Egan worked for the company that sold them the wine. Are you starting to get the picture?
Egan worked for the company that sold them the wine. Are you starting to get the picture?
Yes, I have received multiple, substantial deliveries of purchases from CellarLink UK. All were delivered from LCB Glasgow and all bore "Imported by Australian Portfolio Wines (UK) Ltd" stickers on each bottle, even in seemingly winery sealed cases. The wines were unquestionably genuine, and were exactly as advertised and invoiced; they showed no signs of poor storage or transit throughout their lives.
To clarify why I talk about "LCB Glasgow", given LCB stands for "London City Bond"; basically LCB expanded a lot in the last 20 years and now have 5+ major warehouses around the UK, in addition to their two London based ones (in Barking and Tilbury). So these wines do appear to be stored at LCB's Glasgow warehouse.
From reading this thread I'm obviously slightly uncomfortable in my position as a customer of CellarLink, but clearly a lot of people want just that - someone to buy their wine. I've offered some suggestions for how people can segregate and dispose of their wine in the open market and clarified this question of "tax" which seems to have been throw around a lot a vague and terrible thing, which I feel it need not be. I stand by my offer to consider buying, without tax, wine held at LCB Glasgow which was purchased from APW.
My email is the [first initial of my last name]@[my first name].me.uk
Best,
Alex W.
To clarify why I talk about "LCB Glasgow", given LCB stands for "London City Bond"; basically LCB expanded a lot in the last 20 years and now have 5+ major warehouses around the UK, in addition to their two London based ones (in Barking and Tilbury). So these wines do appear to be stored at LCB's Glasgow warehouse.
From reading this thread I'm obviously slightly uncomfortable in my position as a customer of CellarLink, but clearly a lot of people want just that - someone to buy their wine. I've offered some suggestions for how people can segregate and dispose of their wine in the open market and clarified this question of "tax" which seems to have been throw around a lot a vague and terrible thing, which I feel it need not be. I stand by my offer to consider buying, without tax, wine held at LCB Glasgow which was purchased from APW.
My email is the [first initial of my last name]@[my first name].me.uk
Best,
Alex W.
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Well there seems to be a lot of chatter coming from Cellarlink which seemingly does not mention what I see as the main problem with them, and has always been my problem.
First may I say that Mr. Egan mentioned that the “burying” comment I made was taken out of context. Mr Egan appears not to even see that this was a facetious statement.
Getting back to what I see and probably many others may see. This is the fact that Cellarlink appears incapable of putting up invested wine for sale even for sale though an auction. This even occurred as mentioned in a previous post that this was going to be done to settle a debt on a liened account and never happened.
For me, this was never a matter that the value of the wine bought initially as an investment. I am perfectly aware as others that there are ups and downs just the same as there is on the stock market. I would think that a broker who ignored an instruction from a customer to sell his stocks forthwith would soon be in trouble if he didn’t and subsequently the stock dropped through the floor a week later. Not that this is exactly the same for wine, which takes a bit longer to organize.
This certainly puts into ones mind “why was the wine not put up for auction” even if it was to recover debt which Cellarlink was quite allowed to do according to the contract that is kept being thrown in our faces.
This being so it also certainly brings up questions in ones mind. “Why is this So” with the corresponding thoughts of why it may be so.
Cellarlink may bring up the argument that they were waiting for an upturn in the market. This belies the belief that while “waiting” for the upturn, costs and fees accumulated, eventually outstrips the value of the investment.
Right from the start when Cellarlink took management of my wine they were instructed to sell. If they had, and did the same for others the subsequent happenings and the continuation of this forum would never have happened. It would have died with A.P.W.
It has also been stated that wine put up for auction even at “no reserve” may have been “passed in” Generally this means that the bids have not reached the reserve price which is usually kept secret. This is not the case with no reserve. But! there are ways of making sure auctioned items do not get sold at a ridiculously low price. The seller can set a starting price which is disclosed at the start of bidding. This is not a dummy bid (Which is illegal in Australia) as the bid comes from the floor.
I guess we have to ask the question why “no reserve” generally this attracts more people to auctions in hope of getting something at a bargain price. “No Reserve” items invariably get sold.
Also generally when items such as wine are put up for auction to recoup a debt a starting price is usually set to cover this. For example if there is debt outstanding for say about $1000 this plus the cost of selling may be set as the starting price. If the worth of the wine is say $1500 to $2000 average in the market then this is OK. Bidders would be only to glad to get a good wine at a great discount. But if the wine is worth $10,000
And the starting bid is set the same as the example about. This is unconscionable.
