Can you be long and short at same time?

[new_trader]

I meant would you agree that you can achieve the exact same results as whatever you will achieve from this with less transaction costs.

You're deluding yourself that what you do helps, and gives you these risk-free positions and so on, and if it does help you psychologically, then perhaps it's not such a bad delusion. It's your money after all, if you want to give unnecessary amounts away to your broker, then do so.

He is trading the same instrument, on different time frames, at the same time. This is like two people trading the same instrument, on different time frames. One can go long at the same time the other is going short, so both trades are equally valid. x4x is entering each trade with a stop. I can't see anything wrong with what he is doing in this case...unless I am mistaken...

 

[x4x]

He is trading the same instrument, on different time frames, at the same time. This is like two people trading the same instrument, on different time frames. One can go long at the same time the other is going short, so both trades are equally valid. x4x is entering each trade with a stop. I can't see anything wrong with what he is doing in this case...unless I am mistaken...

I'm not really trading different time frames - I'm just trading off different support and resistances - which happen to be generated by different time frames, but I am treating each trade as a separate trade,

I don't ignore a valid short entry because I'm long, and for the life of me I can't understand why people think that's delusional. I'm managing risk, and building positions at what I believe to be key levels, I would say that is logical, not delusional.

If I take a full loss on my short, I will adjust my long stop to cover it, if I manage to close half at a price to cover the risk, I'll leave my long stop where it is - giving me the best chance of positioning myself for a decent long trade.

 

[new_trader]

I'm not really trading different time frames - I'm just trading off different support and resistances - which happen to be generated by different time frames, but I am treating each trade as a separate trade

The important distinction is: They are separate trades.

"At the same time" can be a bit ambiguous.

It can mean you open a long and short trade simultaneously

Or

You have a long and short trade running concurrently even though they were opened at a different time using different criteria.

 

[x4x]

The important distinction is: They are separate trades.

"At the same time" can be a bit ambiguous.

It can mean you open a long and short trade simultaneously

Or

You have a long and short trade running concurrently even though they were opened at a different time using different criteria.

I think the distinction is they were opened for good reason, not just randomly, but I explained that right from the beginning, but as usual, people on here get hysterical and want to turn it into a pi$$ing contest, rather than having a decent discussion on alternative ideas.

 

[x4x]

Closed out half of short trade at 128.251 making this a no risk, break even trade - this wasn't a a trade because I was frightened of risk, or because I'm frightened of losing, or even because I'm delusional - it was a valid entry off 1H resistance which sits @ 128.57.

If the price closes above the 1H R, the next target is 4H R @ 129.41. this is the area where the price might park itself - waiting for the ECB rate announcement on Thursday... but only time will tell.

 

[tar]

Closed out half of short trade at 128.251 making this a no risk, break even trade - this wasn't a a trade because I was frightened of risk, or because I'm frightened of losing, or even because I'm delusional - it was a valid entry off 1H resistance which sits @ 128.57.

If the price closes above the 1H R, the next target is 4H R @ 129.41. this is the area where the price might park itself - waiting for the ECB rate announcement on Thursday... but only time will tell.

Do you use separate stops and targets for each leg ?

 

[Lord Flasheart]

He is trading the same instrument, on different time frames, at the same time. This is like two people trading the same instrument, on different time frames. One can go long at the same time the other is going short, so both trades are equally valid. x4x is entering each trade with a stop. I can't see anything wrong with what he is doing in this case...unless I am mistaken...

I am shocked you think that, so far we have new trader,atilla and timsk actually agreeing with this guy.This is truly incredible they all been around for ages,Im struggling to cope with this,is it a wind up? got to be

 

[new_trader]

I am shocked you think that, so far we have new trader,atilla and timsk actually agreeing with this guy.This is truly incredible they all been around for ages,Im struggling to cope with this,is it a wind up? got to be

I am only agreeing on the basis that I understand what is being done and the terminology being used. Let me explain with an example.

Let’s say I currently have no trades in the market and the SPX500 is at 1593.00. I take a short @1593.00 with a stop @1595.00 with no target, I just trail my stop. The market moves down to 1585.00 and I trail my stop to 1590 so I now have 3 points locked in profit on a short trade. Now, it looks as if the market may reverse. At this point I have two choices, 1) either exit my short and go long or 2) keep my short in place and open a new long trade. Either choice will incur brokerage costs.

