'Big Traders' = Irrelevant ?

[mma]

* so seriously, having access after hours is not gonna help if you are watching TV or sleeping *

What you sleep after the dax / ftse closes ? bit early isn't it .


* and if you want to trade round the clock - you can trade US stuff *

No , circular argument now , said first off that I don't do US stuff , thus obviously will not trade round the clock - silly thing to do.


* the amount lost closing out positions which went wrong before you can establish a position that might make those 100 all adds up to a real dificult way to trade *

Circular again , been established that many do make tye 100 pointers w/o the numerous little losses . making = a profit = a revenue over and above losing trades .

* they need to ween themselves on spreadbetting and maybe start taking the pain of futures in order to move their learning on*

NO , to each his own , why dictate , why do you care so much what people trade ?

 

[Sharky]

Can I remind everyone to keep discussions on topic, and to avoid personal insults. I've now edited this thread to remove the reported posts.

 

[redart]

Hi. at the moment i use deal4free but hope to move to a direct access broker if i manage to get my account up to a couple of grand (enough to open a direct access a/c?) I only play small stakes though, like 1 pound per point. Can i trade them kind of equivilent stakes with a Direct access broker? I mainly trade the US30.

 

[Trader333]

When you say you trade the US30 do you mean the stocks that make up the US30 or the index future ?


Paul

 

[redart]

sorry, the index future. the symbol is called 'US30' with D4F.

 

[Trader333]

The minmum you can trade the Dow index future per point is $5 (approx £3) and all increments are in $5 amounts. So if you want to trade more than $5 per point you would have to do $10 per point then $15 etc. The most popular broker that I am aware of is IB and the symbol traded is called "YM" which is the Dow mini future.

I hope this helps



Paul

 

[mma]

* The dow for example needs only about £800 odd margin intra-day (double out-of-hours) and with an account minimum of £1400 you could lose £600 on your first trades (ouch!) and still be in the game. *

So what ? repeat conversation ! most here = small traders , - have more to learn from other small traders that make 4x their cap., rather than a BSD wannabe that gets maybe 20 % !

whether they use SB or brokers -obvious though may hurt some to admit .

 

[neil]

The minmum you can trade the Dow index future per point is $5 (approx £3) and all increments are in $5 amounts. So if you want to trade more than $5 per point you would have to do $10 per point then $15 etc. The most popular broker that I am aware of is IB and the symbol traded is called "YM" which is the Dow mini future.

I hope this helps



Paul

Paul
I agree, and once the person had used a direct broker he/she will not return to gambling with spread bets intra-day.

 

[peto]

mma
Iwas simply replying to your assertion (in a post which conveniently has been removed) that the main markets were "out of reach" to small players.

This may put off some from researching direct brokers, which might have helped them achieve their goals.

I did not respond to anything you might have said re. who there is most to learn from

 

[mma]

* This may put off some from researching direct brokers, which might have helped them achieve their goals.
I did not respond to anything you might have said re. who there is most to learn from *

sounds like you have * guru syndrome * - you're entitled to your view , but why not let others make up their own minds

the thread was removed because another poster was being irrelevant and uneccessarily personal .

the WHOLE point is who we here can learn from most and that is the small highly successful trader NOT the BSD with 15/20% - WHATEVER middleman he uses.

You are being circular now . go away think about it before post .

 

[mma]

* I agree, and once the person had used a direct broker he/she will not return to gambling with spread bets intra-day. *

If you think that gambling is restricted to SBs then you are naive , millions use brokers to gamble.
There are tons who * trade * with brokers whilst really gambling and at same time using casinos, race horses etc . Same purpose different label - so what ?

 

[neil]

Peto
I cannot read mma's replies to you since I have him on "IGNORE"

But you are right about Direct Access above, and many more people agree with you.

 

[Gary777]

MMA

If we should only listen to 'small traders' who make '4x their cap' then at that growth rate they will quickly become big traders - correct? At which point we should stop listening to them?

If someone is making that sort of return from skillful trading then that is indeed of interest, if it's basically through being lucky over a short period, then there's nothing to learn from them.

I think the best people to learn from are those who are consistently successful regardless of their bankroll. Wouldn't you agree?

And if you think the tax advantages of spread betting make it better than direct dealing you should realise that the Inland Revenue might still want their cut if you are spread betting as your main source of income. In the end they make the rules regarding tax, not the spreadbetting companies.

 

[darktone]

stevet

I realise that that you are obviously a respected trader here but there are a couple of points i've a problem with.

anyone who holds trades overnight is a gambler, not a trader

1,Surely anyone who trades is a gambler unless they do so in an arbitrage or brokering capacity.

2, I trade "gamble" over days/weeks in FX and US indices, i also use SBs. I accepted long ago that i couldn't make it as a day trader for 2 main reasons.

i) I don't have the emotional strength/hardness.
ii) I hate screen watching.

I accept: that holding individual issues overnight especially short on margin can present huge risk which is why i trade FX and indices.
Daytrading with SB is also very tuff due to spread and bias.

Surely successful trading centres around risk/reward and good money management.

