Capitalism

Forexmospherian

Legendary member
39,928 3,299
#1
So glad to be of service :p
Hi hhiusa

Slightly off topic - but like your converted Coke advert

Serious question - for a balanced economy and environment - the fact that Capitalism and Socialism both have the faults and weaknesses - don't you think ideally 65-70% capitalism assisted with 30 -35% socialism - so all can enjoy the best of both worlds ??

One day you will get old - and you might need help and have had all your money taken away from you by the mafia or the other word for them - Banksters - and then you might need some support and assistance.

All humans are born different - we cannot all be super strong and super intelligent - and normally we all accept that the old and frail who fought in wars etc might need help from the young and strong and wealthy etc etc.

Do you pay for your own private Police Force ?

Do you build all your own roads and pay for them yourself ?

Do you have a private fire brigade to help you if your house sets on fire ??

I appreciate you might own a gun - but what value does that have when you are faced with a fire ??

All serious questions - posed by someone who is more right then central - but can see the argument on both sides of the fence

Enjoy your weekend


Regards


F
 

hhiusa

Senior member
2,647 133
#2
Hi hhiusa

Slightly off topic - but like your converted Coke advert

Serious question - for a balanced economy and environment - the fact that Capitalism and Socialism both have the faults and weaknesses - don't you think ideally 65-70% capitalism assisted with 30 -35% socialism - so all can enjoy the best of both worlds ??

One day you will get old - and you might need help and have had all your money taken away from you by the mafia or the other word for them - Banksters - and then you might need some support and assistance.

All humans are born different - we cannot all be super strong and super intelligent - and normally we all accept that the old and frail who fought in wars etc might need help from the young and strong and wealthy etc etc.
What you say is true about getting old but not about banks. This is why it is important to save your money and not get into mortgages you cannot afford. If you already know and think the banks are mafiosos, then you should take precautions for your future. Additionally, if you know you are not "super strong and super intelligent" then a fortiori you should make even more plans for your future. Do not rely on government to completely take care of you.

Do you pay for your own private Police Force ?

Do you build all your own roads and pay for them yourself ?

Do you have a private fire brigade to help you if your house sets on fire ??
Capitalism does not mean no taxes. I am for certain taxes that provides services that are beneficial to those that pay in. The tax money you pay in should be redirected towards your benefit not someone else's. To clarify, if California raises more taxe money than another state, California should not have to give them any money. If Newport Beach has better roads than Compton, it is because Newport Beach has more tax money to be matched with federal funds. Newport Beach should not have their tax money being spent in Compton. Tax money received from a city is partially redistributed to that state, more goes to the county and most of it goes back to the city for things like paving roads, paying the police and civil employees. We should not be paying pensions so huge that anyone can retire in their 50s with enough money to have several properties, nice cars and travel. Pensions should only be enough to make sure you are healthy and safe. They should be supplemental only.

I appreciate you might own a gun - but what value does that have when you are faced with a fire ??
This is not a serious question. I do not own a gun. I am not pro gun but that is an argument for another thread. Until you can provide with a logical argument as to why you think I might own a gun, I will find it to be a pointless throw away statement. I do not mudsling or call people names to get my point across. You may disagree with what I say but I can always back it up with evidence or logical deductions.

All serious questions - posed by someone who is more right then central - but can see the argument on both sides of the fence

Enjoy your weekend


Regards


F
They are not all serious questions; however, that does not matter to me. I answered the pertinent ones.
 

new_trader

Legendary member
6,174 1,254
#3
Capitalism is moral and fair.

Capitalism is defined as private ownership and control over the means of production, where the surplus product becomes a source of unearned income for its owners.


  • There are no bailouts in Capitalism.
  • There are no Central Bankers who try to guess what interest rates should be or which businesses get special treatment.
  • True Capitalism would require sound money, not Government monopolised fiat rubbish.
  • In true Capitalism, entrepreneurs go bankrupt and their resources are released and redeployed by other more competent entrepreneurs.
  • Capitalism is the most moral and fair system of all because it involves no coercion.

I'm not sure why people think Capitalism has faults and weaknesses. I suppose it's because they believe whatever the television tells them.
 