Eamonn Egan attitude to you the forum members is a matter of treating you in a contemptuous manner especially in his quote “Passed In” This is not only bad internet netiquette as it is considered shouting at people. Most forums do not allow this.
Welcome to new members and your advice is welcome. I do not think that anyone in this forum has mentioned that his or her gripe is about buying wine from Cellarlink. As a matter of fact any problems in this area would be around like a flash and they would soon go out of business like others have done. It is also interesting that wine which I assume was sent to LCB by APW had these labels on then. Does this mean that they were originally sent to LCB and then moved to Glasgow?
One may like to do a google search on “uvine” about a company that Mr Egan also used to work for before APW.
I have more to say but I will continue in a further post.
As it is now Christmas Eve I wish that all members have a wonderful festive season. A time to relax and enjoy life no matter how someone may try to change it.
First may I say that Mr. Egan mentioned that the “burying” comment I made was taken out of context. Mr Egan appears not to even see that this was a facetious statement.
Getting back to what I see and probably many others may see. This is the fact that Cellarlink appears incapable of putting up invested wine for sale even for sale though an auction. This even occurred as mentioned in a previous post that this was going to be done to settle a debt on a liened account and never happened.
For me, this was never a matter that the value of the wine bought initially as an investment. I am perfectly aware as others that there are ups and downs just the same as there is on the stock market. I would think that a broker who ignored an instruction from a customer to sell his stocks forthwith would soon be in trouble if he didn’t and subsequently the stock dropped through the floor a week later. Not that this is exactly the same for wine, which takes a bit longer to organize.
This certainly puts into ones mind “why was the wine not put up for auction” even if it was to recover debt which Cellarlink was quite allowed to do according to the contract that is kept being thrown in our faces.
This being so it also certainly brings up questions in ones mind. “Why is this So” with the corresponding thoughts of why it may be so.
Cellarlink may bring up the argument that they were waiting for an upturn in the market. This belies the belief that while “waiting” for the upturn, costs and fees accumulated, eventually outstrips the value of the investment.
Right from the start when Cellarlink took management of my wine they were instructed to sell. If they had, and did the same for others the subsequent happenings and the continuation of this forum would never have happened. It would have died with A.P.W.
It has also been stated that wine put up for auction even at “no reserve” may have been “passed in” Generally this means that the bids have not reached the reserve price which is usually kept secret. This is not the case with no reserve. But! there are ways of making sure auctioned items do not get sold at a ridiculously low price. The seller can set a starting price which is disclosed at the start of bidding. This is not a dummy bid (Which is illegal in Australia) as the bid comes from the floor.
I guess we have to ask the question why “no reserve” generally this attracts more people to auctions in hope of getting something at a bargain price. “No Reserve” items invariably get sold.
Also generally when items such as wine are put up for auction to recoup a debt a starting price is usually set to cover this. For example if there is debt outstanding for say about $1000 this plus the cost of selling may be set as the starting price. If the worth of the wine is say $1500 to $2000 average in the market then this is OK. Bidders would be only to glad to get a good wine at a great discount. But if the wine is worth $10,000
And the starting bid is set the same as the example about. This is unconscionable.
Eamonn Egan attitude to you the forum members is a matter of treating you in a contemptuous manner especially in his quote “Passed In” This is not only bad internet netiquette as it is considered shouting at people. Most forums do not allow this.
Welcome to new members and your advice is welcome. I do not think that anyone in this forum has mentioned that his or her gripe is about buying wine from Cellarlink. As a matter of fact any problems in this area would be around like a flash and they would soon go out of business like others have done. It is also interesting that wine which I assume was sent to LCB by APW had these labels on then. Does this mean that they were originally sent to LCB and then moved to Glasgow?
One may like to do a google search on “uvine” about a company that Mr Egan also used to work for before APW.
I have more to say but I will continue in a further post.
As it is now Christmas Eve I wish that all members have a wonderful festive season. A time to relax and enjoy life no matter how someone may try to change it.
Re: cellar link
As a wine seller you got a problem selling 13,000 wines over 4 years period at no reserve? Even more so that you're also the general manager at APW, and I am sure many clients already instructed you to sell their wines since the APW era.
As the tax will be very low for selling at low price, I do think many clients prefer to pay the low tax and stop wasting their money for cellar link's high fees since a long time ago. This too will be much better exit method many clients prefer than paying the ridiculously high fee for destroying the wines, which seems to be the only exit strategy offered by cellar link.
Look when we bought the wines, we've never been told about the ongoing expensive fees. We just expected the wines will be sold for a profit or a loss (but of course APW made us believe we'll make a profit), and that's it. The contract by cellar link is made when we already bought the wines, and we're given no option to enter the contract or send back the wines at a very high price. I foolishly entered the contract and believed that cellar link will sell the wines as instructed.
