Drugs - the solution

VielGeld

Experienced member
I'm ok with legalizing weaker drugs such as Marijuana for recreational use. That one's harmless.

I'm less ok with legalizing more potent and harmful drugs such as heroin. I recall seeing a toxicity chart that ranked drugs and heroin was right at the top. Given you regulate these, how do you determine an appropriate dose for your customers? What if they get hooked and ask for more and more every time? It can literally kill them and it's not a slow death like smoking.

Gotcha -- here it is:



In short -- current legal recreational drugs have long-term health issues. Many hard drugs have short-term, visible and immediate health impacts. How do you regulate that?
 

Atilla

Legendary member
I'm ok with legalizing weaker drugs such as Marijuana for recreational use. That one's harmless.

I'm less ok with legalizing more potent and harmful drugs such as heroin. I recall seeing a toxicity chart that ranked drugs and heroin was right at the top. Given you regulate these, how do you determine an appropriate dose for your customers? What if they get hooked and ask for more and more every time? It can literally kill them and it's not a slow death like smoking.

Gotcha -- here it is:



In short -- current legal recreational drugs have long-term health issues. Many hard drugs have short-term, visible and immediate health impacts. How do you regulate that?


Would you take Heroin?
 

VielGeld

Experienced member
Would you take Heroin?

Never! :LOL:

I've tried my share of weaker stuff. It never goes well. I seem to have an adverse reaction to these things. Even alcohol has left me feeling not too well lately even after just 2 beers.

But that's just my case.
 

Atilla

Legendary member
Never! :LOL:

I've tried my share of weaker stuff. It never goes well. I seem to have an adverse reaction to these things. Even alcohol has left me feeling not too well lately even after just 2 beers.

But that's just my case.


The whole point is if heroin becomes a legal prescribed drug then the novelty wears off and it becomes associated with doctors and sickness. Hence, it loses appeal to the bored young as some daring drug to be thrilled by.

Yes some will still take it as they do now but without the secondary consequences of crime, theft, exorbitant prices and all the other horrible stuff that goes with heroine scene.


Even if it was legal and regulated where you had all the facts and info you wouldn't take it! That's because you associate it with sickness and being ill. Which is correct.

I wouldn't either! :smart:



So why do you assume others will abuse the system by taking it?
 

Revorocks

Junior member
The whole point is if heroin becomes a legal prescribed drug then the novelty wears off and it becomes associated with doctors and sickness. Hence, it loses appeal to the bored young as some daring drug to be thrilled by.

Yes some will still take it as they do now but without the secondary consequences of crime, theft, exorbitant prices and all the other horrible stuff that goes with heroine scene.


Even if it was legal and regulated where you had all the facts and info you wouldn't take it! That's because you associate it with sickness and being ill. Which is correct.

I wouldn't either! :smart:



So why do you assume others will abuse the system by taking it?

Exactly.
Its why in most cases when a drug is legalised usage actually goes down.
It's human nature to always want what you can't have.

If H is suddenly legal, it doesn't change anything for me.
I'm not going to go and shoot up either way...
 

hhiusa

Senior member
Agree. I'm all for legalisation, just regulate them like anything else.
Let people decide for themselves what they want to put in their bodies.

Alcohol was illegal once... Not everyone that uses drugs is an addict and can't hold down a job, the same way not everyone who drinks is an alcoholic who can't hold down a job.

Problem is purely political and people being afraid of change.
If drug users can get hold of and take drugs as and when they please, why would they, just because its suddenly legal be doing drugs all the time?

Just because you can drink, do you get absolutely ****faced every morning just because you can? No.
Do you smash a few lines of blow in the morning before work? No.. Being legal or illegal changes nothing. Those that are want to do it will do it anyway.

There is no such thing as a meth user who is not addicted to meth or a cocaine user who is not addicted to cocacine.
 

Revorocks

Junior member
There is no such thing as a meth user who is not addicted to meth or a cocaine user who is not addicted to cocacine.

And what could you possibly base that on?
Thats like me saying there is no such thing as someone who drinks alcohol who isnt addicted to alcohol...
 

hhiusa

Senior member
And what could you possibly base that on?
Thats like me saying there is no such thing as someone who drinks alcohol who isnt addicted to alcohol...

apparently you have very little understanding of pharmacology. alcohol is not nearly as addictive as cocaine or meth. cocaine gives a quicker build up of the neurochemical dopamine than alcohol does. The brain then produces more dopamine receptors to compensate, which increases the bodies want to have those receptors bound to again (craving). in order to keep the brain cells working at appropriate levels. The brain then increases the threshold at which dopamine can make a response; thus the craving increases.

