Capitalism

[Splitlink]

You either don’t understand Capitalism or you don’t understand the problem with Greece. If you really understood either then there would be no way you could blame Capitalism. Do you even understand the difference between public and private debt?

If you said 'Greece' is the problem with democracy, I would agree.

If you said 'Greece' is what happens when too many people put their trust in Government, I would agree.

If you said 'Greece' is what happens when Government promises to provide its citizens more than it can afford in order to win votes, I would agree.

‘Greece’ is why the Founding fathers of the USA didn’t want a democracy and formed a Constitutional Republic. They knew the problems and dangers of a democracy and wanted to prevent the USA from turning into a ‘Greece’.

As Benjamin Franklin said:

“When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic."

This is what we are seeing in Greece, and, although many people want to hold the current USA up as a beacon of Capitalism it is a far cry from what the Founding Fathers had intended. The Government in the USA is just keeps getting bigger and bigger and taking over more and more areas of the economy in direct contradiction to The Constitution. If you don't like what you seeing in the USA right now, don't blame Capitalism for it.

Quote me where I said that I blamed Capitalism.

I don't blame the atomic bomb, either, but I fear what it is capable of doing in the wrong hands.

The problem, NT, is that the great majority of human beings will do anything when the price is right.

As for your comments on the US. All I can say is that it is you, who misunderstands human nature. The US is where the Mafia is and the Mafia's business is organised crime. Please, don't tell us that the Mafia has no interest in government.

However, I have no quarrel with the US, although they are as bad as (but no worse than), anyone else when it comes to corruption.

 

[new_trader]

Quote me where I said that I blamed Capitalism.

Ok, you didn't directly blame capitalism, but you certainly inferred it was to blame by saying:

I, as a foreigner, am indignant that Greece should not pay its debts, but capitalism is behind all this- make no mistake.

As for the rest of your post,

• I hate Socialism precisely because I understand human nature.
• I want to limit the power of Government precisely because I understand human nature.
• The Founding Fathers of the USA drafted The Constitution and came up with The Bill of Rights precisely because they understood human nature.

 

[Splitlink]

Ok, you didn't directly blame capitalism, but you certainly inferred it was to blame by saying:



As for the rest of your post,

• I hate Socialism precisely because I understand human nature.
• I want to limit the power of Government precisely because I understand human nature.
• The Founding Fathers of the USA drafted The Constitution and came up with The Bill of Rights precisely because they understood human nature.

I will side with you on your opinion of Socialism but do not think that right wing parties are any better. There is corruption all over.

As for the Founding Fathers. They thought that they understood human nature but the Italian Mafia understood it better.

 

[Splitlink]

Mafiosos and capitalism in the US? Didn't the mafia begin in Italy? Mafia is an Italian word. MA FamiglIA.

Yes, but the Americans do everything so much better!

 

[new_trader]

China is the future

I will side with you on your opinion of Socialism but do not think that right wing parties are any better. There is corruption all over.

As for the Founding Fathers. They thought that they understood human nature but the Italian Mafia understood it better.

I’m losing interest in this Split because I haven’t got the foggiest idea what point you are trying to make. Are you in some way implying that we need to find an economic system that is the most Mafia proof? What evidence do you have that that the Mafia is controlling the US congress?

Anyway...

I watched an utterly fascinating documentary about China last night. Here are some facts (from memory) but I will watch it again because I recorded it just in case I misremembered something, but you will get the gist.

• Over the last 30 years, China has grown and advanced more than any other civilization in history.
• China is building a city the size of Chicago every year.
• China has the largest high speed rail network in the world.
• China has one of the largest telescopes in the world.
• China is in the process of building a telescope that will be 50% larger than the current largest telescope in the world.
• China has the largest indoor recreational facility (with a swimming pool that generates artificial waves) in the world.
• China has one of the largest electric bus services in the world.
• The movement of people from rural areas into cities and manufacturing bases is larger than the industrial revolution of the USA and Europe combined.

Mao Zedong (Listeni/ˈmaʊ zəˈdʊŋ, dzə-/), also transliterated as Mao Tse-tung and commonly referred to as Chairman Mao (December 26, 1893 – September 9, 1976), was a Chinese Communist revolutionary and the founding father of the People's Republic of China, which he governed as Chairman of the Communist Party of China from its establishment in 1949 until his death in 1976. His Marxist-Leninist theories, military strategies and political policies are collectively known as Marxism-Leninism-Maoism or Mao Zedong Thought.