Again, Eamonn Egan is the general manager for both APW and cellar link.
As a wine seller you got a problem selling 13,000 wines over 4 years period at no reserve? Even more so that you're also the general manager at APW, and I am sure many clients already instructed you to sell their wines since the APW era.
As the tax will be very low for selling at low price, I do think many clients prefer to pay the low tax and stop wasting their money for cellar link's high fees since a long time ago. This too will be much better exit method many clients prefer than paying the ridiculously high fee for destroying the wines, which seems to be the only exit strategy offered by cellar link.
Look when we bought the wines, we've never been told about the ongoing expensive fees. We just expected the wines will be sold for a profit or a loss (but of course APW made us believe we'll make a profit), and that's it. The contract by cellar link is made when we already bought the wines, and we're given no option to enter the contract or send back the wines at a very high price. I foolishly entered the contract and believed that cellar link will sell the wines as instructed.
Again, Eamonn Egan is the general manager for both APW and cellar link.
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Re: cellar link
Yeah and in Scotland too, that lot would be gone in two minutes if the Jocks got to hear about it.
Yeah and in Scotland too, that lot would be gone in two minutes if the Jocks got to hear about it.
Re: cellar link
"As the tax will be very low for selling at low price, I do think many clients prefer to pay the low tax and stop wasting their money for cellar link's high fees since a long time ago. This too will be much better exit method many clients prefer than paying the ridiculously high fee for destroying the wines, which seems to be the only exit strategy offered by cellar link."
is the VAT paid on the price its sold at (retail price), or what we paid for it (wholesale price). I did a quick calculation on the VAT and Duty payable for me to give the wine away to friends in the UK and it came to a reasonably scary figure. If you give it away, how would the VAT be calculated ?
"As the tax will be very low for selling at low price, I do think many clients prefer to pay the low tax and stop wasting their money for cellar link's high fees since a long time ago. This too will be much better exit method many clients prefer than paying the ridiculously high fee for destroying the wines, which seems to be the only exit strategy offered by cellar link."
is the VAT paid on the price its sold at (retail price), or what we paid for it (wholesale price). I did a quick calculation on the VAT and Duty payable for me to give the wine away to friends in the UK and it came to a reasonably scary figure. If you give it away, how would the VAT be calculated ?
yes, I've received everything stored in OZ reasonably quickly and in good condition,
Stormfront
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Re: cellar link
Hi ozzyjohn,
From reading the links below, I think the Import VAT is calculated on the purchase value as detailed on the original customs receipt at time of import by APW.
Here is a link to HMRC on Import VAT; scroll down to Import VAT.
HM Revenue & Customs: Customs Duty, Excise Duty and Import VAT: introduction
Also this might be relevant,
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/managing/international/imports/importing.htm
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Stormfront
Hi ozzyjohn,
From reading the links below, I think the Import VAT is calculated on the purchase value as detailed on the original customs receipt at time of import by APW.
Here is a link to HMRC on Import VAT; scroll down to Import VAT.
HM Revenue & Customs: Customs Duty, Excise Duty and Import VAT: introduction
Also this might be relevant,
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/managing/international/imports/importing.htm
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Stormfront
Stormfront
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Hello Eamonn,
Could you explain why no option has been offered to clients to sell the wines in auction houses such as the ones mentioned in a previous post eg Straker Chadwick?
Also, given the large volumes of wine available, why no successful trade sales have been made to hotels, restaurant chains or wine clubs? If they have, I apologise but I have not heard of any clients having this opportunity.
Regards,
Stormfront
Could you explain why no option has been offered to clients to sell the wines in auction houses such as the ones mentioned in a previous post eg Straker Chadwick?
Also, given the large volumes of wine available, why no successful trade sales have been made to hotels, restaurant chains or wine clubs? If they have, I apologise but I have not heard of any clients having this opportunity.
Regards,
Stormfront
Re: cellar link
Hi ozzyjohn,
Actually, my presumption is based on post #128, which quoted below. Based on that, the worse you have to pay for the VAt is £1.80 per bottle. But I do think with no reserve, the wines should sell more than zero and enough to cover the VAT.
You can also consider alexwuk offer too.
Hi ozzyjohn,
Actually, my presumption is based on post #128, which quoted below. Based on that, the worse you have to pay for the VAt is £1.80 per bottle. But I do think with no reserve, the wines should sell more than zero and enough to cover the VAT.
You can also consider alexwuk offer too.
