts of a BMW Car, accidentally assemble them into a car, and leave it ready to drive-off? The possibilities are so small as to be negligible even if a tornado were to blow through enough junkyards to fill the whole universe!"

Something to think about.

Basically I feel we are all to ignorant to know the mystery of the world. There must be some form of higher being than us who made us...

Hi laptop

I for one am not going to think to hard

Super post

Happy Christmas & New Year

Andy

 

[dcraig1]

I always find it rather amusing when religion claims to have some sort of monoply of appreciation for the mysteries of the universe.

In reality it science that pushes at the boundaries of understanding, driven forward by great scientists enthralled by the universe and it's unknowns.

In two hundred years time, religion will no doubt still be banging on about intelligent design and achieved very little. On the other hand, science will have enriched human life in a myriad ways (assuming of course that greed and stupidity haven't destroyed the planet in the interim).

The same with me rgenn. I'm not forcing anyone do anything.I'm just a simple guy looking for answers.
...........................................................................................

Everything we see is made up of tiny little parts called atoms. The atoms are made of even smaller parts. These are called protons, electrons and neutrons. Lets us keep this simple. I like simple. Ok, lets say as some seem to think, we're here by chance through Evolution. Now let me put this forward to you. What are the chances that a tornado might blow through a junkyard containing all the parts of a BMW Car, accidentally assemble them into a car, and leave it ready to drive-off? The possibilities are so small as to be negligible even if a tornado were to blow through enough junkyards to fill the whole universe!"

Something to think about.

Basically I feel we are all to ignorant to know the mystery of the world. There must be some form of higher being than us who made us...

 

[fibonelli]

I always find it rather amusing when religion claims to have some sort of monoply of appreciation for the mysteries of the universe.

In reality it science that pushes at the boundaries of understanding, driven forward by great scientists enthralled by the universe and it's unknowns.

In two hundred years time, religion will no doubt still be banging on about intelligent design and achieved very little. On the other hand, science will have enriched human life in a myriad ways (assuming of course that greed and stupidity haven't destroyed the planet in the interim).

Where were the scientists when the universe was created?

 

[dcraig1]

Where were the scientists when the universe was created?

Your point is ..... ?

Modern cosmology is pretty much unanimous in support of the big bang theory, which is not to say it can't be wrong, or merely an aspect of some more far reaching understanding yet to be developed. However, it seems it is the best we have for the moment.

According to big bang, the universe just "popped into existence". There was no "before". Time and space did not exist before the singularity. No time and no space = no creator. Creation requires time. You cannot logically be a creationist and accept big bang.

 

[laptop1]

Your point is ..... ?

Modern cosmology is pretty much unanimous in support of the big bang theory, which is not to say it can't be wrong, or merely an aspect of some more far reaching understanding yet to be developed. However, it seems it is the best we have for the moment.

According to big bang, the universe just "popped into existence". There was no "before". Time and space did not exist before the singularity. No time and no space = no creator. Creation requires time. You cannot logically be a creationist and accept big bang.

The big bang theory, did you know if there was a Big Bang,it would have been silent!

 

[Atilla]

Your point is ..... ?

Modern cosmology is pretty much unanimous in support of the big bang theory, which is not to say it can't be wrong, or merely an aspect of some more far reaching understanding yet to be developed. However, it seems it is the best we have for the moment.

According to big bang, the universe just "popped into existence". There was no "before". Time and space did not exist before the singularity. No time and no space = no creator. Creation requires time. You cannot logically be a creationist and accept big bang.

All this is getting awfully heavy and far too in depth for my simple mind.

I'm not sure we are ready for big bang theory or anything else right now with humanity where it is today.

If we could invent a time machine and go back in time to stoneage, who would like to explain to a cave man the theory of space travel and a trip to the moon.

How much of it can he comprehend?

Assuming in the total spectrum of time from it's beginning to it's end at what point are we at?

Perhaps 10,000 years from now man can look back and wonder how primitive we must have been as we wonder about cave mans existence today?

Men from the future explaining to us the existence of the supreme being (who we refer to as God) and order the of life makes me feel like caveman today...

Grunt grunt night everyone... :cheesy:

 

[grantx]

Laptop,

Re the BMW. We can observe both designer and maker.

Grant.