belflan's fun day mentals

belflan

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been putting this one off for some reason,

will try on this thread to gain an understanding of stock picking from fundamentals

and then implement a strat bases on stock fundamentals

first things first i need to gain an understanding of what each of the boxes means on the attached screener (posted on another TT thread.) and what impact these figures have /if any/ on the future price of the stock



beflan
 

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Asset valuation material

been putting this one off for some reason,

will try on this thread to gain an understanding of stock picking from fundamentals

and then implement a strat bases on stock fundamentals

first things first i need to gain an understanding of what each of the boxes means on the attached screener (posted on another TT thread.) and what impact these figures have /if any/ on the future price of the stock



beflan

OK - for an absolute wealth of material try the following links. Damodaran has written several books on asset valuation. The first link has tons of material:

Damodaran Online: Home Page for Aswath Damodaran

Much of it is academic and goest into great detail, but as a starter click on the seminar material link and open up the powerpoint for:

Milan - Investment Philosophies
or for - Boston Valuation Seminar (1 day)

These give some nice overviews

There are various approaches to valuation, but the approach he describes as "Relative valuation" compared to the rest of the market seems relevant. Also aspects of option pricing. You will find that many of the presentation material offerings cover the same stuff.

In addition there are links to further webinars and material at

Equity Class Webcasts - Spring 2008

The difficulty is extracting those bits that are useful without getting into too much academic detail

Charlton
 
1st column of screener

ok, so the 1st column within the fundamental screener.

Exchange = simple enough

Market Cap. = number of shares of the company x the price of the share at present, figure must be very important (i.e. is the current market cap of a company much higher/lower that the value* of the company)
*subjective based on the valuation model your using?

P/B = I've no idea what this means???????????????????

Dividend Yield = how much (as a %) the company gives to its shareholders in dividend (how the company shares out the money it makes to its shareholders) my understanding is that a dividend is expected with larger well established companies, growth type companies may not give a dividend to shareholders as they want to put the money to better use i.e. growth

Short = I take it this is what % of the total shares have being shorted (if this is high, bearish, I'm sure it's not a simple as this)

Average Volume = simple enough
 
ok, so the 1st column within the fundamental screener.

Exchange = simple enough

Market Cap. = number of shares of the company x the price of the share at present, figure must be very important (i.e. is the current market cap of a company much higher/lower that the value* of the company)
*subjective based on the valuation model your using?

P/B = I've no idea what this means???????????????????

Dividend Yield = how much (as a %) the company gives to its shareholders in dividend (how the company shares out the money it makes to its shareholders) my understanding is that a dividend is expected with larger well established companies, growth type companies may not give a dividend to shareholders as they want to put the money to better use i.e. growth

Short = I take it this is what % of the total shares have being shorted (if this is high, bearish, I'm sure it's not a simple as this)

Average Volume = simple enough
P/B is the price to book ratio - used to compare a stock's market value to its book value, It is calculated by dividing the current closing price of the stock by the latest quarter's book value by share.

HINT - if you hover your cursor over the heading of the item it opens up the help description :)

Charlton
 
P/B is the price to book ratio - used to compare a stock's market value to its book value, It is calculated by dividing the current closing price of the stock by the latest quarter's book value by share.

HINT - if you hover your cursor over the heading of the item it opens up the help description :)


lol..nice one

raises to good questions, 1./how silly i'm i:eek: and 2./what's book value?


thanks for the pointer:)
 
lol..nice one

raises to good questions, 1./how silly i'm i:eek: and 2./what's book value?


thanks for the pointer:)
Book value is based on an accounting definition. You will find lots about this in the links I gave you. Let's take a simple example. I build a house paying for bricks and labour, which costs me say £200k. The government announces that a new motorway is to be built 100 yards away and at the same time the mortgage companies announce a clamp-down on mortgage offers and interest rates go up. The market value of my house goes down to £100k, but the book value is still £200k. Suddenly the motorway is scrapped and the government announces a wonderful new scheme that will solve the credit crisis, and the market value of my house goes up overnight to £300k, but the book value remains as is.

