Advertising or trading threads?

[fxmarkets]

For a long time I wouldn't come near T2W again, thought it was full of charlatans. I know better now, there are some good folks here!

hmm, thats why I can see the opportunity for some form of self regulation by websites such as these in the future... or perhaps working with the mindset offering a moral duty of care of sorts to its membership to assist in promoting paid for services which have at least "some" evidence of vetting to ensure vendors at least have met a scrutiny which evidence suggests the vendor has on his or her own behalf actually turned a consistent profit.

Of course this is just a piece of the whole , maybe a thread to seek questions from members as to what info they would expect to be presented regarding a vendor,coach,trader Should as an absolute minimum be verified. The website could then positively promote these into a section which have at least had these requirements independently assayed.


We do not just have to leave it to a disclaimer.

 

[fxmarkets]

Putting the onus on the site administration to vet vendors' products and services is not a workable solution. They are not here for that.

Of course it can be done? why are they not here for that? their website, their membership, their allowing vendors, their members may associate their website with a very negative experience and negative substantial loss through an introduction promoted on this site..... so why not go beyond a blanket risk disclaimer off site... they dont have to, but instead of going by the book, they could choose to go beyond it in certain areas leading to at least a visible attempt to make improvements for its members.

 

[Parky]

It has been apparent from day one that some houses have had recruiting sergeants on this web site, scouring the e-mails and posting poorly disguised adverts for "their" products be they trading rooms or trading mediums.
But this weakness has also been this sites advantage as it offers new traders a chance to get some advice (be it good or bad) and to get some introductions and a way of getting a foot in the door. Someone posting a blatant advert is open to criticisms and counter postings.
But T2W itself has been guilty of advertising and in my early days here was praising a dodgy trading group having the front to have some "so called" expert extolling the virtues of this company which had found a dubious way around FSA client money rules and is generally thought of as an absolute disaster waiting to happen.
As long as this is an open forum then people can voice differing opinions and challenge preconceived ideas then I think that people will find it useful.
The danger is that the percentage of useful and interesting posts gets diluted and all you are left with is the adverts and no real debate at which point people will stop logging on.
Most people I know who use this site do so to hear news in the market place, to find out the latest rumours and to see what is being said about their trading rooms and other peoples trading rooms. To see whats in and whats out. As long as they continue to get something useful and informative from the site without getting force fed adverts they will keep logging on.

 

[Directional]

But T2W itself has been guilty of advertising and in my early days here was praising a dodgy trading group having the front to have some "so called" expert extolling the virtues of this company which had found a dubious way around FSA client money rules and is generally thought of as an absolute disaster waiting to happen.

If thats a jibe at me for discussing the Traders Clearing Alliance last year, i never claimed to be an expert on anything - lighten up. I thought it seemed like a good idea at the time and I still do. I certainly wasnt advertising and I'm (still) not associated with them either.

Besides, far from being a disaster they seem to be snowballing as their room at fortis had doubled in size when I popped in last week. And they would appear to have outlasted Zen, even with a fortis buy in.

As long as this is an open forum then people can voice differing opinions and challenge preconceived ideas then I think that people will find it useful.

Couldnt agree more.

 

[Racer]

From the Trade2Win FAQ in case anyone hasn't read them
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/faq.php?faq=faq_site_guidelines#faq_item_site_guidelines

4. Advertising

4.1 T2W does not allow advertising of any kind on the forums or anywhere else on the site, whether trading or non-trading related. The exception to this rule is within the dedicated “T2W Sponsors Announcements” Forum, which is for our paid sponsors to promote their products.
4.2 If you have a commercial product or service to sell, and would like to bring it to the attention of the T2W membership, please contact [email protected] .
4.3 Advertising includes, but is not limited to, posting your URL, offering items for sale or trade, announcements of new sites, and posting images or details of a product.
4.4 Vendors should not start threads for the purpose of drawing attention to their product or services, unless they are posting in the “T2W Sponsors Announcements” Forum.
4.5 The Private Mail system must not be used to advertise products or solicit trade. Any members found abusing this may be banned.
4.6 If a thread raises the discussion of a particular product or service, the provider of that product or service may post a response to answer any questions or provide any information requested. The Private Mail system may not be used for this purpose.

 

[rols]

Putting the onus on the site administration to vet vendors' products and services is not a workable solution. They are not here for that.

The only true test of any product of service is recommendation. Why not have a thread dedicated to discussions on the various products and services offered, perhaps even a thread for each one, why not.

Those members that have use or have used the product or service can then post away.

There is no guarantee everyone who has received the product or service will post. And human nature being what it is there is every possibility of those unhappy will be more motivated to post than those who are deliriously happy.