Re: cellar link
To clarify: if you release the wine from your Cellarlink account to yourself/friends/Unbonded auction house (which straker are), you pay VAT (the UK's version of GST) on the price you paid for the wines - even if you have written the wine off in your head/on your balance sheet.
To clarify: if you release the wine from your Cellarlink account to yourself/friends/Unbonded auction house (which straker are), you pay VAT (the UK's version of GST) on the price you paid for the wines - even if you have written the wine off in your head/on your balance sheet.
Eamonn Egan
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Members, as always this is an interesting discussion. And I am more than happy to continue my contribution.
Firstly, to Alex thank you for your support over the last few years. Your outstanding issues of LCB dropping all of your wines and breaking every case, of course is their fault but our responsibility. I believe your credit card has been fully refunded for the wine purchase you made and we could not provide as a result. LCB will reimburse us and our clients will be paid for the sale in any case.
Deferred Tax
I have attached a flow chart of the issue surrounding the tax structure the Australian Portfolio Wines Pty Ltd historical clients find themselves in. This is not something of our making and cannot be changed.
Alex’s comments are correct he can buy the wine “In Bond” and no tax is payable, but we can’t sell Alex every bottle of wine, nor can we sell every bottle of wine In Bond to the trade. If we could - we would. In the last 18 months we have sold by Export means – 1,000’s of bottles of wine into Hong Kong, Europe and Ireland and no tax was payable by the sellers. Again typically the wines that sell are of course the wines that are well priced or in demand. What is to happen to the others?
Auction Houses
I have over the time, used the following Auction houses for clients, Straker Chadwick, Derwetts , Bonham’s and Christies in the UK, and Langton’s and Oddbin’s in Australia. However, the sheer volume of wines to be sold, there is no way any auction house would just take 600,000 bottles to market and hope for the best. It would not pay them.
When I have used the providers in the past, the volume of wines capable of being placed in the market, and then the wine volume sold, timeframe to sell and prices achieved, have all been generally unacceptable or unpalatable to the clients, and achieved little. That was why we created our own retail websites to clear wines for the clients, as at least we could control the price, volume and marketing strategy with that approach, in what is a VERY VERY busy market.
Sotheby’s refused to take Aussie wines, as they are only interested in French wines, and the large commission that typically goes with First Growth sales.
Reserve Price's
The problem with a theoretical no reserve price, is three fold. The sale price must cover;
1. The expenses incurred by Cellar Link up to the point of putting the wines for sale.
2. The commission payable to the auction house
3. The Deferred VAT applicable at the time of sale
So, in the meantime, it has to be stored somewhere, be insured, be managed, what would you do?
Using Auction houses for wine sales
I recently approached Bonham’s again to only be told the following:
“We are a bit bunged up with Australian wines for our February and March sales so I doubt that we could offer anything until 10th May, assuming that we have cleared the decks by then. Australian wines have been moving fairly steadily but have to be offered in homeopathic quantities and at prices that I don’t think you approve of. Given that most of these wines come in 6’s, we are paying RH&D (Receipt/Handling and Delivery charges) on cases which, in many instances, will not make more than £50-60 so I am afraid that we have has to take a rather firmer view on commission, which stands at 15%.” (Anthony Barne, Bonham’s, 23-12-2011)
We have been approached by Bid for Wine (Lionel) to supply some cases of Kay Brother’s wines, where he had inadvertently over sold some wines at auction, and had to respectfully decline as the price he achieved was around 60% less than we were getting at the time. After all I have to take the clients best interests into account also as I am sure I would get castigated if I gave the stuff away !
Trade Sales
In the instance where we do trade sales, we don’t supply wine on consignment, (our client contract does not allow for such a thing) and as such have a liability to pay the taxes on wines once they leave the warehouse and also to pay our clients, irrespective whether or not the trade buyer pays us. So we don’t chase this market as our clients would castigate us if we could not pay them, and I am not about to get stuck in the present GFC environment with a debtor ledger I can’t handle, why would I !
We have supplied some of the largest traders in the UK, HK and Australia with wine. But I can assure you they only want about 10% of the stock list and cannot be convinced to take any wine they don’t like, or know, or think there is any risk they can’t sell them.
So, where does that leave us with 20,000 bottles of d’Arenberg Coppermine Road to sell ! Even the UK wholesalers ran a mile when we tried to do a deal with them on the stocks.
London City Bond
In 2007 LCB advised APW that Vinotheque was full, and could not accept any more APW (Australia) stocks. They offered to consolidate all wine in their new warehouse in Glasgow and duly paid for the consolidation and movement of the wines to that location. NO charges were incurred by any client for this move. This was 2 + years before Cellar Link came into existence.
The wines sold by APW were originally transported to LCB @ Tillbury Docks, later they went to Vinotheque in Burton On Trent when LCB acquired that business.
