new_trader
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What are your thoughts/opinions/views?
Does trading require talent?
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FXSCALPER2
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Yes. Traders are born. not made.
Of course!
Don't rock my boat. I think that I am with a very talented bunch of people
Split
new_trader
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Of course!
Don't rock my boat. I think that I am with a very talented bunch of people
Split
Do you think anyone can be taught to trade or is it something where you either 'get it' or you don't?
Profitaker
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The Turtle experiment was set-up to answer this very question. If you believe in the purported success of the Turtles (and I do), the answer is no, it doesn't require talent, but a skill set which can be trained.
I think that you can be taught the basics of what to look for in a very short time. Some things you can "get". Other things, your intelligence tells you does not make sense. And still other things tell you that the person telling you his theory is much more intelligent than you are and you'll never "get" what he is talking about.
Just be happy with what you "get" and be philosophical about what you can't. Trading is not rocket science.
Split
barjon
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As with most human endeavour there are those who seem to have a natural talent for the activity (a few); those who attain a level of competence commensurate with the amount of well-directed work they put in (the majority); and those who simply can't (a few).
JuniorMark
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Trader is a talented and lucky player
with a sense of pessimism
with a sense of pessimism
damianoakley
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Hi All,
I would say that Trading can be taught to anyone who has the inclination and passion to want to learn the business, and I think that is true of any job or business.
We are not all born with the knowledge and skills to do specific jobs.....we choose to follow a certain vocation, usually based on an interest in that direction and then we learn and develop skills in that chosen field.
Having said that, I do believe that some people are born with certain attitudes and psychological biases that would make them more suitable within certain fields than other people. For example, I am trying to learn how to play golf. Now, for me, that is going to take a lot of lessons and a lot of work because the body movements required to play well just don't come naturally to me. A friend of mine was able to take to the sport quickly without any lessons - the moves just came naturally to him. I'm sure I can get to his level, but it is going to take me a long time to get to the same place that came so naturally and quickly to him.
And so it is with trading. I have worked with some traders in the past who have been able to grasp what I show them very quickly - they just have a natural tendancy towards what I am showing them. Others, take a long time to grasp the same things, BUT THEY ALL REACH THE SAME PLACE, just at different speeds.
The key to it all is that if you really WANT to learn something, then eventually you will.
In trading, many people give it up when they finally learn what it really entails....
Thanks
Damian
I would say that Trading can be taught to anyone who has the inclination and passion to want to learn the business, and I think that is true of any job or business.
We are not all born with the knowledge and skills to do specific jobs.....we choose to follow a certain vocation, usually based on an interest in that direction and then we learn and develop skills in that chosen field.
Having said that, I do believe that some people are born with certain attitudes and psychological biases that would make them more suitable within certain fields than other people. For example, I am trying to learn how to play golf. Now, for me, that is going to take a lot of lessons and a lot of work because the body movements required to play well just don't come naturally to me. A friend of mine was able to take to the sport quickly without any lessons - the moves just came naturally to him. I'm sure I can get to his level, but it is going to take me a long time to get to the same place that came so naturally and quickly to him.
And so it is with trading. I have worked with some traders in the past who have been able to grasp what I show them very quickly - they just have a natural tendancy towards what I am showing them. Others, take a long time to grasp the same things, BUT THEY ALL REACH THE SAME PLACE, just at different speeds.
The key to it all is that if you really WANT to learn something, then eventually you will.
In trading, many people give it up when they finally learn what it really entails....
Thanks
Damian
Rhody Trader
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The use of the word "talent" always gets me in these discussions. Trading is not a talent, but rather a collection of them. Think of all the elements of good trading. It's not just one thing you need to be at least competent (or have access to competence) in to have success.
Consider football (soccer to my fellow Yanks). Speed, passing, fitness, finishing, positioning, other things all come in to play. The best of the best excel in multiple areas, but there are a lot of players we would consider quite good who are very specialized.
Carlos Valderamma was a highly regarded player on the international scene during his playing career as fantastic playmaker. He could hold posession and find the right pass with seaming ease. He was not a finisher, though, nor was he very fleet of foot. He excelled in certain areas, but certainly not all of them. Even still he would be judged a successful player by most standards.
The advantage Valderamma had was that he could be surrounded by others with specialized skills to compliment him. In trading we all tend to work alone so we either need to develop reasonable skills across the board, or somehow have access to tools which make up for our short-comings.
That does beg the question, though, why folks don't join forces more. Seems that would be the logical thing to do.
Oh wait. That's what hedge funds do.
But we also have to consider the question of "success"? That word gets tossed around a lot but it's never defined. To my mind, we can all be successful. It's just a question of expectations and how we each measure success. It needs to be done realistically based on our strengths, weaknesses, risk tolerance, etc. I think much of the trouble which leads folks to be in larger proportion of losing traders is unrealistic expecations.
Think of it this way. The number of football players on par with Thierry Henry is a miniscule fraction. At the same time, though, most folks understand that and while the kids might aspire to be Henry in the long run, they know when they are still learning the game that they are a long way away. It's the same with traders capable of making regular triple digit annual returns, but someone a lot of new traders think they can jump in and do just that. Those of who last in the market figure out what success really means, just like football player who idolized George Best growing up but became a keeper instead.
Consider football (soccer to my fellow Yanks). Speed, passing, fitness, finishing, positioning, other things all come in to play. The best of the best excel in multiple areas, but there are a lot of players we would consider quite good who are very specialized.
Carlos Valderamma was a highly regarded player on the international scene during his playing career as fantastic playmaker. He could hold posession and find the right pass with seaming ease. He was not a finisher, though, nor was he very fleet of foot. He excelled in certain areas, but certainly not all of them. Even still he would be judged a successful player by most standards.