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Zedong


It isn’t surprising that all the growth has come since the death of the communist leader! Since his death China has been slowly moving away from Communism and toward Capitalism and the results so far speak for themselves. The Chinese now have a taste of Capitalism and there ain’t no way they will go back, they will leave the USA and Europe behind to die of the Socialist cancer that is slowly and surely killing them off. Go China!

They are building cities like something you would see in a futuristic science fiction movie like Blade Runner...because China is the future and the USA and Europe are the past. They had Capitalism once but gave it all away.

 

[Fugazsy]

I'm affirmd Mr hhiusa has racked up too many
infractions and earned himself a temp ban.

Nappy changing.

 

[Pat494]

The rise of China and its new system will attract many people. Will the out-of-date democracies all tumble and be replaced by a 1 party state capitalism in the future ?
I think the answer will be yes as long as China doesn't collapse. The US Constitution is showing its age and inferiority to compete globally. It is only surviving because they hate change and it's a country full of natural advantages.

 

[Atilla]

I’m losing interest in this Split because I haven’t got the foggiest idea what point you are trying to make. Are you in some way implying that we need to find an economic system that is the most Mafia proof? What evidence do you have that that the Mafia is controlling the US congress?

Anyway...

I watched an utterly fascinating documentary about China last night. Here are some facts (from memory) but I will watch it again because I recorded it just in case I misremembered something, but you will get the gist.

• Over the last 30 years, China has grown and advanced more than any other civilization in history.
• China is building a city the size of Chicago every year.
• China has the largest high speed rail network in the world.
• China has one of the largest telescopes in the world.
• China is in the process of building a telescope that will be 50% larger than the current largest telescope in the world.
• China has the largest indoor recreational facility (with a swimming pool that generates artificial waves) in the world.
• China has one of the largest electric bus services in the world.
• The movement of people from rural areas into cities and manufacturing bases is larger than the industrial revolution of the USA and Europe combined.

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Zedong


It isn’t surprising that all the growth has come since the death of the communist leader! Since his death China has been slowly moving away from Communism and toward Capitalism and the results so far speak for themselves. The Chinese now have a taste of Capitalism and there ain’t no way they will go back, they will leave the USA and Europe behind to die of the Socialist cancer that is slowly and surely killing them off. Go China!

They are building cities like something you would see in a futuristic science fiction movie like Blade Runner...because China is the future and the USA and Europe are the past. They had Capitalism once but gave it all away.

I'm shocked and stunned that you use China as an example of free capitalism.

Really?


If they choose to build a railroad, a factory or anything for that matter, the state will step in and take what it's want for the motherland and pay one what it thinks it is worth rather than market value.

Hong Kong comes close and I'm just wondering why they have had such disagreements with the motherland? Not over being Chinese but over administration, freedom and dictation of policies.


This is especially of significance as what ever you stipulate as capitalism it is about the freedom, private ownership and the indepedence of the judicial system being above politics. Whether in Russia and China there is much less than in the West imo.


My interpretation if I may put it as politely as possible; are you not confusing capitalism; private ownership of property and freedom and independence of the judicial legal framework, regulating a system which treats all it's citizens equally to not wanting to pay tax because you disagree with the democratic process and social costs because you don't consume them?

Even though externally you do but do not realise it or one can not account for it.

If the train and bank cleaners can't come to work because they have fallen ill and are on income support you'll get to ride on a train who some big swinging trader has puked all over the night before spending £10,000 on a bottle of kiss my ass.

Yep fire the little ****s and let them go and find work cleaning toilets I hear you say. That's the cleaner earning £7K pa by the way on min wage not the **** hot trader.


Either way you can take it any way you guys want. I'm just baffled how you two can go around telling everyone what true capitalism really is and then point out China as an example.


So why are they trying to bail out their stock markets now?

Are you guys aware it is almost treason to sell shares right now?

 

[Pat494]

All the systems have their disadvantages and drawbacks but you can't deny it has only taken 40 years for China to get to the top.

If they see a need for a high speed railway they build it or another runway, then they build it. None of your 20 year agonising over a 3rd runway at Heathrow or hs rail link to the north. No long hair lay abouts on the streets. Yes a bit fascist but it does get the hot air waste of time bureaucrats and politicians out of the way.

A big mistake letting people just do what they want ! Near anarchy type of shambles beloved by lawyers and Greeks etc. It should be possible to humanely make sure they do something useful imho.

 

[Atilla]

All the systems have their disadvantages and drawbacks but you can't deny it has only taken 40 years for China to get to the top.

If they see a need for a high speed railway they build it or another runway, then they build it. None of your 20 year agonising over a 3rd runway at Heathrow or hs rail link to the north. No long hair lay abouts on the streets. Yes a bit fascist but it does get the hot air waste of time bureaucrats and politicians out of the way.