Jornal of Sciences and practice perspectives - The neurobiology of cocaine addiction.
Eric J. Nestler Ph.D.
 

barjon

Legendary member
........................The whole point is if heroin becomes a legal prescribed drug then the novelty wears off and it becomes associated with doctors and sickness. Hence, it loses appeal to the bored young as some daring drug to be thrilled by..........................

:LOL::LOL:That's a rational mind talking - shame that a heroin users brain circuits soon lose rationality.
 

Revorocks

Junior member
apparently you have very little understanding of pharmacology. alcohol is not nearly as addictive as cocaine or meth. cocaine gives a quicker build up of the neurochemical dopamine than alcohol does. The brain then produces more dopamine receptors to compensate, which increases the bodies want to have those receptors bound to again (craving). in order to keep the brain cells working at appropriate levels. The brain then increases the threshold at which dopamine can make a response; thus the craving increases.

Jornal of Sciences and practice perspectives - The neurobiology of cocaine addiction.
Eric J. Nestler Ph.D.

I don't deny they arent addictive. I am well aware of that being very true, but you can't just make a blanket statement saying everyone who's ever tried it is addicted.

I know loads of recreational drug users. None of them are addicts. They use choose to take drugs the same way you might chose to have a drink when you go out. It's perfectly manageable....
 

hhiusa

Senior member
I don't deny they arent addictive. I am well aware of that being very true, but you can't just make a blanket statement saying everyone who's ever tried it is addicted.

I know loads of recreational drug users. None of them are addicts. They use choose to take drugs the same way you might chose to have a drink when you go out. It's perfectly manageable....

That's an addicts mentality. That's how addiction starts, by telling yourself it is under control. It is physiologically impossible for someone to recreationally use heroin or cocaine.
 

Atilla

Legendary member
:LOL::LOL:That's a rational mind talking - shame that a heroin users brain circuits soon lose rationality.


Rationalise you say...


Portugal facts; changing the offense from a criminal one, with prison a possible punishment, to an administrative one if the amount possessed was no more than ten days' supply of that substance.


Increased uptake of treatment.[11]

Reduction in new HIV diagnoses amongst drug users by 17%[17]

Reduction in drug related deaths, although this reduction has decreased in later years. The number of drug related deaths is now almost on the same level as before the Drug strategy was implemented.[11][17] However, this may be accounted for by improvement in measurement practices, which includes a doubling of toxicological autopsies now being performed, meaning that more drugs related deaths are likely to be recorded.[18]

Reported lifetime use of "all illicit drugs" increased from 7.8% to 12%, lifetime use of cannabis increased from 7.6% to 11.7%, cocaine use more than doubled, from 0.9% to 1.9%, ecstasy nearly doubled from 0.7% to 1.3%, and heroin increased from 0.7% to 1.1%[17] It has been proposed that this effect may have been related to the candor of interviewees, who may have been inclined to answer more truthfully due to a reduction in the stigma associated with drug use.[18]

However, during the same period, the use of heroin and cannabis also increased in Spain and Italy, where drugs for personal use was decriminalised many years earlier than in Portugal [18][19] while the use of Cannabis and heroin decreased in the rest of Western Europe.[20][21]

Drug use among adolescents (13-15 yrs) and "problematic" users declined.[18]

Drug-related criminal justice workloads decreased.[18]

Decreased street value of most illicit drugs, some significantly.[18]


Note:
In July 2001, a new law maintained the status of illegality for using or possessing any drug for personal use without authorization. The offense was changed from a criminal one, with prison a possible punishment, to an administrative one if the amount possessed was no more than ten days' supply of that substance.[1] This was in line with the de facto Portuguese drug policy before the reform.

Drug addicts were then to be aggressively targeted with therapy or community service rather than fines or waivers.[10] Even if there are no criminal penalties, these changes did not legalize drug use in Portugal. Possession has remained prohibited by Portuguese law, and criminal penalties are still applied to drug growers, dealers and traffickers.[11][12]


Nobody is saying legalise and make free all drugs. Simply don't treat users as criminals creating a bigger mess.




I suspect the tobacco, alcohol and pain killing drugs industry doesn't want cannabis legalised. Considering the refined regulated drug with it being less addictive and having less side effects will become choice of preference.
 

hhiusa

Senior member
Rationalise you say...

Portugal facts; changing the offense from a criminal one, with prison a possible punishment, to an administrative one if the amount possessed was no more than ten days' supply of that substance.