I decide to keep my short trade running and now open a new long trade in the same instrument. I go long @1585 with a stop@1583. I now have two concurrent trades in opposing directions on the same instrument.

The following scenarios can play out.
1) The market reverses again and continues down, my long trade is stopped out but my short trade makes up for it and the profit increases.
2) The market continues upwards and my short trade is closed out with a profit and my long trade remains open, I trail my stop to reduce risk.
3) The market whipsaws taking out my long trade for a loss, but my short trade is still open.
4) The market whipsaws taking out my long trade and then my short trade, but the short is in profit.



I think I've explained it correctly...

 

[Liquid validity]

Same instrument.
Same size.
That is flat.
An imbalance is a net aggregate directional trade
with increased spread costs.

Trade opening time or reason is irrelevant.
That is not a hedge.

A market neutral or delta neutral hedge does not
use the same instrument.
That is the core principle of hedging, arbitrage, delta neutral strangle's etc.
Correlated instruments or synthetic concoctions are always used.
For ES that would be a blend of NQ YM & ER2, or at least key stocks.
Cheaper still would be an exchange traded spread.

Same instrument.
Same size.
You are flat with additional spread costs, and also the potential of
both stops being hit.

Even if there is anything to be gained, costs will sooner
or later be a game breaker.

 

[Shakone]

The EUR/JPY is down on all time frames except Daily - I have a Daily support level at 127.00 - 127.10. The market came to that level overnight and bounced. I went long 127.445 / SL:127.28. It came up to 127.90 where I have 4H & 1H lower S/R. I closed half my position.
I had no short signal, so continue to hold my half position long.
It then comes up to 30M upper resistance @ 128.15 - a 30 minute close above this level, would get me thinking it might start reversing up in the longer term. It closed 4 points higher. I then got a sell signal, so I sold 1 position at 128.16 / SL 128.405 - it came back to 4H & 1H support - I closed half my position.

So I'm now long and short the same market, at the same value at the same time - I'm not profiting any further, but I already have profited and have NO risk on ether position. I can still jump in and out the market if I choose, or just wait until one position gets taken out for no loss and take it from there.

You may not agree, but I feel that my positional play out ways the craving for immediate profit - I can relax and go to the gym with two great positions established.

x4x, this is what you've said as I understand it:

long 127.445 / SL:127.28 (spr+comm)

closed half 127.90 (spr+comm)x0.5

shorted 1 position at 128.16 / SL 128.405 (spr+comm)

closed half of the short around 127.90 (spr+comm)x0.5

Gain: (45.5)x.5 +(26)x.5
Open positions: Long half position from 127.445
Short half postion from 128.16
Costs: 3x(spr+comm)


An alternative way

long one position 127.445 / SL:127.28 (spr+comm)

closed half 127.90 (spr+comm)x0.5

exit rest of long and shorted half position at 128.16 / SL 128.405 (spr+comm)

closed this half position short at 1.2790 (spr+comm)x0.5


Gain: (45.5)x.5+(71.5)x.5+(26)x.5
No open positions
Costs:3x(spr+comm)


So what's the difference between the two? Well in order to realise the same profit as in the 'alternative' you'd have to pay an extra (spr+comm) to close both open positions, so the alternative would be better in that case. Also, by your way you are open to a spike taking out both stops, the 'alternative' is not.

So that's two reasons why your way could be worse. Now, in what way is your way ever better than the alternative? You got to choose this example and still came out worse as far as I can see it.

 

[ducati998]

The answer to the question is yes you can. The more pertinent question is why you you would want to. Only in a pure arbitrage is the position risk free, and then it is highly unlikely that you are trading the same market: viz, buy gold in London, sell gold in Hong Kong.

Therefore unless the trade is 'risk free' there is risk...which then asks the question: what is the risk and how do you manage it?

The purest form is gamma scalping, but it is far from risk free.

jog on
duc

 

[the hare]

I am speechless !

What drugs are these people on ?

 

[cablemonster]

I am speechless !

What drugs are these people on ?