A big mistake letting people just do what they want ! Near anarchy type of shambles beloved by lawyers and Greeks etc. It should be possible to humanely make sure they do something useful imho.

I'm not denying their achievements. They've been absolutely amazing and I'd like to add I never supported the student uprising in the past. Student's tend to be hair brain ideologists without much practical experience. Lying in front of a tank maybe brave but also damn stupid.

I was posing the question on the utopian vision of pure capitalism touted by others here and how it tallies up with dictatorial administration of the Chinese.

I also concur with your reference to lay abouts but long hair??? Ref.... :whistling

I also support Tories cutting council housing benefits/rent to those earning 30/40K. Let them pay market rates. I've been in a few council estates and sometimes I'm blown away by the high powered cars I see parked outside; Audi's & BMWs and 4x4s etc.

 

[new_trader]

The US Constitution is showing its age and inferiority to compete globally.

You've either never read a single word of The US Constitution, or you didn't understand what you read.

 

[new_trader]

I was posing the question on the utopian vision of pure capitalism touted by others here and how it tallies up with dictatorial administration of the Chinese.

That's because you jump to the wrong conclusions. I never said China was the utopian vision of pure Capitalism.

What is impossible to ignore about China is THE TREND. You're a trader aren't you? You understand the meaning, right?

If you looked at the progress of China in the early 1980's and took a snapshot of the current regime you would have concluded that 90% communism/10% capitalism is the perfect system.

If you looked again in 2000 you may have said that a mix of 50% communism/50% capitalism is the perfect mix.

Right now, it may be 80% capitalism /20% communism.

Whatever the case, and whatever the mix, however you measure it, the progress of China has been astounding since they abandoned the Marxist-Leninist policies of the Mao Zedong regime.

Leninism professes its final goal as the development of socialism into the full realisation of communism, a classless social system with common ownership of the means of production and with full social equality of all members of society.

How did all that equality work out for Chin under Mao Zedong?

Critics consider [Mao Zedong] a dictator who severely damaged traditional Chinese culture, perpetrated systematic human rights abuses, and who is responsible for an estimated 40 to 70 million deaths through starvation, forced labour, and executions, ranking his tenure as the top incidence of democide in human history.

There is equality for you...everyone dies equally in misery!

And there are numbskulls who think Government is good! You talk about children being forced to work in coal mines by "greedy capitalists"...how does that compare to the track record of Mao Zedong and all the other Socialist leaders of the world, past AND PRESENT!...Stalin was pretty good at murdering and torturing his own civilians and Kim Jong Un is keeping up the tradition as well.


I know China hasn't got everything right, but at least they are moving in the right direction. I have so many anecdotes, both personal and ones I hear through various other sources that has me convinced that the standard of living and the overall wealth for the average Chinese citizen is improving at an astonishing rate.

 

[Atilla]

That's because you jump to the wrong conclusions. I never said China was the utopian vision of pure Capitalism.

What is impossible to ignore about China is THE TREND. You're a trader aren't you? You understand the meaning, right?

If you looked at the progress of China in the early 1980's and took a snapshot of the current regime you would have concluded that 90% communism/10% capitalism is the perfect system.

If you looked again in 2000 you may have said that a mix of 50% communism/50% capitalism is the perfect mix.

Right now, it may be 80% capitalism /20% communism.

Whatever the case, and whatever the mix, however you measure it, the progress of China has been astounding since they abandoned the Marxist-Leninist policies of the Mao Zedong regime.



How did all that equality work out for Chin under Mao Zedong?



There is equality for you...everyone dies equally in misery!

And there are numbskulls who think Government is good! You talk about children being forced to work in coal mines by "greedy capitalists"...how does that compare to the track record of Mao Zedong and all the other Socialist leaders of the world, past AND PRESENT!...Stalin was pretty good at murdering and torturing his own civilians and Kim Jong Un is keeping up the tradition as well.


I know China hasn't got everything right, but at least they are moving in the right direction. I have so many anecdotes, both personal and ones I hear through various other sources that has me convinced that the standard of living and the overall wealth for the average Chinese citizen is improving at an astonishing rate.

Point taken about allowing switching control for the factors of production from command economy to private one. Basically, both for Russia and China this was the case where once government targets were met, producers could sell excess production above target in the free economy. Their eyes popped once they saw increase in output. Hence, here we are today.



Well perhaps you may have noticed China like the West kind of run a MIXED economy which is what we are arguing about.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the bad parts of what ever China does you'll attribute to the command aspect and the good parts to capitalism???