Increased uptake of treatment.[11]

Reduction in new HIV diagnoses amongst drug users by 17%[17]

Reduction in drug related deaths, although this reduction has decreased in later years. The number of drug related deaths is now almost on the same level as before the Drug strategy was implemented.[11][17] However, this may be accounted for by improvement in measurement practices, which includes a doubling of toxicological autopsies now being performed, meaning that more drugs related deaths are likely to be recorded.[18]

Reported lifetime use of "all illicit drugs" increased from 7.8% to 12%, lifetime use of cannabis increased from 7.6% to 11.7%, cocaine use more than doubled, from 0.9% to 1.9%, ecstasy nearly doubled from 0.7% to 1.3%, and heroin increased from 0.7% to 1.1%[17] It has been proposed that this effect may have been related to the candor of interviewees, who may have been inclined to answer more truthfully due to a reduction in the stigma associated with drug use.[18]

However, during the same period, the use of heroin and cannabis also increased in Spain and Italy, where drugs for personal use was decriminalised many years earlier than in Portugal [18][19] while the use of Cannabis and heroin decreased in the rest of Western Europe.[20][21]

Drug use among adolescents (13-15 yrs) and "problematic" users declined.[18]

Drug-related criminal justice workloads decreased.[18]

Decreased street value of most illicit drugs, some significantly.[18]

Basically, you copied the entire "Observation" section of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal#cite_note-Hughes2-18 and didn't paraphrase anything. That's pretty easy and not very thought provoking.

Note:
In July 2001, a new law maintained the status of illegality for using or possessing any drug for personal use without authorization. The offense was changed from a criminal one, with prison a possible punishment, to an administrative one if the amount possessed was no more than ten days' supply of that substance.[1] This was in line with the de facto Portuguese drug policy before the reform.

Drug addicts were then to be aggressively targeted with therapy or community service rather than fines or waivers.[10] Even if there are no criminal penalties, these changes did not legalize drug use in Portugal. Possession has remained prohibited by Portuguese law, and criminal penalties are still applied to drug growers, dealers and traffickers.[11][12]

Another copy and paste post. Here, this would have been much easier.

Screen_Shot_2015_06_23_at_11_33_28_AM.png

Screen_Shot_2015_06_23_at_11_33_05_AM.png



Nobody is saying legalise and make free all drugs. Simply don't treat users as criminals creating a bigger mess.


I suspect the tobacco, alcohol and pain killing drugs industry doesn't want cannabis legalised. Considering the refined regulated drug with it being less addictive and having less side effects will become choice of preference.

Way to go! You can copy and paste directly from Wikipedia. (n) You copied the numbers without the sources. Did you even read the articles listed as the secondary sources? You read all 314 pages of source 12? How about the 99 page report that has data mostly from 2005 in source 17?

Schedule I
Drugs with no currently accepted medical use and a high potential for abuse. These drugs have severe psychological and physiological dependence.
Heroin, lysergic acid diethylamide, cannabis, 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (ecstasy), methaqualone

Schedule II
Drugs requiring very controlled and monitored usage. These drugs also have severe psychological and physiological dependence.
Hydrocodone, cocaine (used as vasoconstricting agent), methamphetamine, hydromorphone (usually only in surgeries), ritalin (methyphenidate)...

Schedule III
Drugs with a moderate to low potential for abuse. Then there is schedule IV and V.

1. http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/attachements.cfm/att_137215_EN_PolicyProfile_Portugal_WEB_Final.pdf
11. http://www.beckleyfoundation.org/bib/doc/bf/2007_Caitlin_211672_1.pdf
12. http://www.unodc.org/documents/wdr/WDR_2009/WDR2009_eng_web.pdf
17. http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/attachements.cfm/att_34583_EN_NR2005Portugal.pdf
18. http://www.beckleyfoundation.org/bib/doc/bf/2010_Caitlin_211621_1.pdf
19. http://econ.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/yablon_daniel.pdf
20. http://lodel.irevues.inist.fr/crimprev/index.php?id=202
21. http://lodel.irevues.inist.fr/crimprev/index.php?id=234
 

Atilla

Legendary member
Wasn't trying to hide the link as it has been posted before.

Just picking out key points to show benefits of decriminalisation.


Now tell us what you think of the study instead of telling us what a knob you are?


Thanks,
(y)


Basically, you copied the entire "Observation" section of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal#cite_note-Hughes2-18 and didn't paraphrase anything. That's pretty easy and not very thought provoking.



Another copy and paste post. Here, this would have been much easier.