Uvine
Uvine.com; I was appointed by Christopher Burr MW, in 2000 to set up and run Uvine.com Ltd in Sydney, a wholly owned subsidiary of Uvine.com Ltd (London). I was appointed the Managing Director of Uvine.com Ltd (Australia) from 2000 through April 2003. Uvine.com Ltd (London) subsequently failed, and went into receivership in 2006. I don’t believe that Uvine.com Ltd (Australia) failed to supply wines purchased from it, nor did it trade insolvently, nor did it have debts to anyone at the time of being closed in Sydney, by the MD who took over from me. I was never a shareholder or investor of Uvine.com Ltd in either Australia, or London. I was contracted to manage Australia only.
I can’t be held accountable for every company I have ever worked for, 3 years after the time I left their employ or the contract ended. It’s a bit of a stretch for Mr. Wilf - Staton to imply such a thing.
I trust this answers the follow up questions raised since my last post, please feel free to continue to raise questions and I will do my best to address them.
Firstly, to Alex thank you for your support over the last few years. Your outstanding issues of LCB dropping all of your wines and breaking every case, of course is their fault but our responsibility. I believe your credit card has been fully refunded for the wine purchase you made and we could not provide as a result. LCB will reimburse us and our clients will be paid for the sale in any case.
Deferred Tax
I have attached a flow chart of the issue surrounding the tax structure the Australian Portfolio Wines Pty Ltd historical clients find themselves in. This is not something of our making and cannot be changed.
Alex’s comments are correct he can buy the wine “In Bond” and no tax is payable, but we can’t sell Alex every bottle of wine, nor can we sell every bottle of wine In Bond to the trade. If we could - we would. In the last 18 months we have sold by Export means – 1,000’s of bottles of wine into Hong Kong, Europe and Ireland and no tax was payable by the sellers. Again typically the wines that sell are of course the wines that are well priced or in demand. What is to happen to the others?
Auction Houses
I have over the time, used the following Auction houses for clients, Straker Chadwick, Derwetts , Bonham’s and Christies in the UK, and Langton’s and Oddbin’s in Australia. However, the sheer volume of wines to be sold, there is no way any auction house would just take 600,000 bottles to market and hope for the best. It would not pay them.
When I have used the providers in the past, the volume of wines capable of being placed in the market, and then the wine volume sold, timeframe to sell and prices achieved, have all been generally unacceptable or unpalatable to the clients, and achieved little. That was why we created our own retail websites to clear wines for the clients, as at least we could control the price, volume and marketing strategy with that approach, in what is a VERY VERY busy market.
Sotheby’s refused to take Aussie wines, as they are only interested in French wines, and the large commission that typically goes with First Growth sales.
Reserve Price's
The problem with a theoretical no reserve price, is three fold. The sale price must cover;
1. The expenses incurred by Cellar Link up to the point of putting the wines for sale.
2. The commission payable to the auction house
3. The Deferred VAT applicable at the time of sale
So, in the meantime, it has to be stored somewhere, be insured, be managed, what would you do?
Using Auction houses for wine sales
I recently approached Bonham’s again to only be told the following:
“We are a bit bunged up with Australian wines for our February and March sales so I doubt that we could offer anything until 10th May, assuming that we have cleared the decks by then. Australian wines have been moving fairly steadily but have to be offered in homeopathic quantities and at prices that I don’t think you approve of. Given that most of these wines come in 6’s, we are paying RH&D (Receipt/Handling and Delivery charges) on cases which, in many instances, will not make more than £50-60 so I am afraid that we have has to take a rather firmer view on commission, which stands at 15%.” (Anthony Barne, Bonham’s, 23-12-2011)
We have been approached by Bid for Wine (Lionel) to supply some cases of Kay Brother’s wines, where he had inadvertently over sold some wines at auction, and had to respectfully decline as the price he achieved was around 60% less than we were getting at the time. After all I have to take the clients best interests into account also as I am sure I would get castigated if I gave the stuff away !
Trade Sales
In the instance where we do trade sales, we don’t supply wine on consignment, (our client contract does not allow for such a thing) and as such have a liability to pay the taxes on wines once they leave the warehouse and also to pay our clients, irrespective whether or not the trade buyer pays us. So we don’t chase this market as our clients would castigate us if we could not pay them, and I am not about to get stuck in the present GFC environment with a debtor ledger I can’t handle, why would I !
We have supplied some of the largest traders in the UK, HK and Australia with wine. But I can assure you they only want about 10% of the stock list and cannot be convinced to take any wine they don’t like, or know, or think there is any risk they can’t sell them.