Would you not agree even if in part that the mixed command aspect of Chinese management facilitated their achievements?

Can you mention any two points which is anti-capitalist but that can be perceived as being positive aspects of Chinese command structure in pursuit of its economic objectives?

 

[Atilla]

I concur.



Are people saying here that they want the governing style of China in the UK? Why are we focusing upon the negatives of things so much?

I am inclined to agree with @new_trader that China has progressed more as it embraced more capitalist ideas into its governing style. The problem here comes when we mix human rights with an economic system. I also believe that the increasing nature of capitalism in China has opened its doors and exposed its people to more of the external world; thus, increasing human rights there. As China does more business with the world, for instance, Apple, all the Chinese are buying iPhones. This gives them access to what other countries are doing. External cultures cannot help invade them and change them.

I see capitalism in China as good thing for its people.

Yes agree and concur increase in output due to capitalism.

What I fail to see is how you don't see it is not exactly free, private property is not exactly private. You also comment on human rights. Government is very much hands on.

So are you saying this all happened despite this level government interference?

When you buy Ali Baba shares you do realise you don't own any bit of Ali Baba right?

Once again whilst I and I'm sure many others are open minded to accept and agree with the positive aspects of capitalism, some are still in denial about the positive advantages from social / command aspects of Chinese administration?

 

[new_trader]

What I fail to see is how you don't see it is not exactly free, private property is not exactly private. You also comment on human rights. Government is very much hands on.

So are you saying this all happened despite this level government interference?

So, let me see if I’ve got this right.

You observe that a country’s wealth and general standard of living improves for all citizens as it transitions from a 100% command economy to a 50% command economy and your conclusion is NOT “imagine how wealthy it could be if it was a completely free-market economy”.

No, your conclusion is “Looks like a 50% command economy is the best system”

Have I got that right?

 

[Atilla]

So, let me see if I’ve got this right.

You observe that a country’s wealth and general standard of living improves for all citizens as it transitions from a 100% command economy to a 50% command economy and your conclusion is NOT “imagine how wealthy it could be if it was a completely free-market economy”.

No, your conclusion is “Looks like a 50% command economy is the best system”

Have I got that right?

No you've got it wrong.

I hear where you are coming from and agree about benefits of capitalism and free markets and private ownership, but do you not see that you are quoting the amazing development of China as being outstanding but place all the credit on capitalism and non of it on let's say non-capitalism?

You are saying all benefits are due to due to capitalism and none of it to good sound administration of the Chinese government which is heavily HEAVILY involved in most affairs of corporate and banking governance. Undeniably so.

Yet you make the allegations this some how took away from the amazing development perhaps slow down and retarded what could have been even better, faster etc.


That's very rich


I've also underlined that bit about you attributing words and thoughts I have not said. I really think you hear voices inside your head.

 

[Atilla]

Yes, I am assuming you then know what a VIE is. I will assume you know where they are headquartered and it is not China. Being a VIE, they have set up a management company in the US, where Citibank has custody for the shares. In the UK, Barclays does the same thing. When you buy BABA ADR, you are buying a contract for shares, not the actual shares. Why did we diverge to Alibaba.

Yes, the government has been increasingly hands off in China. They have less and less control over what the people are exposed to now. While there is still a great deal of control in China, it is nothing compared to what it is was like in China as @new_trader said.

You miss the point. Why can't one buy shares in AliBaba on the Shanghai stock exchange? Why this elaborate arrangement?

US company has bought out my neighbours medical instrument production line right?

I can buy shares in any company I choose whether it is listed on NYSE, Deutsche Börse or in Milan.

What does that say about freedom and private ownership to you?

 

[Atilla]

If you know what a VIE is, then you know why the elaborate arrangement. You also know Alibaba is not headquartered in China. You can buy shares in Alibaba like Yahoo and Softbank did. There are real shareholders in Alibaba. The pre-IPO was in the Waldorf Astoria hotel, where you could buy shares. They invited anyone to come the day before and buy into the company. That is private ownership.

I don't follow the point in your statement about stock exchanges. Whenever you buy in the NYSE, In Germany or Italy, etc. that is headquartered in that country, you are buying ADRs. There are several companies like Alibaba. Alibaba is essentially no longer Chinese. If you know where it is headquartered, then you know the Chinese government can't touch it.

Ok that's good to know thanks.

 

[new_trader]

but do you not see that you are quoting the amazing development of China as being outstanding but place all the credit on capitalism and non of it on let's say non-capitalism?

That's right, because I apply the principle of Occam's razor. I don't expect you to understand though, so don't ask.

 

[Atilla]

Interesting article with some data...



Government's role in industry
The long arm of the state