Can you be long and short at same time?

[neil]

Yes, it's moved up and down - the average 5 day range of EJ is 156 points - probably best not to apply this to something stuck in an 80 point range.

I 'm fully aware that whilst I'm long and short there is no profit advantage - but I'm still waiting to learn from you what the disadvantage is.....

But you are not trading with the aid of a crystal ball hence your rhetoric is based upon hindsight

 

[tar]

Yes, it's moved up and down - the average 5 day range of EJ is 156 points - probably best not to apply this to something stuck in an 80 point range.

I 'm fully aware that whilst I'm long and short there is no profit advantage - but I'm still waiting to learn from you what the disadvantage is.....

Double the costs just to be flat when others pay much less to be in your place , that's a big disadvantage , basically you've made double the trades with less profit , so in reality you're daytrading EJ with a 6 pips spread instead of 3 , don't underestimate costs as i said earlier daytrading itself is questionable because of costs and fees how about paying the double for just to be flat . Yes every business has costs to consider but who said that these costs aren't the reason behind the losses and the failure of many businesses ?

 

[x4x]

But you are not trading with the aid of a crystal ball hence your rhetoric is based upon hindsight

This gets worse....what on earth are you on about.

 

[Lord Flasheart]

This gets worse....what on earth are you on about.

what hes saying is that you are saying what you did. please could you use the trade and example to demonstrate a trade that might happen and you will clearly see what we are saying,thanks

 

[x4x]

1) You have paid 2 x the spread
2) you could suffer a big loss due to spike. if you only had 1 position the chance is 50%,as you have 2 positions the chance of being caught is 100% on a spike.
3) You are not picking any clear entrypoint
4) Its pointless

surely thats enough for point proven

LOL, I've paid the spread on two trades - a total of 4.3 points - I have covered that with the 63 points open profit.

My two entries are approx 63 points apart - so there is not 100% of getting caught - that's a ridiculous thing to say, but if the market spikes I will hope to get out of at least one position - if I don't, and the market gaps I suffer a loss - so what?

I can assure you that both entries were valid according to my system - now you're clutching at straws.

It's only pointless because you have your mind closed to it - you really should try opening your mind, you might enjoy it.

Anyway - I think we've come to a stalemate here, and it's getting boring now - thanks for trying to help me, but I'll pass on your advice this time, thanks.

 

[tar]

LOL, I've paid the spread on two trades - a total of 4.3 points - I have covered that with the 63 points open profit.

BTW x4x that's a wrong calculation , you should compare spreads and costs to average profit/trade .

 

[wackypete2]

This entire thread is amusing.

Peter

 

[new_trader]

It cant,read what I have written if you are 1 long and one short,your trade only begins when you take of one position. Come on Tim and Atilla you keep repping a guy you should not be repping because I beleive it is not helping him or anyone doing this type of thing,lets hear your take on how that hyperthetical trade of mine can be used to work.

The repping system is so often abused as a way of making snide remarks, so I wouldn't use it to interpret what their opinion is...that is especially the case for one of the names you mentioned...he's repping all over the place such that it is impossible to derive anything coherent from it...just like their posts

 

[x4x]

Double the costs just to be flat when others pay much less to be in your place , that's a big disadvantage , basically you've made double the trades with less profit , so in reality you're daytrading EJ with a 6 pips spread instead of 3 , don't underestimate costs as i said earlier daytrading itself is questionable because of costs and fees how about paying the double for just to be flat . Yes every business has costs to consider but who said that these costs aren't the reason behind the losses and the failure of many businesses ?

So here's a good question, which should I ignore:

The Daily Trend (up)

or

The 30M, 1H, & 4H Trends (down)

Because I really don't know the answer - that's why I'm positioned with no risk, to TRY and see which wins out.

So far the market can't close above 30M resistance and has stayed at 1H/4H S/R (127.90) for 6 hours.

 

[new_trader]

So here's a good question, which should I ignore:

The Daily Trend (up)

or

The 30M, 1H, & 4H Trends (down)

Because I really don't know the answer - that's why I'm positioned with no risk, to TRY and see which wins out.

So far the market can't close above 30M resistance and has stayed at 1H/4H S/R (127.90) for 6 hours.

Is this the same as asking:

The market is ranging within a 3 point range. I'm not sure if it will breakout or breakdown so I will remain flat until the market shows its hand? That way I have no risk until I'm sure.

 

[x4x]

Is this the same as asking:

The market is ranging within a 3 point range. I'm not sure if it will breakout or breakdown so I will remain flat until the market shows its hand? That way I have no risk until I'm sure.

Exactly - that's where I'm at, no risk and FLAT - at last, someone gets it!

 

[wackypete2]

Exactly - that's where I'm at, no risk and FLAT - at last, someone gets it!

With double the spread cost?
I'm no risk and flat with no cost.

Peter

 

[graydrake]

It cant,read what I have written if you are 1 long and one short,your trade only begins when you take of one position. Come on Tim and Atilla you keep repping a guy you should not be repping because I beleive it is not helping him or anyone doing this type of thing,lets hear your take on how that hyperthetical trade of mine can be used to work.

Flash, your example is accurate, for the positions you chose. However, I can not see any trader going short and long at the same strike. Selecting different strikes is an entirely different scenario.

