Drugs - the solution

tomorton

Legendary member
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Fair enough and a good point.

Random anti-aircraft gunning of anyone without a job - on drugs or not.

And to counteract the potential drop in employment caused by the shrinking consumer base into which to sell product & service you could enforce immigration from drug-free and hard-working cultures. Bring em over in chains if need be.


You say this is a solutuion - I'm sure you're being ironic, not serious.

But I don't say there's a solution, I say there's no solution, and certainly not through anything as unimaginative as legalising or criminalising drugs or anything else.
 

Pat Riley

Established member
794 178
No irony intended and obviously not bein serious either. It's one of those things which are so serious and so dire and so completely devoid of any immediate solution that ya have ta make light of it or you'll start takin everything too seriously. I'll duck out of this one as my take on these things may not be ta everyone else's taste.
 
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new_trader

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6,665 1,489
You say this is a solutuion - I'm sure you're being ironic, not serious.

But I don't say there's a solution, I say there's no solution, and certainly not through anything as unimaginative as legalising or criminalising drugs or anything else.

Really? So, you don't think the US Government's utterly failed experiment with prohibition in the 1920's serves as a good test case where the very opposite of what you think is actually true.

http://www.thefinertimes.com/20th-Century-Crime/organised-crime-in-the-1920s.html

After thirteen long years the government finally saw that prohibition was not working, it had infact created more of a problem than it solved, finally the government abolished the prohibition laws.
 
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tomorton

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Prohibiton was a failure. But don't forget at the other end of prohibition the US government legalised alcohol. That did nothing to eradicate organised or secondary crime either, so legalisation was a failure too.

We can't solve the problems our society has simply by legalising or criminalising things. In the real world these don't change things, they're just labels.

We have to have a more inaginative and deeper response in order to win this. Just because prohibition didn't work that doesn't mean legalisation would. We've tried prohibition of drugs and that's failed too. Let's not go down the legalisation cul de sac again as well.
 
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Pat Riley

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794 178
Apart from the organised crime which grew in support of illegal alcohol production & distribution, prohibition was a success in just about every other measure. Death from alcohol related disease, mental institution admissions, domestic abuse, non-organised (street) crime all fell during that period. That the bad outweighed the good (from political/public/media) perspective was sufficient to damn the entire 18th amendment.
 
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Atilla

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As per documentary posted by Lightning.M the public have been fed years of false inaccurate and misleading information. Coupled with scare stories there is distrust and fear in the mind of the public.

There are many allegations about drugs and people not supported by facts.
 

tomorton

Legendary member
8,422 1,346
Well, it might well be that prohibition of alcohol reduced alcohol consumption. But doesn't that mean that drug prohibition is actually keeping drug consumption low? And drug legalisation would lead to increased drug consumption, just like alcoholol consumption rose after its prohibition was lifted?
 

barjon

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10,705 1,809
As per documentary posted by Lightning.M the public have been fed years of false inaccurate and misleading information. Coupled with scare stories there is distrust and fear in the mind of the public.

There are many allegations about drugs and people not supported by facts.

It was all part of my working life and I would say that there is just as much misleading and false information purveyed by the the "legalise" brigade.

If you don't believe there should be legislation to protect people from themselves (seat belt type stuff) when the "cost" to society is relatively slight (cost to NHS in treating the addiction and its knock-on effects), then there is something of an argument to legalise drugs so long as you protect society from the consequences (a la "drunk and disorderly" "driving under the influence" with alcohol).

If, however, you are properly conversant with the extreme personal damage and mind changing effects caused by the addictions then it would be pretty irresponsible governance just to wash your hands of it.
 

Atilla

Legendary member
19,858 3,112
It was all part of my working life and I would say that there is just as much misleading and false information purveyed by the the "legalise" brigade.

If you don't believe there should be legislation to protect people from themselves (seat belt type stuff) when the "cost" to society is relatively slight (cost to NHS in treating the addiction and its knock-on effects), then there is something of an argument to legalise drugs so long as you protect society from the consequences (a la "drunk and disorderly" "driving under the influence" with alcohol).

If, however, you are properly conversant with the extreme personal damage and mind changing effects caused by the addictions then it would be pretty irresponsible governance just to wash your hands of it.


What you say is true and the point here is to raise the profile of what exactly we are criminalising and have the debate. To balance the argument exactly.

For too long we've been under the misguided biased opinions of failed policies.