Screen_Shot_2015_06_23_at_11_33_28_AM.png

Screen_Shot_2015_06_23_at_11_33_05_AM.png




Way to go! You can copy and paste directly from Wikipedia. (n) You copied the numbers without the sources. Did you even read the articles listed as the secondary sources? You read all 314 pages of source 12? How about the 99 page report that has data mostly from 2005 in source 17?

Schedule I
Drugs with no currently accepted medical use and a high potential for abuse. These drugs have severe psychological and physiological dependence.
Heroin, lysergic acid diethylamide, cannabis, 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (ecstasy), methaqualone

Schedule II
Drugs requiring very controlled and monitored usage. These drugs also have severe psychological and physiological dependence.
Hydrocodone, cocaine (used as vasoconstricting agent), methamphetamine, hydromorphone (usually only in surgeries), ritalin (methyphenidate)...

Schedule III
Drugs with a moderate to low potential for abuse. Then there is schedule IV and V.

1. http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/attachements.cfm/att_137215_EN_PolicyProfile_Portugal_WEB_Final.pdf
11. http://www.beckleyfoundation.org/bib/doc/bf/2007_Caitlin_211672_1.pdf
12. http://www.unodc.org/documents/wdr/WDR_2009/WDR2009_eng_web.pdf
17. http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/attachements.cfm/att_34583_EN_NR2005Portugal.pdf
18. http://www.beckleyfoundation.org/bib/doc/bf/2010_Caitlin_211621_1.pdf
19. http://econ.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/yablon_daniel.pdf
20. http://lodel.irevues.inist.fr/crimprev/index.php?id=202
21. http://lodel.irevues.inist.fr/crimprev/index.php?id=234
 

hhiusa

Senior member
Wasn't trying to hide the link as it has been posted before.

Just picking out key points to show benefits of decriminalisation.


Now tell us what you think of the study instead of telling us what a knob you are?


Thanks,
(y)

I stated that the scheduling exists for a reason. How is that you pointing out any key points? You pasted an entire section from Wikipedia without paraphrasing. Those are someone else's key points. Now who is the knob! You didn't post what you thought of the articles, if you even bothered to read them.

Schedule I
Drugs with no currently accepted medical use and a high potential for abuse. These drugs have severe psychological and physiological dependence.
Heroin, lysergic acid diethylamide, cannabis, 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (ecstasy), methaqualone

Schedule II
Drugs requiring very controlled and monitored usage. These drugs also have severe psychological and physiological dependence.
Hydrocodone, cocaine (used as vasoconstricting agent), methamphetamine, hydromorphone (usually only in surgeries), ritalin (methyphenidate)...

Schedule III
Drugs with a moderate to low potential for abuse. Then there is schedule IV and V.
 

tomorton

Legendary member
At the end of the day, whether they obtained their drugs legally or illegally and no matter if they hold down a job, I wouldn't trust a druggie to hold my jacket while I search for my house keys.
 

counter_violent

Legendary member
There's nothing new in this debate.

On the one side...we have the mostly silent majority who either know from limited experience, or just know instinctively that drug use, inc alcohol and tobacco if you like, are just wrong and of no use to users and society.

Then we have the youth who will not take any advice from their more experienced elders and betters about the dangers that lie ahead.

Another thing that completely pi55es me off is the term "recreational drug use", as if there is no short, medium, or long term risk of addiction and or damage over time.

http://www.schizophrenia.com/research/cannabis.htm

People once thought that asbestos was the new wonder building material.....they don't think that any longer do they !!

There's a reason why governments act to protect people from danger and themselves. Tis the reason why we have seat bets in cars and health and safety law and EC standards for electrical appliances. The list is endless.

So what makes anyone think that the drug lobby should be listened to ahead of the views of the silent majority who elect government to ensure and enact if needed, in the interests of people's general wellbeing.
 
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Atilla

Legendary member
There's nothing new in this debate.

..

..

So what makes anyone think that the drug lobby should be listened to ahead of the views of the silent majority who elect government to ensure and enact if needed, in the interests of people's general wellbeing.




Key points of issue;

A. In the hands of the criminals cannabis has been engineered towards more potent and dangerous strains called skunk which contains more THC

B. Medical profession having started studying the pure hash form and have identified CBD to have significant benefits.

Also;

A. Treating drug abuse as criminal activity aggravates and leads to a sick society making criminals very rich at the cost of public interest in general.

B. Decriminalizing drugs abuse and educating the mass public has positive outcomes. Reduces criminal elements income and benefits society as a whole treating drug abuse as a sickness which it is and not creating criminals.



We are looking at a new perspective, new ideas, new solutions.

KISS :idea:


.
 
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