Thus the P/B ratio is a measure of the worth of the company in terms of the stock market compared to the net assets and liabilities that you would get if you were selling them off. It's a measure of confidence in the future earning potential of the company and it's intangible assets such as directors' reputations, R&D, latest trends in the market etc

Think particularly of the dotcom era and the difference between the physical assets of the company and the market value.

Charlton
 
Book value is based on an accounting definition. You will find lots about this in the links I gave you. Let's take a simple example. I build a house paying for bricks and labour, which costs me say £200k. The government announces that a new motorway is to be built 100 yards away and at the same time the mortgage companies announce a clamp-down on mortgage offers and interest rates go up. The market value of my house goes down to £100k, but the book value is still £200k. Suddenly the motorway is scrapped and the government announces a wonderful new scheme that will solve the credit crisis, and the market value of my house goes up overnight to £300k, but the book value remains as is.

Thus the P/B ratio is a measure of the worth of the company in terms of the stock market compared to the net assets and liabilities that you would get if you were selling them off. It's a measure of confidence in the future earning potential of the company and it's intangible assets such as directors' reputations, R&D, latest trends in the market etc

Think particularly of the dotcom era and the difference between the physical assets of the company and the market value.

Charlton

can't add to your rep

thanks for this very simple and very clear

belflan
 
so sticking with Book value only

the attached stocks are trading at less than book value (less than the bricks and labour to build them)

long term buys?

can you trust what there book value is?

does a companies book value ever get re-valued? (i think this may have happened recently with financials)

If book value can be re-valued, of what value is it?


belflan
 

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so sticking with Book value only

the attached stocks are trading at less than book value (less than the bricks and labour to build them)

long term buys?

can you trust what there book value is?

does a companies book value ever get re-valued? (i think this may have happened recently with financials)

If book value can be re-valued, of what value is it?


belflan
Belflan

Although you might want to check this with the company producing the screener, I would expect (certainly from their definition) that the book value is that published for their last quarterly return. In theory these should be reliable as they are audited before going to the public domain, but as we all know directors and auditors can and do make "mistakes". The book value will be determined on agreed accounting principles upon the way that each asset and liability should be calculated, but there is always a subjective element, which is often the cause of dispute between directors and auditors. The subjective element relates to those items that are difficult to determine in black and white. For example, in an insurance company you have to create a reserve to cover the cost of potential claims. This is an actuarial job and is not precise, thus the balance sheet is not 100% certain.

The revaluation of book value will take place publicly at each publication of the accounts. It will always be in a constant state of flux, because each dollar of net profit made adds to the book value and each dollar of net loss made detracts from the book value.

In between the quarterly results the book value will be changing, perhaps significantly. If this happens then I would expect the P/B ratio to alter, because the market price should reflect changes in the underlying book value, because news of significant changes to book value are bound to leak out.

Charlton
 
I'm not suggesting that book value could/should be traded/invested of alone, But what weight should be put against it in an over all FA screen?

How often does a company trading below book value recover its price to be trading at or above book value?

Is buying a company trading below book value bottom fishing?

do companies trading below book value often become takeover targets?

How often does a company trading well above book value (how is 'well above' book value defined x2 x3 ..x20?) return its trading price to more reasonable levels?(a sort of a overbought situation based on FA not TA.

where can you get these sort of statistics?(If anywhere?)

Maybe it would be best to monitor this sort of thing over a long period of time

'beflan's FA book value thread'? maybe?

all input suggestions welcome

belflan
 
In between the quarterly results the book value will be changing, perhaps significantly. If this happens then I would expect the P/B ratio to alter, because the market price should reflect changes in the underlying book value, because news of significant changes to book value are bound to leak out.

Charlton

hmm, having thought about this some more, if a company is trading below book value is this not because smarter people that me are looking in detail at the FA of the company and are selling it down to those levels. Is FA already in the price?

belflan
 
hmm, having thought about this some more, if a company is trading below book value is this not because smarter people that me are looking in detail at the FA of the company and are selling it down to those levels. Is FA already in the price?

belflan
Belflan

Starting with the book value - although it is governed by regulatory rules that define how items should be treated for accounting purposes it is not an exact science. Take a look at the following link which shows the balance sheet for Yahoo

Financial Statements for Yahoo! Inc. - Google Finance

There is a range of subjectivity in the breakdown of the book value of this company. Figures such as the cash & equivalents have a low level of subjectivity - it's basically what the bank statements say. "Accounts receivable - trade net" has more subjectivity. This represents the amount owing to the company from customers who have not yet paid their invoices. This will include an evaluation of bad debt write-off from customers who might not pay, so it contains more of a subjective element. "Goodwill - net" is more subjective still - it represents that element of the business that makes it more than just the (to use an earlier analogy) bricks and mortar. It represents brand loyalty and awareness for example. Thus the book value itself is not precise, but it has adhered to strict accounting guidelines and will have been audited.