Take the current high profile debate on cannabis a the moment. In the hands of the criminals cannabis known as hash has been modified to become the more potent and dangerous skunk. Modified and corrupted, uncontrolled and unregulated.

In the hands of the regulated and controlled pharmaceuticals one can even foresee the addictive harmful effects been removed. The drug being modified to become natures natural pain killer with no side effects (unlike paracetamol and many others).

So here we have natures pain killer which is banned whilst we are subjected to all sorts of medication with many serious side effects.


Don't know if anybody saw Jon Snow's Channel 4 program on Cannabis but well worth watching... Point is well made by the program.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/specta...earnt-skunk-causes-psychosis-and-weed-doesnt/


In the UK 80 per cent of cannabis sold on the street is skunk, and 24 per cent of new cases of psychosis are linked with its use. Clearly the answer is not prohibition. People haven’t stopped smoking dope because it’s banned, but they’re subjected to the dangers of an inferior product because there is no quality control and no freedom of consumer choice. Skunk is the moonshine of the modern black market for weed.
 

barjon

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.................Take the current high profile debate on cannabis a the moment. In the hands of the criminals cannabis known as hash has been modified to become the more potent and dangerous skunk. Modified and corrupted, uncontrolled and unregulated.

In the hands of the regulated and controlled pharmaceuticals one can even foresee the addictive harmful effects been removed. The drug being modified to become natures natural pain killer with no side effects (unlike paracetamol and many others)..................

Possibly, but skunk would remain the more potent choice and would remain in the hands of the criminals who would do their best to persuade youngsters that "pharmacy cannabis" was just like non-alcoholic beer so man up and get the real thing!!
 

new_trader

Legendary member
6,665 1,489
Possibly, but skunk would remain the more potent choice and would remain in the hands of the criminals who would do their best to persuade youngsters that "pharmacy cannabis" was just like non-alcoholic beer so man up and get the real thing!!

This is an argument in favour of legalisation!

"man up and take these illegal drugs instead of drinking alcohol"
 

Atilla

Legendary member
19,858 3,112
Possibly, but skunk would remain the more potent choice and would remain in the hands of the criminals who would do their best to persuade youngsters that "pharmacy cannabis" was just like non-alcoholic beer so man up and get the real thing!!


In the absence of the gardener weeds will grow and flowers be starved of light.

Look at the evidence and case studies! Has anyone read the excellent case study for Portugal posted by ffsear?


We have 70mph limits on our roads and Government regulation allows the production of cars that can travel at 100+ mph.

So if individuals can drive responsibly and road system, safety rules and laws manage millions of drivers interacting with each other at high speeds you saying cannabis will get out of control?

It has precisely because of government prohibition leaving the field open to criminals.


Do you not see this?

You suspect system can not be improved?

You believe it will end up worse?


In the UK 80 per cent of cannabis sold on the street is skunk, and 24 per cent of new cases of psychosis are linked with its use. Clearly the answer is not prohibition. People haven’t stopped smoking dope because it’s banned, but they’re subjected to the dangers of an inferior product because there is no quality control and no freedom of consumer choice. Skunk is the moonshine of the modern black market for weed.
 

new_trader

Legendary member
6,665 1,489
If you don't believe there should be legislation to protect people from themselves

I can't imagine how anyone in their right mind can support laws that allegedly protect people from themselves...why not make sugar, salt, fatty foods, confectionary, skydiving, scuba diving and taking a bath illegal?

The Government doesn't exist to play the role of parent, its job is to protect individual rights, not take them away. Do you really want the Government raising your children? I can't think of anything worse.

As far as 'protecting people from themselves', do some research on victimless crimes and then ask yourself if the drug addict currently being **** raped in gaol has been protected from himself thanks to the Government.
 

barjon

Legendary member
10,705 1,809
I can't imagine how anyone in their right mind can support laws that allegedly protect people from themselves...why not make sugar, salt, fatty foods, confectionary, skydiving, scuba diving and taking a bath illegal?

The Government doesn't exist to play the role of parent, its job is to protect individual rights, not take them away. Do you really want the Government raising your children? I can't think of anything worse.

As far as 'protecting people from themselves', do some research on victimless crimes and then ask yourself if the drug addict currently being **** raped in gaol has been protected from himself thanks to the Government.

Yeah, I agree with most of that. One of the effects of so much "protect you from yourselves" legislation has been a huge diminution in the concept of personal responsibility. It's always someone else's fault nowadays (and I've got the lawyer to prove it :LOL:)
 
 
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