The advantage Valderamma had was that he could be surrounded by others with specialized skills to compliment him. In trading we all tend to work alone so we either need to develop reasonable skills across the board, or somehow have access to tools which make up for our short-comings.
That does beg the question, though, why folks don't join forces more. Seems that would be the logical thing to do.
Oh wait. That's what hedge funds do.
But we also have to consider the question of "success"? That word gets tossed around a lot but it's never defined. To my mind, we can all be successful. It's just a question of expectations and how we each measure success. It needs to be done realistically based on our strengths, weaknesses, risk tolerance, etc. I think much of the trouble which leads folks to be in larger proportion of losing traders is unrealistic expecations.
Think of it this way. The number of football players on par with Thierry Henry is a miniscule fraction. At the same time, though, most folks understand that and while the kids might aspire to be Henry in the long run, they know when they are still learning the game that they are a long way away. It's the same with traders capable of making regular triple digit annual returns, but someone a lot of new traders think they can jump in and do just that. Those of who last in the market figure out what success really means, just like football player who idolized George Best growing up but became a keeper instead.
Rhody Trader
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That's awfully nebulous and sounds more related to the structure of the financial institutions rather than having necessarily anything to do with the markets themselves. Not that a bit of knowledge of how it all comes together is a bad thing, mind you.
Snownation
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I think to a certain extent, traders are born traders.
Some genetic attributes are required to be sucessful. Things like aggressiveness. If you're quite the risk adverse player, you would be afraid of losing even 0.5% of your account.
Some genetic attributes are required to be sucessful. Things like aggressiveness. If you're quite the risk adverse player, you would be afraid of losing even 0.5% of your account.
Rhody Trader
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I would argue that aggressiveness and risk aversion are not necessarily related. One can be risk averse in terms of seeking out trading opportunities but very aggressive in acting once they are identified. Aggressiveness (to my mind) does not equate to recklessness.
Couldn't agree more.
Trading is a skill set that can be learned. So long as one is willing to put in the time and effort anyone can achieve "success" at this game. Of course how one defines success will play a role as well.
To me success would be reaching a consistently profitable level of ability.
If success is defined as being able to see the chart floating off to the right of your screen and picking exact tops and bottoms and knowing everything in advance then I would argue that it doesn't matter if traders are born or made, no one will reach success.
Cheers,
PKFFW
FXSCALPER2
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It is really amazing to me that people think trading cane be learned by anyone. That is clearly not supported by the evidence. To the contrary, the evidence shows that only a tiny percentage of people can learn to trade profitably over the long term. When I speak of talent, I mean all the qualities one needs to be a trader. The reason why people think trading can be learned is because it looks really easy when you look at a price chart. In FX there are hundreds of pips of flactualtions every day, there are tiny ranges that sometimes go on for hours. Anyone with average intelligence can see, usually after the fact, it cannot be that hard to exploit the market. It is very easy to conclude trading can be learned provided you have dicspline, etc.
Ask yourself why most people who try it fail. I have observed rows of people sitting and watching the same price moves, the same news items and generally the same information. Almost everyone ends up losing. How is it possible that something that is learnable poses such incredible obstacles for everyone who tries it? In any other walk of life, everyone would agree that this is stuff only a few people can do and we usually accept those who can do it have a gift.
When it comes to trading we are quick to assume anyone can do it. Why? Calearly only few people can do it. If you compse music, you are gifted, if you can do high level maths, you are gifted, if you can win the marathon you are gifted, etc. For some reason, you don't need to be gifted to trade successfully. That makes no sense.
It is true there are some human activities where you can be good without being gifted. For example, anyone can learn kung fu given enough time. How do we know? Because everyone who tries it becomes good at it over time. In other words, the evidence is clear. In trading the evidence is more than clear that you need talent to make it.
Ask yourself why most people who try it fail. I have observed rows of people sitting and watching the same price moves, the same news items and generally the same information. Almost everyone ends up losing. How is it possible that something that is learnable poses such incredible obstacles for everyone who tries it? In any other walk of life, everyone would agree that this is stuff only a few people can do and we usually accept those who can do it have a gift.
When it comes to trading we are quick to assume anyone can do it. Why? Calearly only few people can do it. If you compse music, you are gifted, if you can do high level maths, you are gifted, if you can win the marathon you are gifted, etc. For some reason, you don't need to be gifted to trade successfully. That makes no sense.
It is true there are some human activities where you can be good without being gifted. For example, anyone can learn kung fu given enough time. How do we know? Because everyone who tries it becomes good at it over time. In other words, the evidence is clear. In trading the evidence is more than clear that you need talent to make it.
Rhody Trader
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I would make two counter points.
First winning a marathon (to use one of your examples) is only considered success by a relatively few. Most folks consider it a success to finish and/or to make a certain time. In other words, success is extremely relative. Trading is absolutely no different.
Second, your point about kung fu (and other activities) is a fair one. Given enough time and practice any of us can become "good" at anything. That doesn't mean we necessarily excel, of course, but we can be at least passably competent. The problem with trying to relate that to trading is the forced drop out rate. If you blow yourself up you can't trade anymore. If someone can avoid do so, and thereby stick around in the markets long enough to learn what they need to learn, then they can develop the necessary competence to be successful - whatever that means for them.
To relate it more closely to kung fu, imagine an environment where kung fu is actually used in life and death combat. In such a situation weak fighters (read new) would get knocked out on a very frequent basis. Those that were able to avoid getting killed would eventually develop the necessary skills and experience. Same idea as trading.