Likes: hhiusa

Forexmospherian

Legendary member
39,928 3,299
#4
Capitalism is defined as private ownership and control over the means of production, where the surplus product becomes a source of unearned income for its owners.


  • There are no bailouts in Capitalism.
  • There are no Central Bankers who try to guess what interest rates should be or which businesses get special treatment.
  • True Capitalism would require sound money, not Government monopolised fiat rubbish.
  • In true Capitalism, entrepreneurs go bankrupt and their resources are released and redeployed by other more competent entrepreneurs.
  • Capitalism is the most moral and fair system of all because it involves no coercion.

I'm not sure why people think Capitalism has faults and weaknesses. I suppose it's because they believe whatever the television tells them.


I am in my early sixty's and for over 25 yrs I was a businessman and entrepreneur - and in the early 2000's my net private worth would have been over £2 million pounds

I had since university days voted more times for the Conservatives than any other party and voted for Maggie when I thought the unions had to much power

So I would say I have been in favour of capitalism - BUT - it certainly has its down side - just like socialism

Maybe this covers some of its weaknesses - although I don't think "greed" is mentioned in there ( too much)

http://listverse.com/2012/12/27/top-10-reasons-why-capitalism-sucks/


Regards


F
 
Likes: Atilla

hhiusa

Senior member
2,647 133
#6
I am in my early sixty's and for over 25 yrs I was a businessman and entrepreneur - and in the early 2000's my net private worth would have been over £2 million pounds

I had since university days voted more times for the Conservatives than any other party and voted for Maggie when I thought the unions had to much power

So I would say I have been in favour of capitalism - BUT - it certainly has its down side - just like socialism

Maybe this covers some of its weaknesses - although I don't think "greed" is mentioned in there

http://listverse.com/2012/12/27/top-10-reasons-why-capitalism-sucks/


Regards


F
Socialism is no more greedy than capitalism. In socialism you have people who feel they are entitled to other people's wealth just by being alive and that the government should help them when it suits them and not when it doesn't. People may be greedy in capitalism, but they are not anymore so than in socialism. At least if I am a greedy capitalist, I have to work harder to satiate my avarice. Wanting wealth that is not yours is the epitome of avarice.

Socialism has the worst kind of greed - laziness and entitlement mixed with greed.

Instead of listing an article for your point, why not post your argument here in your own words or else paraphrase the article?
 

Forexmospherian

Legendary member
39,928 3,299
#7
They are the Top 10 clueless left wing liberal reasons why Capitalism sucks...is this honestly the best you've got?
The thing is n_t - I am no way left wing - as already mentioned

But is it morally right to pay kids in India a bowl of rice - or 1 dollar a day to help produce a commercial product - like trainers for example and then the mark up is 10000% + ( some of the bespoke branded individual trainers ) ??

Controlled Capitalism is acceptable - but you cannot just have a totally free capital system - with no corruption and unfairness.

Money is not GOD

The Human Beings rights and dignity and health are more important

Profit - its not a bad word - but crooks are crooks - and they should face the same penalties - whether they work in Banks or in Government or in the commercial world.

I can supply a lot more bad things about Socialism than Capitalism - but that's because I accept neither are perfect and the controllers and leaders of both wings - will no way want their ideologies watered down

Just my view


Regards


F
 
Likes: Atilla

Forexmospherian

Legendary member
39,928 3,299
#8
Socialism is no more greedy than capitalism. In socialism you have people who feel they are entitled to other people's wealth just by being alive and that the government should help them when it suits them and not when it doesn't. People may be greedy in capitalism, but they are not anymore so than in socialism. At least if I am a greedy capitalist, I have to work harder to satiate my avarice. Wanting wealth that is not yours is the epitome of avarice.

Socialism has the worst kind of greed - laziness and entitlement mixed with greed.

Instead of listing an article for your point, why not post your argument here in your own words or else paraphrase the article?