BUT the world has changed big time, news is priced in real quick, and everyone and his brother got hold of the long term trading concept

Markets still trend. so while they do id rather be out with friends/doing trackdays etc than be stuck in screen watching.

if you hold a position overnight - you are not in control of the result of the trade, and if you are not in control, you are gambling

This doesn't make sense to me either. If E/$ resistance is at 1.1860 and support at 1.1550 . I have limit orders to sell at 1.1840 with a stop at 1.1870. How am i not in control of that trade? if it reached those levels i would sell, if we break that level i would close. Risk/reward comes in at nearly 10/1, most daytraders ive spoke to are happy with 2/1 - 5/1.

There are more points but ive been sat at this screen far long typing this out

This isn't attack just MHO.

Regards
DT

 

[mma]

Gary ,

time frame already established as at least a couple of years .

Regardless of bankroll : yes to a degree but as said before , most here are small traders and thus the corollary to big time winning small traders is undenialble .

when ST's attain a big ( and this size has to be BIG not just 2/3 piddly intra lots ) bank roll and swtich to brokers then it may be different but that is a years away .

So walk before you run.

I'd rather keep my winnings til IR does something about it rather than pay 1000's upfront - noway .

 

[mma]

* But you are right about Direct Access above, and many more people agree with you *

Not about DA vs. SB , you are irrelevant again ! silly .

 

[Kilnside]

Neil

Just because you have someone on "ignore" doesn't mean you can't read his/her posts when you choose does it?

Regards

 

[neil]

Darktone,
The comment on currency is a good point to make:

I use a stop always, and sometimes a limit to hit a profit target, thus going some way to containing risk.

 

[darrenf]

Darktone

I too agree with some of your comments/ questions to Stevet.

I hold positions for usually 1 to 10 days, almost purely in fx markets and I use SB's with CMC. (for the record, I am also a "small time" trader)

Re:

quote:
anyone who holds trades overnight is a gambler, not a trader

I think the key to this and other similar issues is the time frame you trade. Clearly if you are only holding a position for minutes, and looking to make say 20 points, then your position size will be quite large, your stop may be only 5 points and there would be a huge risk to holding that kind of positon overnight, particularly in stocks/ indices where the market closes.

However, if your stop is say 80 points and you are looking for 250 points as a target profit, over a few days (and in particular if you are trading fx which is open 24 hrs), then holding a position overnight represents far less risk. In fact no more risk than the short term trader holding a position for a few minutes/ hours.

It could be argued that very short term trading is higher risk due to unexpected spikes that can occur which can take a short term trader out well beyond their intended stop. In a longer term trade, this would just appear as "noise."

Also:-

Quote from Stevet

and re the small extra spead - basically you have to be twice as successful trading spreadbetting to overcome that little extra spread as you do trading futures, and that is a big number

Again, a time frame issue in my opinion.

If you are looking for 20 points profit and you have a 2 point futures spread v a 5 point SB spread, then clearly you have to work much harder to get a profit out of SB's as the spread eats up a significant proprtion of capital.

However, if you are looking for 100 or 200+ points, the difference in spread will have only a very slight effect on profits. You certainly don't need to be twice as successful IMO.

Stevet, I would be interested to hear from you on this subject as your statements whilst true for short term trading seem to completely ignore the fact that a longer term trader has any kind of credibility in calling themselves a "trader"?

Cheers

Darren

 

[stevet]

darrenf

a couple of points to think about and that relate to my earlier comment and may help you to understand the basis of my comments

the period of time of a trade is not directly related to the profit potential - if a market is range bound for days etc - repeated intra day trades in one day may offer far far greater profit potential than one longer term trade - it does not mean it would - but i am just trying to say that there is no relation between profit expectancy and time period of the trade

you have to decide if your trading is meant to provide you with your only income, or if you see any trading proft as a bonus to your normal income of your nest egg

if it is meant to be your only income, is longer term trading going to provide you with enough profit potential to support a good lifestyle ?

stops are not a safety level that means if your stop does or does not get hit - that you traded safely and with skill

you have to figure that on every trade you take, that your stop will not get hit, so setting a stop prior to the trade is ignoring the fact that the market changes by the second

if you feel that you need to set a stop, you should not take the trade, since the market should move your way the moment you take a trade, and you should exit a trade when the market has not done as you anticipate - and that might be just that is does nothing -

you should exit a trade when it is not responding correctly in the way your analysis indicated before you took the trade - and thereby you are being reactive to the market - setting a prior stop and sitting back is passive and is not a safe way to trade

tradng longer term may feel more easy or more comfortable or less dangerous - but in reality - you are just kinda reducing the number of your trades you make, so that you feel with a wide stop that you are doing the right thing, but in effect you are not learing how to make a profit as you are not trading enough to learn, you are learning how to accrue losses safely!

and although it may appear losses accrue more slowly, the fact is that it is real difficult to make those or any losses back - hence in intra-day trading - you know you must make money each and everyday - and you also have the chance to

there are a million other points on this - but I need to do a bit of work myself now