Hedging with shorts, gives you the advantage of making money on the short, even when the market moves against you less than the degree of your short. Therefore, if you feel the market will never move down across your short, and is likely to go up, both the long and the short become profitable.

Drake

 

[x4x]

With double the spread cost?
I'm no risk and flat with no cost.

Peter

But I'm flat with profit - from 127.505 - no risk, and the spread cost was covered on my short - I know where I would rather be.

Why's everyone so worried about spread cost - gee, get over it, if your worried about spread cost, don't trade. If entries are sound, spread will soon be covered, if the trade loses, it loses, that's what MM is for.

 

[Shakone]

But I'm flat with profit - from 127.505 - no risk, and the spread cost was covered on my short - I know where I would rather be.

Why's everyone so worried about spread cost - gee, get over it, if your worried about spread cost, don't trade. If entries are sound, spread will soon be covered, if the trade loses, it loses, that's what MM is for.

x4x, putting aside for one second that the trades made a profit and ended up covering your costs, do you agree that your way of doing it increases the transaction costs for the very same amount of profit?

 

[Splitlink]

Exactly - that's where I'm at, no risk and FLAT - at last, someone gets it!

Well, I get what you are talking about, which is why I disagree with it.

Whichever way you go, you will remain flat until you close a trade, and that may be the wrong one, so you may as well have waited, in the first place.

Some posters have mentioned trading and hedging with an option. It must be 15 years since I traded options, so have forgotten a lot, but that could be a way to go.

If I do want to trade long, or short, I use an OCO, but I see no no profit in trading both at the same time.

 

[x4x]

x4x, putting aside for one second that the trades made a profit and ended up covering your costs, do you agree that your way of doing it increases the transaction costs for the very same amount of profit?

Of course I have to agree that two trades cost more than one, but I can't be worrying about a 1.8 - 2.5 spread cost to the benefit of gaining a good, no risk position. If I didn't take the short off 30R, I wouldn't have been doing my job properly, I can't ignore entries based on paying spread, or because I'm already holding a long position, to me it's immaterial.

Of course that trade could have cost me a full 25 points, and it often does, but it can always do that, regardless of whether I'm holding an opposite position or not.

Lets say I closed my short at 30R, then went short - I would have closed a (possible) good long position and lost my 30R short trade as well. The main thing for me is that I have a good long position, that has no risk, and is well out the way.

The market has finally closed above 30R, I'm now just long, but I will be looking at 1H resistance at 128.57. If I get a signal from there to go short, I will repeat the process - again, I'm just doing my job, I'm not trying to cover risk (I've already done that) I'm just taking a sell signal at a valid level, based on my analysis.

Blimey, just hit 1H as I'm typing.

 

[x4x]

Well, I get what you are talking about, which is why I disagree with it.

Whichever way you go, you will remain flat until you close a trade, and that may be the wrong one, so you may as well have waited, in the first place.

Some posters have mentioned trading and hedging with an option. It must be 15 years since I traded options, so have forgotten a lot, but that could be a way to go.

If I do want to trade long, or short, I use an OCO, but I see no no profit in trading both at the same time.

Yeah, I get that, but for it to stop me out (which it did) it gives me some confirmation that the Daily support bounce was a good one. At the point that it stopped me out, the market is a bit over extended, then I've got to try to establish a good entry point.

I'm now in the same situation with 1H resistance - do I ignore it and hope that it will give way - I could, I can see EU going through its 4H resistance and I can see indices are all up, but then I would be doing what I think rather than what I should be doing, which is trading off 1H resistance - if an entry is signaled.

I'm disregarding the fact that I'm already long, that trade has already made me a bit of profit and has no risk.

I have just got entry - I'm now short 128.465 - SL @ 128.665.

 

[Shakone]

Of course I have to agree that two trades cost more than one, but I can't be worrying about a 1.8 - 2.5 spread cost to the benefit of gaining a good, no risk position. If I didn't take the short off 30R, I wouldn't have been doing my job properly, I can't ignore entries based on paying spread, or because I'm already holding a long position, to me it's immaterial.

Of course that trade could have cost me a full 25 points, and it often does, but it can always do that, regardless of whether I'm holding an opposite position or not.

Lets say I closed my short at 30R, then went short - I would have closed a (possible) good long position and lost my 30R short trade as well. The main thing for me is that I have a good long position, that has no risk, and is well out the way.

The market has finally closed above 30R, I'm now just long, but I will be looking at 1H resistance at 128.57. If I get a signal from there to go short, I will repeat the process - again, I'm just doing my job, I'm not trying to cover risk (I've already done that) I'm just taking a sell signal at a valid level, based on my analysis.

Blimey, just hit 1H as I'm typing.

I meant would you agree that you can achieve the exact same results as whatever you will achieve from this with less transaction costs.

You're deluding yourself that what you do helps, and gives you these risk-free positions and so on, and if it does help you psychologically, then perhaps it's not such a bad delusion. It's your money after all, if you want to give unnecessary amounts away to your broker, then do so.

 

[wackypete2]

I meant would you agree that you can achieve the exact same results as whatever you will achieve from this with less transaction costs.

You're deluding yourself that what you do helps, and gives you these risk-free positions and so on, and if it does help you psychologically, then perhaps it's not such a bad delusion. It's your money after all, if you want to give unnecessary amounts away to your broker, then do so.

That's the only fair point on his side, IMO.

Peter