So, where does that leave us with 20,000 bottles of d’Arenberg Coppermine Road to sell ! Even the UK wholesalers ran a mile when we tried to do a deal with them on the stocks.
London City Bond
In 2007 LCB advised APW that Vinotheque was full, and could not accept any more APW (Australia) stocks. They offered to consolidate all wine in their new warehouse in Glasgow and duly paid for the consolidation and movement of the wines to that location. NO charges were incurred by any client for this move. This was 2 + years before Cellar Link came into existence.
The wines sold by APW were originally transported to LCB @ Tillbury Docks, later they went to Vinotheque in Burton On Trent when LCB acquired that business.
Uvine
Uvine.com; I was appointed by Christopher Burr MW, in 2000 to set up and run Uvine.com Ltd in Sydney, a wholly owned subsidiary of Uvine.com Ltd (London). I was appointed the Managing Director of Uvine.com Ltd (Australia) from 2000 through April 2003. Uvine.com Ltd (London) subsequently failed, and went into receivership in 2006. I don’t believe that Uvine.com Ltd (Australia) failed to supply wines purchased from it, nor did it trade insolvently, nor did it have debts to anyone at the time of being closed in Sydney, by the MD who took over from me. I was never a shareholder or investor of Uvine.com Ltd in either Australia, or London. I was contracted to manage Australia only.
I can’t be held accountable for every company I have ever worked for, 3 years after the time I left their employ or the contract ended. It’s a bit of a stretch for Mr. Wilf - Staton to imply such a thing.
I trust this answers the follow up questions raised since my last post, please feel free to continue to raise questions and I will do my best to address them.
Eamonn Egan
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My apologies - please see the attachment referred to above regarding VAT
So in brief you sold these people wine which is almost worthless. How does that differ from what uvine did many years earlier?
Hi Eamonn,
Hopefully your orders ledger shows I'm trying to make a dent in the wine mountain... my database says I've bought around 700 bottles CellarLink.. I'm trying!
Which would explain why I'm rarely sober...
600,000 is indeed a huge, huge number. Way, way bigger than the UK can handle. Remember: the UK already had a number of these wines exported directly by the wineries, who calculated UK demand and sent that amount of wine: these 600,000 bottles are on top of that. Effectively the APW purchases in Oz and subsequent transfer to the UK artificially starved the Australian domestic market of wine and then dumped it on a market which had already had its needs satisfied by the wineries themselves.
Australian wines in the UK market effectively carry leprosy. Ditto the US. Now the real question is whether its worth sending everything back to Australia for auction? For the low value wines, probably not ... but I really can't see how to sell 20,000 bottles of premium McLaren Vale Cabernet any other way than in Sydney.
Clearly whoever sold those as an investment proposition did not have their purchasers financial interest at heart.
Hi everyone. Hope you all had a wonderful time over Christmas and New year. I did. Spent the time with my family specifically with my three granddaughters watching their delight as they unwrapped presents, taking them to parties and to see the usual holiday films. I actually got back a week ago but had to spend a lot of time in the paddock cutting the grass back. Had it slashed before I went away but the grass had grown a lot while I was away. Being the fire season here, one cannot be too careful.
Thank you Mr. Egan for the insight on how the wine trade works as far as selling investment wine.
You mentioned that you would not sell wine at give away prices because you would be castrated by the wine investors. Do I remember seeing some members in this forum saying how “Can I give my wine away so I can get out of this financial loop” This in itself indicates that they would not have minded it being sold at lower than expected prices. Indeed I myself asked APW and Cellarlink to sell my wine at a price that would cover the debt but had no forthcoming response to this.. In the meantime the debt just rose and rose making it harder and harder to sell at a below competitive price.
Regarding selling the wine “In Bond” and not able to sell it for export from the bonded warehouse. I understand that transfers between bonded warehouses was allowable without having to pay any tax. There was a case that this was being taken advantage of by unscrupulous businessmen in order to avoid paying tax in some way. Equally unfortunately the prosecution process was stuffed up by Revenue and Customs and the case was chucked out. This was not to say this was not happening, case procedures were not followed or something. You can find reference to this at
It has also been mentioned that there are 20,000 bottles of d’Arenburg Coppermine Road available and held by Cellarlink. I would think from some research I did that Cellarlink must have cornered the market for this wine in UK and possibly the world, as there seem very little elsewhere around. Most of the sites I have visited either have no stock or have only one bottle. There are a few that say they have 6+. Heavens! I even found that Christies had 24 bottles for auction.
