Considering Switching from OANDA to LMAX (via LQD Markets)

[Purple Brain]

Clicked on a LQDMarkets ad banner this morning and was interested to note they offered both fixed and floating spreads. The small print on their 'fixed' spreads said they were fixed 99.79% of the time.

I had a chat with them about what happens during the 0.21% of the time they weren't actually 'fixed' anymore. They said the couldn't predict volatility and couldn't give me any indication what the 'fixed' spreads would be at times of high market volatility, but would be in line with the floating spreads at those times. LOL.

When I asked what their historical maximum spreads were across the majors, they said they didn't have that data. I pointed out that giving me accuracy to two decimal places on how often they were fixed which suggested they should have that sort of data to hand. They were awfully sorry, but they didn't.

I asked the sales guy if they were thinking of selling their company any time soon. He said he didn't know but didn't think so and asked me why I was asking. I told them it was coming up to Christmas and my little nephew wants a cowboy outfit. I would have copied and pasted the transcript, but I lost my connection at this point. No, I really did.

What a bunch of jokers.

 

[random12345]

Clicked on an ad banner this morning and was interested to note they offered both fixed and floating spreads. The small print on their 'fixed' spreads said they were fixed 99.79% of the time.

I had a chat with them about what happens during the 0.21% of the time they weren't actually 'fixed' anymore. They said the couldn't predict volatility and couldn't give me any indication what the 'fixed' spreads would be at times of high market volatility, but would be in line with the floating spreads at those times. LOL.

When I asked what their historical maximum spreads were across the majors, they said they didn't have that data. I pointed out that giving me accuracy to two decimal places on how often they were fixed which suggested they should have that sort of data to hand. They were awfully sorry, but they didn't.

I asked the sales guy if they were thinking of selling their company any time soon. He said he didn't know but didn't think so and asked me why I was asking. I told them it was coming up to Christmas and my little nephew wants a cowboy outfit. I would have copied and pasted the transcript, but I lost my connection at this point. No, I really did.

What a bunch of jokers.

Don't doubt this mob are dodgy, but what other answer did you expect re spread widening on the second paragraph, fixed or otherwise? I don't get why you put LOL after that paragraph to be honest.

Anyway, save yourself from these retail brokers and sign up with LMAX... just do it...

 

[Shakone]

Is that the Voynich manuscript in your avatar, PB? A great hoax?

I suggest you get an ad banner blocker to prevent this sort of incident.

 

[Purple Brain]

Don't doubt this mob are dodgy, but what other answer did you expect re spread widening on the second paragraph, fixed or otherwise? I don't get why you put LOL after that paragraph to be honest.

Because to brazenly state you'll get the same spread on a 'fixed' ticket as on a floating spread account made me laugh. I expected subtle misdirection and clever sales techniques.

Anyway, save yourself from these retail brokers and sign up with LMAX... just do it...

No thanks. I tried talking to them and got a simialrly unimpressive response. I'll stick with OANDA - at least you know the maximum they're going to rip off the spread and you can manage around (or through) that.

 

[Purple Brain]

Is that the Voynich manuscript in your avatar, PB? A great hoax?

They only seeded the idea it was a hoax to put people off being interested in it. Once you get into it, it makes uncommon sense. But it does take a lot of effort.

It's changed my trading completely. No stops. Random direction and random exits.

I suggest you get an ad banner blocker to prevent this sort of incident.

It wasn't on here Shakone, it was on the fxstreet FX calendar. I don't usually click on anything of this nature, but the fixed or floating option interested me from a recent exchange I had on the thread here by Magos.

 

[random12345]

Because to brazenly state you'll get the same spread on a 'fixed' ticket as on a floating spread account made me laugh. I expected subtle misdirection and clever sales techniques.

No thanks. I tried talking to them and got a simialrly unimpressive response. I'll stick with OANDA - at least you know the maximum they're going to rip off the spread and you can manage around (or through) that.

Are you sure the questions you are asking are relevant...?

What unimpressive response did you get from LMAX? Re: what was your historical max spread? Even a Prime Broker wouldn't give you this stat because it's utter nonsense. So you want the OTC spread that existed during the millisecond the biggest NFP differential ever was released or perhaps during the second that Fed intervention in Fannie Mae hit the wire? Would you be satisfied with that answer and how would you use that information? A better question might be to ask what the average spread during the 2 mins before and after the NFP release is. This has some pertinence. I was speaking with a few members of T2W about how you can take a horse to water, or in this case be presented with an institutional grade platform for a pitiful $10,000 buy in and people STILL won't take it. Apart from thicker orders around the spread limits, you would not get (much) better execution and spreads at db FXPB... it blows my mind.