The book price will of course form a basis upon which the market price is based, but the market price will bring into play other factors that have not been or cannot be (for accounting reasons) included in the book price. The market price depends upon the market's perception of the company and what it is worth to the shareholder as a dividend stream and/or capital growth potential.

This will include factors such as whether directors are buying/selling company shares, profit warnings, news about new research/potential orders, directors resignations/appointments, potential legal action, takeover bids and a whole host of other factors. So fundamental analysis goes beyond looking at just what is reflected in the books.

The market price will also reflect the general mood of the market. If the market as a whole is a bull market then market price may increase even though the book value remains static (and in fact even if the specific fundamentals of the company remain static).

If you look at the links from Damoradan that I posted recently you will see that asset valuation is not precise and there are many ways to value a company or its shares. There is no single correct answer as Damoradan takes pains to point out.

Eventually, in any timeframe, discrepancies in value i.e. overbought and oversold situations should resolve themselves and the cycle will reverse. This is in my view the underlying concept behind Grey1's strategy for both long term swings (with bias on FA evaluation of OB/OS) and short term intraday (with bias on TA evaluation of OB/OS)

Charlton
 
This will include factors such as whether directors are buying/selling company shares, profit warnings, news about new research/potential orders, directors resignations/appointments, potential legal action, takeover bids and a whole host of other factors. So fundamental analysis goes beyond looking at just what is reflected in the books.

I have studied accounts resently at a basic/intermidate level so I can understand (at a basic level anyway) how these figures come into existance.. i just wonder if book value in itself is worth screening for at all (for finding tradable operturnities), or maybe its a screen that would keep you out of a bad trade rather than put good in a good trade.. hmm.

directors dealings now there's something.. people put their money were the mouth is.. (I think I'll come to this later on in this thread)

The market price will also reflect the general mood of the market. If the market as a whole is a bull market then market price may increase even though the book value remains static (and in fact even if the specific fundamentals of the company remain static).

yes, I guess this is why G1 emphasises market direction above all else

Eventually, in any timeframe, discrepancies in value i.e. overbought and oversold situations should resolve themselves and the cycle will reverse. This is in my view the underlying concept behind Grey1's strategy for both long term swings (with bias on FA evaluation of OB/OS) and short term intraday (with bias on TA evaluation of OB/OS)

I think I'll have a look a the book values of G1's weak and strong lists (out of interest only as I don't think he uses book value much)

many many thanks for your help Charlton ..:)

belflan
 
Grey1's strong list sorted by book value

(out of interest only)

will post weak list later
 

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Grey1s weak list sorted by book value

(it should be noted that many of these weak list stocks have fallen sharply in price resently)
 

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Grey1's strong list sorted by book value

(out of interest only)

will post weak list later

Grey1 has recently open a long portfolio, therefor it is probably more relevant to look a the strong stocks.

almost all of the strong list stocks have a book value = 1 or greater most are 2 and above.

I think is safe to say Grey1 is not looking to pick stocks that are under valued by the market (in terms of price to book value anyway..)

belflan
 
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ok, I now have a basic understanding of book value (many thanks to Charlton) (I will build on this as i go)

so, on to short selling.

if there is a large short holding in a company will the share price go down? (sounds to easy that.)

is the short holding just a large hedge by a hedge fund who are not that concerned if the share rise as long as the other side of the hedge rises futher/faster?

are the shorters just wrong?

are the shorters right but they entered 6months ago and are just about to exit?

do we know or can we find out who holds the shorts? can we find out when the short postions were entered into?

what do we gain (if anything) by knowing the % shares shorted?

belflan
 
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