This makes me think back. I highly suspect that APW sold me wine that was already in bond at LCB in UK. They did send me a letter that my wine was in transit to London but sadly having been treated as I have by APW I have to take this tongue in cheek. What I also have to consider is that maybe APW bought and sent a lot of this wine to UK hoping to make a killing, found they could not offload it and then caught people like me. Tell me Mr. Egan where did the 20,000 bottles you hold come from? APW and investors who bought through APW I guess. I wonder just how many bottles were produced. I will have to find out.
Now lets talk about integrity and “its not my fault” it’s all APW’s. As member alexwuk mentioned the investment was financially flawed at the time APW was touting these wines. But Mr Egan, you must have known about the difficulty being experienced with this wine and probably other types as well at the time Cellarlink came into being. I had originally decided not to move to Cellarlink. I kept getting badgered by salespeople to move this wine across to Cellarlink. I eventually got email from Cellarlink they would accept it on lien. At the time I understood that the wine would be sold and then all expenses would be paid from the proceeds. Of course the salesman said that it was a good wine and wouldn’t be a problem selling. That was not quite true was it! So please do not keep saying it has nothing to do with you. Was all this wine investors or some of it APW’s stock. If so we can guess whose stock Cellarlink would be trying to sell first.
Your whole document is a litany of justification excusing Cellarlink for not being able to sell any of our wine when at the time Cellarlink must have know that there was a problem of a wine glut at the time they took over accounts. Cellarlink didn’t have a problem because they must have known that even if the wine didn’t sell they still got their fees. Cellarlink has no outlay holding stock the investors have this. A member mentioned that Cellarlink do own their own stock and any wine sold I would suspect that theirs would be at the head of the list to be sold before investors anyway. If this is the case we could call this a “conflict of interest”
Now the flow chart is interesting apart from the fact that it was thrown in as some sort of justification. The part where it says that says “Cellarlink purchases the APW database and is required to inherit the APW structure” is interesting. This, I take is that Cellarlink paid for the database and to ensure that it got it’s money back it needed to get as many of the Investors on board from APW as it could to justify the purchase. I think everyone here knows that VAT has to be paid and this in no way part of what this is all about.
But do you know that if you decided to try and return wine to Australia you will have to pay excise duty (GB21.72 / $AU32.06) and VAT. (20%) This in itself makes it ridiculous for Australians to buy wine in Australia and sent to a bonded warehouse in UK. Then decide to have it exported back to Australia. I also suspect you would also end up paying WET (29%) and GST (10%). Good one APW and Cellarlink. And of course let’s not forget the cost of shipping.
As far as Urvine was concerned I was just pointing out that Mr. Egan seems to go through some employers that seem to have some stigma associated with them. It should also be noted that “Urvine” was accused of the fraudulent non delivery of wine in the UK. Whether there was an investment component in this I do not know.
As a senior manager at APW Mr. Egan cannot justifiable excuse himself from knowing what was going on no matter how much justification he tries to show for divorcing himself from any responsibility.
Thank you Mr. Egan for the insight on how the wine trade works as far as selling investment wine.
You mentioned that you would not sell wine at give away prices because you would be castrated by the wine investors. Do I remember seeing some members in this forum saying how “Can I give my wine away so I can get out of this financial loop” This in itself indicates that they would not have minded it being sold at lower than expected prices. Indeed I myself asked APW and Cellarlink to sell my wine at a price that would cover the debt but had no forthcoming response to this.. In the meantime the debt just rose and rose making it harder and harder to sell at a below competitive price.
Regarding selling the wine “In Bond” and not able to sell it for export from the bonded warehouse. I understand that transfers between bonded warehouses was allowable without having to pay any tax. There was a case that this was being taken advantage of by unscrupulous businessmen in order to avoid paying tax in some way. Equally unfortunately the prosecution process was stuffed up by Revenue and Customs and the case was chucked out. This was not to say this was not happening, case procedures were not followed or something. You can find reference to this at
http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/butterfield_3_.pdf
. I think you will find it makes interesting reading.It has also been mentioned that there are 20,000 bottles of d’Arenburg Coppermine Road available and held by Cellarlink. I would think from some research I did that Cellarlink must have cornered the market for this wine in UK and possibly the world, as there seem very little elsewhere around. Most of the sites I have visited either have no stock or have only one bottle. There are a few that say they have 6+. Heavens! I even found that Christies had 24 bottles for auction.
This makes me think back. I highly suspect that APW sold me wine that was already in bond at LCB in UK. They did send me a letter that my wine was in transit to London but sadly having been treated as I have by APW I have to take this tongue in cheek. What I also have to consider is that maybe APW bought and sent a lot of this wine to UK hoping to make a killing, found they could not offload it and then caught people like me. Tell me Mr. Egan where did the 20,000 bottles you hold come from? APW and investors who bought through APW I guess. I wonder just how many bottles were produced. I will have to find out.