Hi hhiusa

What I find interesting is that i was like you over 30 yrs ago - before the kids and travelling the world and meeting lots of different nationalities - and spending time with both the very rich ( I worked for 3 yrs with Richard Branson at a Director level) and the very poor - 3 weeks in Gambia and another few weeks in other poor areas of Africa

I have changed - you may not think today - you ever will - but I am sure that could happen - maybe by a totally unexpected experience

Regards


F
 

hhiusa

Senior member
2,647 133
#9
Why do we get back the merits of capitalism. People keep bringing up "greedy capitalist". I have yet to hear you say anything capitalism does wrong that socialism would do better. Your prior arguments about India are irrelevant to the merits of capitalism. How India chooses to treat their citizens has nothing to do with the pitfalls of capitalism.

Hi hhiusa

What I find interesting is that i was like you over 30 yrs ago - before the kids and travelling the world and meeting lots of different nationalities - and spending time with both the very rich ( I worked for 3 yrs with Richard Branson at a Director level) and the very poor - 3 weeks in Gambia and another few weeks in other poor areas of Africa

I have changed - you may not think today - you ever will - but I am sure that could happen - maybe by a totally unexpected experience

Regards

F
What I find most interesting about you is your continuing faulty deducation about me. You state that travelling the world changed you as if I haven't travelled before. That's faulty assumption number one. How does spending time with rich people and poor people add any credence to your argument. An ad verecundiam and abusive ad hominem argument is faulty deduction number two. The fact that someone has not done the things you mentioned, would not decrease the validity of their claim. Additionally, said fallacy commits another faulty assumption that I haven't spent any time with very rich or very poor people. The statements you have provided as evidence, however laudable, are irrelevant to this debate. If you think this sounds condescending then you should read your statement below.

I have changed - you may not think today - you ever will - but I am sure that could happen - maybe by a totally unexpected experience
I find it quite condescending to say that someone's view is beneath you because you are older.
 
Likes: new_trader

Forexmospherian

Legendary member
39,928 3,299
#11
Why do we get back the merits of capitalism. People keep bringing up "greedy capitalist". I have yet to hear you say anything capitalism does wrong that socialism would do better. Your prior arguments about India are irrelevant to the merits of capitalism. How India chooses to treat their citizens has nothing to do with the pitfalls of capitalism.

Capitalism as lead to 1% of the richest people owning 50% + of the world's wealth. 85 of the richest people own the same as in total 3 billion + of the poorest people in the world. To me - that needs a change - and I don't mean the other extreme - but simply something to ensure over the next century that's more in favour of the majority than a very very small minority.

For you to discount how India treats its citizens having nothing to do with the pitfalls of capitalism is wrong - its a classic example of exploitation - its a throwback to the days of slavery - as a Capitalist myself I don't want that and I am sure many other don't

We don't just have a choice of Capitalism or Socialism - or black or white - there are other colours as other economic systems - please remember that



What I find most interesting about you is your continuing faulty deducation about me. You state that travelling the world changed you as if I haven't travelled before. That's faulty assumption number one. How does spending time with rich people and poor people add any credence to your argument. An ad verecundiam and abusive ad hominem argument is faulty deduction number two. The fact that someone has not done the things you mentioned, would not decrease the validity of their claim. Additionally, said fallacy commits another faulty assumption that I haven't spent any time with very rich or very poor people. The statements you have provided as evidence, however laudable, are irrelevant to this debate. If you think this sounds condescending then you should read your statement below.



I find it quite condescending to say that someone's view is beneath you because you are older.
Sorry - not wanting to sound condescending - experience is an important factor in any discussion or debate - and normally experience comes from time - and its no fallacy that you have told me you are a lot younger than me - but that still does not mean you cannot be clever - richer - stronger - more handsome - better than me at 95% of everything etc etc - see I am humble - a capitalist with a conscious

Have a good weekend


Regards


F
 

Forexmospherian

Legendary member
39,928 3,299
#13
All Facts -


Seven out of ten people live in countries where economic inequality has increased in the last 30 years.

The richest one percent increased their share of income in 24 out of 26 countries for which we have data between 1980 and 2012.

In the US, the wealthiest one percent captured 95 percent of post-financial crisis growth since 2009, while the bottom 90 percent became poorer.