Some quality lulz at the zoo today! I used to be decisive but now I am not so sure. Best go long and short to cover all the angles

 

[Gregpearce32]

Hi thanks for all the feedback
The way my strategy works is during range bound market on usdjpy m1 timeframe i trade 50/100 pips take profit off support and resistance.
My long term trade on usdjpy on same timeframe is after large breakout, i enter on the reversal, hence being long or short at same time if i then enter a new range bound market, but my long term trade has not been stooped out
Cheers

 

[Giovan]

yes you can be short both times depending on the kind on move the market is showing. Eg. you can be long for an impulsive move and short for price correction. Either way, you have to be careful with the trade that's against the trend.

Giovan

 

[ducati998]

Hi thanks for all the feedback
The way my strategy works is during range bound market on usdjpy m1 timeframe i trade 50/100 pips take profit off support and resistance.
My long term trade on usdjpy on same timeframe is after large breakout, i enter on the reversal, hence being long or short at same time if i then enter a new range bound market, but my long term trade has not been stooped out
Cheers

The point is that this will not make profit. It is a strategy to try and prevent the loss of an already existing profit. And if all you are looking to do is provide a hedge...there are far more efficient ways of accomplishing this, without impairing your profit potential.

jog on
duc

 

[x4x]

I am shocked you think that, so far we have new trader,atilla and timsk actually agreeing with this guy.This is truly incredible they all been around for ages,Im struggling to cope with this,is it a wind up? got to be

Why are you SO bothered about people agreeing with me?

This should be an adult discussion rather than a playground fight - for god's sake man, grow up.

And you still haven't given me one logical reason why what I'm doing isn't giving me good market POSITION.

 

[x4x]

x4x, this is what you've said as I understand it:

long 127.445 / SL:127.28 (spr+comm)

closed half 127.90 (spr+comm)x0.5

shorted 1 position at 128.16 / SL 128.405 (spr+comm)

closed half of the short around 127.90 (spr+comm)x0.5

Gain: (45.5)x.5 +(26)x.5
Open positions: Long half position from 127.445
Short half postion from 128.16
Costs: 3x(spr+comm)


An alternative way

long one position 127.445 / SL:127.28 (spr+comm)

closed half 127.90 (spr+comm)x0.5

exit rest of long and shorted half position at 128.16 / SL 128.405 (spr+comm)

closed this half position short at 1.2790 (spr+comm)x0.5


Gain: (45.5)x.5+(71.5)x.5+(26)x.5
No open positions
Costs:3x(spr+comm)


So what's the difference between the two? Well in order to realise the same profit as in the 'alternative' you'd have to pay an extra (spr+comm) to close both open positions, so the alternative would be better in that case. Also, by your way you are open to a spike taking out both stops, the 'alternative' is not.

So that's two reasons why your way could be worse. Now, in what way is your way ever better than the alternative? You got to choose this example and still came out worse as far as I can see it.

Because as I keep saying, I want to hold my long off daily support because the market is in a daily up trend - and last time it bounced from daily support it went up over 1000 points - do you really want me to scalp 40 points or so off of DAILY support - that's a waste of a good set-up.

But equally I will take short trades off 1H & 4H resistance because the market is in a 1H & 4H down trend - it really isn't that complicated.

If closed either position I would have to re-establish a new position, with (perhaps) a far more vulnerable stop loss - so your costings and concerns of a market spike don't add up.

 

[Lee Shepherd]

Hi 4x4

Interesting strategy.

This may have already been covered and I have read this thread from the start but may I ask the following:

Do you place both trades (short and long) at the same time. ie, within minutes of each other?

Do you place both trades (short and long) on the same instrument?

Also, which trade do you cut out first, the one in profit or the one in loss or does this change?

Cheers,
Lee

 

[x4x]

Do you use separate stops and targets for each leg ?

I use separate stops, targets are currently open - but I will ultimately sacrifice one of my trades because the trends are mixed, and I'm waiting for further confirmation - which will only be obtained when I get an hourly close above resistance followed by a 4H close above resistance - or the 1H/4H trends win out, and my long position gets stopped out.

After overnight costs I'm currently +/-93 points in profit - my stops are 138.5 points apart - and I'm quite happy being flat, with good market position and profit, until I deem it better to close one, or both trades. I know I'll have to pay overnight costs, but that's the equivalent to around 5 points per night, which doesn't worry me.

This week might be a tricky one due to the ECB rate decision - so I will have to assess the situation prior to that.