The only reason to use Oanda is their level of capitalisation. As a future going concern among retail brokers they are second to none, but they are simply there to service average Joe.

 

[Purple Brain]

Are you sure the questions you are asking are relevant...?

They’re relevant to me.

What unimpressive response did you get from LMAX?

I have posted up the transcript somewhere – can’t remember where.

Re: what was your historical max spread? Even a Prime Broker wouldn't give you this stat because it's utter nonsense.

What? Of course it’s not nonsense. It’s empirical data and data which I can use to decide how to trade into or through deata releases depending on where I am in my trade.

So you want the OTC spread that existed during the millisecond the biggest NFP differential ever was released or perhaps during the second that Fed intervention in Fannie Mae hit the wire? Would you be satisfied with that answer and how would you use that information?

Yes, that’s precisely the information I require and exactly the information OANDA can and does provide to their clients. If they can do it – all of the others should, in principle, be able to do so too.

A better question might be to ask what the average spread during the 2 mins before and after the NFP release is. This has some pertinence.

You get that too, though for the life of me I have no idea how you could consider an info on the average spread useful. If I know eur/usd it around 1 pip most of the time, but at other, specific times it can max at 10 or 15 or 30 (depending on type of data release) – that’s far more useful in managing an open position ahead of, or through, data releases. See attached screenshot. The lettered boxes on the X-axis provide details of the news release in question on mouse-over.

I was speaking with a few members of T2W about how you can take a horse to water, or in this case be presented with an institutional grade platform for a pitiful $10,000 buy in and people STILL won't take it. Apart from thicker orders around the spread limits, you would not get (much) better execution and spreads at db FXPB... it blows my mind.

The only reason to use Oanda is their level of capitalisation. As a future going concern among retail brokers they are second to none, but they are simply there to service average Joe.

I’m about as average a Joe as you’ll find and I look forward to the day when I reach your rarefied levels and can also look down on the great unwashed piddling around with their sub-$10k pocket money.

 

[random12345]

What? Of course it’s not nonsense. It’s empirical data and data which I can use to decide how to trade into or through deata releases depending on where I am in my trade.

Yes it's nonsense. Knowing the spread on the Friday where the actual was so different to the forecast that rolling market orders from low latency cross market systems thundered LP dependent OTC broker spreads as high as say, 50, is respectfully crap. OANDA won't give you that figure because they'd simply issue an instrument suspension until the spread settles as they're not going to price you a spread cheaper than the underlying. So they're giving you their max spread ignoring suspensions - wow - a needless stat, you could still find yourself deep beyond your stop once the instrument is truly enabled. No broker is going to conjure you up liquidity that doesn't exist to anybody anywhere.

You get that too, though for the life of me I have no idea how you could consider an info on the average spread useful. If I know eur/usd it around 1 pip most of the time, but at other, specific times it can max at 10 or 15 or 30 (depending on type of data release) – that’s far more useful in managing an open position ahead of, or through, data releases. See attached screenshot. The lettered boxes on the X-axis provide details of the news release in question on mouse-over.

LMAX's spread is basically the market spread insofar as that is possible in retail forex. Thus, what's the point in them telling you the historical max as you're not going to get a better unsuspended price with what you have available regardless? It's like asking ASDA what their priciest bottle of milk ever has been even if they've always been 20% cheaper than their competitors at all times and then using that to decide who to buy milk off. As I said a Prime Broker would not tell you this because they rely on other counterparties to make the spread and have no way of knowing what it might one day max out at and nor would they track it because it's a needless question. Knowing the max spread thus far is 20 implies nothing for the future. All you need to know is if it's the best the market can do for you. You might as well trade 6E if you want a solid spread - instead it will just spike you out of position but the spread will be basically the same...

I’m about as average a Joe as you’ll find and I look forward to the day when I reach your rarefied levels and can also look down on the great unwashed piddling around with their sub-$10k pocket money.

Then listen to me and not people like DAX30. Lap up HH, HL, LL, LH tripe and ignore this...

It's up to you, best of luck to you.

 

[Purple Brain]

Yes it's nonsense. Knowing the spread on the Friday where the actual was so different to the forecast that rolling market orders from low latency cross market systems thundered LP dependent OTC broker spreads as high as say, 50, is respectfully crap. OANDA won't give you that figure because they'd simply issue an instrument suspension until the spread settles as they're not going to price you a spread cheaper than the underlying. So they're giving you their max spread ignoring suspensions - wow - a needless stat, you could still find yourself deep beyond your stop once the instrument is truly enabled. No broker is going to conjure you up liquidity that doesn't exist to anybody anywhere.