So we all know Capitalism as its faults - but there again nothing is perfect

ie Maybe the 90% of workers in the US who have lost out since 2009 on post financial crisis growth just don't work hard enough etc etc ( lol)

Maybe they are just not as clever as the other 10% ?

In any democracy - and of course the USA is the country of democracy and freedom - then a minority should not have all the benefits the overwhelming majoity of others would truly like ?

We accept that life is not fair and always just - and why should it be many might say - but philanthropy is sometimes just a cop out - OK you are helping and giving something back to society - which is very good - but do more - try and change the world to a better place - and kick out all the wall st cr@p of the 80's that "greed is good" and Goldman Sachs are a truly great company - because they are not ;)

Back to the main thread here

As a true capitalist I now want to try and borrow $50 million over the next 20 yrs - to spend and create now businesses etc etc - and i want the main 80% repayment debt to be dated for approx 1 week after my funeral.

If anyone here can help me with this idea ( please not from Greece) just get in touch and i will give you a $50k on completion of the deal to my liking

(y)

Regards


F
 

Atilla

Legendary member
18,456 2,558
#14
Problem with both capitalism and communism is that they are the polar opposite mirror images of each other.

However, it's proponents talk of them when applied in their pure form as leading to some utopian world which doesn't exist.

The strengths of one is the weakness of the other.

That is why through time and application; the world's so called leading and successful economies use a combined mixed version of the two.
 

hhiusa

Senior member
2,647 133
#15
All Facts -


Seven out of ten people live in countries where economic inequality has increased in the last 30 years.
This is not a fault of capitalism. So what? Business is for making money. The law is for justice.

The richest one percent increased their share of income in 24 out of 26 countries for which we have data between 1980 and 2012.
This is also not a fault of capitalism. Income inequality will always exist. It sounds to me that you are more socialistic if you are worried about income inequality. The rich have more money to work with, which makes it easier to make more money. All your arguments are socialistic. You have basically stated that it is inherently bad that these people are richer than others. There is no injustice in anyone being richer than someone else. The law should be taking care of the injustices not the economic policy. The problem with many countries, including those in Africa, India, Russia, etc. is that they have terrible jurisprudence.

In the US, the wealthiest one percent captured 95 percent of post-financial crisis growth since 2009, while the bottom 90 percent became poorer.

So we all know Capitalism has its faults - but then again nothing is perfect
You still have not listed any faults with capitalism. Free entreprise will always lead to income inequality. What you have listed are the faults in these countries' legal systems.

i.e., Maybe the 90% of workers in the US who have lost out since 2009 on post financial crisis growth just don't work hard enough etc. ( lol)

Maybe they are just not as clever as the other 10%?
You even said it yourself earlier. Some people are stronger, more intelligent and more handsome or more beautiful. 95% of the population is of average intelligence anyway. The average IQ of a Caucasian person according to WAIS-IV is 105. There is a standard deviation of 15 and; thus, 95.5% of that population will be between 75 and 135. So 90% of the population will have an IQ less than 124 and 10% will have an IQ greater than 124. It does seem most likely they are more intelligent, at least in their field.





In any democracy - and of course the USA is the country of democracy and freedom - then a minority should not have all the benefits the overwhelming majoity of others would truly like?
What does this have to do with capitalism? You can argue about minority rights in another thread.
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/foyer/207038-minorities-democracy.html#post2571538

We accept that life is not fair and always just - and why should it be many might say - but philanthropy is sometimes just a cop out - OK you are helping and giving something back to society - which is very good - but do more - try and change the world to a better place - and kick out all the wall st cr@p of the 80's that "greed is good" and Goldman Sachs are a truly great company - because they are not ;)

Back to the main thread here.

As a true capitalist I now want to try and borrow $50 million over the next 20 yrs - to spend and create now businesses etc etc - and i want the main 80% repayment of the debt to be dated for approx 1 week after my funeral.

If anyone here can help me with this idea ( please not from Greece) just get in touch and i will give you a $50k on completion of the deal to my liking
We have made it to the part where you have stopped making sense and are complaining more about your own situation.

Regards, my closet socialist friend.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Similar threads