Now lets talk about integrity and “its not my fault” it’s all APW’s. As member alexwuk mentioned the investment was financially flawed at the time APW was touting these wines. But Mr Egan, you must have known about the difficulty being experienced with this wine and probably other types as well at the time Cellarlink came into being. I had originally decided not to move to Cellarlink. I kept getting badgered by salespeople to move this wine across to Cellarlink. I eventually got email from Cellarlink they would accept it on lien. At the time I understood that the wine would be sold and then all expenses would be paid from the proceeds. Of course the salesman said that it was a good wine and wouldn’t be a problem selling. That was not quite true was it! So please do not keep saying it has nothing to do with you. Was all this wine investors or some of it APW’s stock. If so we can guess whose stock Cellarlink would be trying to sell first.
Your whole document is a litany of justification excusing Cellarlink for not being able to sell any of our wine when at the time Cellarlink must have know that there was a problem of a wine glut at the time they took over accounts. Cellarlink didn’t have a problem because they must have known that even if the wine didn’t sell they still got their fees. Cellarlink has no outlay holding stock the investors have this. A member mentioned that Cellarlink do own their own stock and any wine sold I would suspect that theirs would be at the head of the list to be sold before investors anyway. If this is the case we could call this a “conflict of interest”
Now the flow chart is interesting apart from the fact that it was thrown in as some sort of justification. The part where it says that says “Cellarlink purchases the APW database and is required to inherit the APW structure” is interesting. This, I take is that Cellarlink paid for the database and to ensure that it got it’s money back it needed to get as many of the Investors on board from APW as it could to justify the purchase. I think everyone here knows that VAT has to be paid and this in no way part of what this is all about.
But do you know that if you decided to try and return wine to Australia you will have to pay excise duty (GB21.72 / $AU32.06) and VAT. (20%) This in itself makes it ridiculous for Australians to buy wine in Australia and sent to a bonded warehouse in UK. Then decide to have it exported back to Australia. I also suspect you would also end up paying WET (29%) and GST (10%). Good one APW and Cellarlink. And of course let’s not forget the cost of shipping.
As far as Urvine was concerned I was just pointing out that Mr. Egan seems to go through some employers that seem to have some stigma associated with them. It should also be noted that “Urvine” was accused of the fraudulent non delivery of wine in the UK. Whether there was an investment component in this I do not know.
As a senior manager at APW Mr. Egan cannot justifiable excuse himself from knowing what was going on no matter how much justification he tries to show for divorcing himself from any responsibility.
I`m in the same boat have you had any luck at all in everything you`ve tried
I`m thinking of doing the same what has been the response from Cellarlink
barjon
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T2W is advised as follows:
Australian Portfolio Wines (UK) Ltd
reference should read as above not APW or Australian Portfolio Wines in a generic form.
The Australian company of the same name is not the referenced company: AUSTRALIAN PORTFOLIO WINES PTY LTD
http://www.search.asic.gov.au/cgi-bi...=ACN&srchsrc=1
http://www.search.asic.gov.au/cgi-bi...=ACN&srchsrc=1 (Cellar Link Pty Ltd is a new company, registered in August 2008, and commenced trading in Feburuary 2009). It has never sold investment wines, and only sells wines others own (for them) and charges for the service, storage and assistance. We DO NOT SELL INVESTMENT WINES. Any client opening an account is asked to sign terms and conditions as linked: http://www.cellarlink.com.au/comersu...onditions.html
I would be grateful if posters would refrain from expressing their opinions in emotive terms such as "scam" "ripped-off" etc. Please stick to the facts. Thx.
jon
Australian Portfolio Wines (UK) Ltd
reference should read as above not APW or Australian Portfolio Wines in a generic form.
The Australian company of the same name is not the referenced company: AUSTRALIAN PORTFOLIO WINES PTY LTD
http://www.search.asic.gov.au/cgi-bi...=ACN&srchsrc=1
http://www.search.asic.gov.au/cgi-bi...=ACN&srchsrc=1 (Cellar Link Pty Ltd is a new company, registered in August 2008, and commenced trading in Feburuary 2009). It has never sold investment wines, and only sells wines others own (for them) and charges for the service, storage and assistance. We DO NOT SELL INVESTMENT WINES. Any client opening an account is asked to sign terms and conditions as linked: http://www.cellarlink.com.au/comersu...onditions.html
I would be grateful if posters would refrain from expressing their opinions in emotive terms such as "scam" "ripped-off" etc. Please stick to the facts. Thx.
jon