Look random12345, I appreciate your effort in responding and envy your obvious experience and knowledge, but with respect, you’re missing the point. If OANDA have never quoted more than say 30 pips on eur/usd, and I’m in a trade coming up to NFP (unlikely) and my stop is more than their max historical spread away from current price level and if I had no technical basis for exiting the trade (hypothetical, as NFP would be reason enough for me) then could choose to stay in the trade. Yes of course OANDA could say they had to widen to 50 pips and I’d get taken out, but the fact is, looking at the screenshot I provided – they didn’t. Tuesday (last week’s late Sept NFP) shows a maximum of 15 pips. As for instrument suspension it’s not something I’ve ever encountered.

Can I suggest if you’re getting instrument suspension and spreads of 50 pips on LMAX that you take a look at OANDA as they would seem pretty good in comparison.

 

[random12345]

I'm not missing the point, I'm saying I think your data gives you false bias in broker choice. Any market maker could limit the spread to their thinnest depth during NFP to make it look as good as somewhere like LMAX or IB on venues like myfxbook and then slip you the difference into thicker liquidity when it comes to execute on your supposed bid/ask during stuff like the NFP. If your order doesn't trigger then they lost nothing and weren't exposed to any risk by doing this since it wasn't a massaged spread. So the very best you can hope for here is a service almost equal to proven ECNs/MTFs because Oanda can't improve over this - they have a lot of LPs, but they don't have the ability to control OTC spreads... nobody does... so if I said to you that a prime broker is offering you a margin acct with full access to all 140 or so counterparties on their books and a low latency matching engine to these counterparties, but they couldn't give you a max historical spread, you'd stick with Oanda??? It's my belief that LMAX is essentially a prime broker in this respect, albeit with thinner liquidity and higher comms, which is why I don't get why more here don't use them.

If you API trade with Oanda at a relatively high order rate and they guarantee no last look then you will see suspensions in time as they can't reject/re-quote through this venue.

Either way I've had my two cents and you can do as you like of course.

 

[Liquid validity]

I’m about as average a Joe as you’ll find and I look forward to the day when I reach your rarefied levels and can also look down on the great unwashed piddling around with their sub-$10k pocket money.

$10k is just over £6k, TBH to trade any reasonable worthwhile size you are going to
need at least £1500 - 2000 margin minimum anyway, thats without allowing a
reasonable buffer for losing trades and drawdown or worst case margin call.
So that puts you up to at least £3-4k, not too far away from the LMAX minimum of £6k.

 

[hungcable]

$10k is just over £6k, TBH to trade any reasonable worthwhile size you are going to
need at least £1500 - 2000 margin minimum anyway, thats without allowing a
reasonable buffer for losing trades and drawdown or worst case margin call.
So that puts you up to at least £3-4k, not too far away from the LMAX minimum of £6k.

"worthwhile size"? Could you elaborate?

 

[Liquid validity]

"worthwhile size"? Could you elaborate?

Depends on trade duration and risk etc.
You know, you need money to make money.
Don't have much, won't make much, or will take on greater risk,
which usually only ends one way.

Worthwhile size is entirely dependent on what you think
a worthwhile return is.
By and large though, no one is going to turn 2k into 200k for instance.
Bankroll size is the main factor in determining trade size.
A more accurate way of saying it is return on investment.
Generally, unless you are an extremely good swing trader,
small trade size will give small returns (thats assuming profit at all...).

ROI (return on investment) percentages really need context with hard figures.
What would you rather have 200% of 5k, or 18% of 250k?
A ROI of 18% is more realistic and achievable than 200%.
So if you are to have any chance at all, assuming you know what you are
doing regarding handling risk and drawdown, you stand a better chance with a larger bankroll.
The main reason most traders fail is excessive risk, usually to compensate
for lack of capital
Obviously if you don't have a clue, even with 200k you will still lose it.

Bankroll size is the main factor in determining trade size.
There is only so far that can be stretched with swing trading (lower trade frequency)
or Stops that are so tight they get hit too often or trade risk does not factor
in account leverage (not to be confused with margin leverage - despite the fact they often are).

 

[hungcable]

Worthwhile size is entirely dependent on what you think
a worthwhile return is.


Assuming you are consistently profitable? So where do, LMAX or OANDA, come into this? Please, enlighten me.

 

[Purple Brain]

I'm not missing the point, I'm saying I think your data gives you false bias in broker choice. Any market maker could limit the spread to their thinnest depth during NFP to make it look as good as somewhere like LMAX or IB on venues like myfxbook and then slip you the difference into thicker liquidity when it comes to execute on your supposed bid/ask during stuff like the NFP. If your order doesn't trigger then they lost nothing and weren't exposed to any risk by doing this since it wasn't a massaged spread. So the very best you can hope for here is a service almost equal to proven ECNs/MTFs because Oanda can't improve over this - they have a lot of LPs, but they don't have the ability to control OTC spreads... nobody does... so if I said to you that a prime broker is offering you a margin acct with full access to all 140 or so counterparties on their books and a low latency matching engine to these counterparties, but they couldn't give you a max historical spread, you'd stick with Oanda??? It's my belief that LMAX is essentially a prime broker in this respect, albeit with thinner liquidity and higher comms, which is why I don't get why more here don't use them.

If you API trade with Oanda at a relatively high order rate and they guarantee no last look then you will see suspensions in time as they can't reject/re-quote through this venue.

Either way I've had my two cents and you can do as you like of course.

I really need to think about ordering my Big Boys Book of Market Acronyms and Phrases to even begin to consider responding to this. I'm sure you're not deliberately obfuscating things and talking it up and it's my relative inexperience that makes it seem like you are, but when all is said and done, I just want to know what's the maximum spread I'm likely to get hit with at any time so I can make an informed decision. OANDA tell me - nobody else seems to want to.

As for nominal spreads and execution speeds on retail platforms - they're all pretty much of a muchness for reasons which should be obvious.

Seriously, when I get to your level and I can read your post and understand every word - then I'll worry about the things you worry about.

 

[Liquid validity]

Worthwhile size is entirely dependent on what you think
a worthwhile return is.


Assuming you are consistently profitable? So where do, LMAX or OANDA, come into this? Please, enlighten me.

Is this a genuine question or are you taking the p1ss?
Point is LMAX 6k account minimum is not a vast amount if you want to make a decent return.
To make a reasonable return you need a reasonable sum to start with.
So the choice between LMAX or Oanda based on account minimum is erroneous
as you would still need at least 3-4k on account with Oanda plus the
rest of your bankroll to make a decent return.
If you aren't profitable, its irrelevant anyway.
I said all this in the last post...

 

[Liquid validity]

I really need to think about ordering my Big Boys Book of Market Acronyms and Phrases to even begin to consider responding to this. I'm sure you're not deliberately obfuscating things and talking it up and it's my relative inexperience that makes it seem like you are, but when all is said and done, I just want to know what's the maximum spread I'm likely to get hit with at any time so I can make an informed decision. OANDA tell me - nobody else seems to want to.

As for nominal spreads and execution speeds on retail platforms - they're all pretty much of a muchness for reasons which should be obvious.

Seriously, when I get to your level and I can read your post and understand every word - then I'll worry about the things you worry about.

PB he's trying to help you, its a simple fact that LMAX costs are lower than Oanda.
Compare the LMAX spreads to Oanda spreads (allowing for LMAX commission - 2.50 base currency per side per 100k)
at any time during tomorrow and every day after.

LMAX quotes and spreads window:
https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/...t-quote-prof-flex.html?a=rTWcS34L5WRQkHtC&f=1

Spreads and execution speed are not the same on most platforms.
That won't be an issue if you swing trade.
Anything more frequent, where the spread is a larger % of average
win / loss and its makes a big difference - in slippage and spread costs.

As for maximum spread, who cares, if its too wide don't trade it.
If you know the typical times it widens, don't trade those times.

Oanda may be better for live practice and learning due to smaller
capital outlay.
Other than that LMAX costs are better.

 

[hungcable]

Point is LMAX 6k account minimum is not a vast amount if you want to make a decent return.
To make a reasonable return you need a reasonable sum to start with.


"A decent return"...You just love making it up, cowboy.

 

[Liquid validity]

Point is LMAX 6k account minimum is not a vast amount if you want to make a decent return.
To make a reasonable return you need a reasonable sum to start with.


"A decent return"...You just love making it up, cowboy.

Thanks for clearing up the fact you are a f**king troll, f**k off
Why don't you explain as you obviously know how to turn £500 into 2 million...
I'm all ears
Better yet, don't bother, I'm not interested in feeding your troll habit anyway

 

[hungcable]

Thanks for clearing up the fact you are a f**king troll, f**k off
Why don't you explain as you obviously know how to turn £500 into 2 million...
I'm all ears
Better yet, don't bother, I'm not interested in feeding your troll habit anyway

Calm down, LV. You're showing your true colours.

Don't try to palm me off as a troll, just because I questioned your logic.

Be a man, for once in your life.

You don't have to stand up to me...you are your own worst enemy...and a hopeless trader.