I can not see why any vendor would object to this as if they or their product is any good, it can only serve to amplify their revenues and benefit the membership in general.

As I think about it now, I believe this should be a mandatory for all vendors. Out in the open with public response from those who have direct experience of them/their product/their service.

For those that would counter about personalities getting in the way, where personality is a part of the service (mentoring/coaching/teaching etc.) it is as vital a component of the package as anything else and should be considered. Obviously the moderators would have to ensure suitable decorum was maintained at all times so it would be in the interests of those with any axe to grind to do so politely and factually rather than emotionally or rudely.

This idea, though noble in concept, is dead in the water.
You can already buy positive feedback on Ebay so why wouldn't that happen here?
http://scams.flipshark.com/safefeedback.html

There are already thinly disguised bogus posters on this site already who try to cunningly draw attention to their own products.

BTW I have a large quantity of dark curly hair for sale if anyone's interested.
:cheesy:

 

[Sharky]

Thanks to everyone who expressed their views. I'm going to be discussing what's been said with the other mods and then we'll shortly announce what steps we intend to take.

 

[dbphoenix]

After reviewing this thread, I suggest that perhaps one way of resolving all the pro/con difficulties with these "commercial" threads (Trading with Mo, Trading with Curly, Trading with Larry) is simple transparency. No new forums required, no fees, no changes in rules (but one), perhaps not even any identifiers. Simply require the individual who is posting trades to be completely transparent when he/she is asked about why he managed the trade the way he did, how he selected the stock, etc. If one wants to discuss a hindsight trade (and they are all hindsight, in one way or another), then he can be expected to explain, in detail, the process, from scan to selection to exit. None of this "well, the selections are provided in my/our room", or "the criteria for determining go/nogo on entry are discussed on my/our website", or "the alerts are provided via my/our newsletter".

In other words, if the poster - whether he/she is a "vendor" or not - is not willing to explain exactly how/why he selected the stock and exactly why he played the stock the way he did, then we can all drop the pretense about "sharing" and "giving back" and recognize the posts for what they are before deleting them.

If a vendor really wants to share, if he really wants to teach, if he really wants to help, then he must be prepared to offer what amounts to an ongoing KL article, not just "look what I did". Otherwise, he's just trollling.

 

[charliechan]

I have a great system for anyone who is interested its called hard work, self responsibility and discipline....and as Nike says....'just do it'.

and the real funny thing is that it costs a lot less than some shill's snake oil 'learn my secret pattern' course!

P.T. Barnum: no one ever went broke overestimating the gullibility of the American people.

perhaps we should replace americans with the word 'trader'

 

[Racer]

Thanks to everyone who expressed their views. I'm going to be discussing what's been said with the other mods and then we'll shortly announce what steps we intend to take.

Any updates available yet?

 

[wasp]

Any updates available yet?

Wondering the same too...

Really should be a HOT topic...

 

[Sharky]

Thanks for your patience everyone. We've been discussing the issue behind the scenes and I'll be announcing any changes to the advertising rules before the end of this week.

 

[Sharky]

Having discussed it with the other mods our initial proposal is to proceed as follows:

1. Site Guidelines to be updated with the following text:

4. Advertising

4.1 T2W does not allow members to post advertisments of any kind either in the forums, in journals, in the Traderpedia or anywhere else where members can publish content on the website or the chatrooms. The only exception to this rule is posts within the dedicated “T2W Sponsors Announcements” Forum, which is for our paid sponsors to promote their products.

4.2 If you have a commercial product or service to sell, and would like to bring it to the attention of the T2W membership, please contact [email protected]

4.3 Advertising includes, but is not limited to: posting the URL of your commercial web site; offering for sale (or a free trial of) your product and/or service; posting references to, excerpts from, or details of your product and/or service; submitting a post with minimal content that, even in the absence of explicit references towards your product and/or service, is clearly designed to act as a lure towards it; posting your Email address or asking members to contact you for details of your product and/or service.
("Your" in the instances above includes any commercial connection between the vendor ("you") and the product and/or service in question).

4.4 Exceptions:
a. Substantial content that derives from or is connected to a commercial product (e.g extracts from a subscription-only newsletter) may be permitted provided that the content is deemed useful to the community by the moderators and provided that there is absolutely no direct reference to its commercial nature.
b. Members with no connection to commercial products and/or services may of course mention them where relevant.
c. Vendors may answer specific questions that relate to an aspect of their product and/or service, provided that they do not use their response as a means of promoting it.

4.5 Members who feel that a vendor is acting inappropriately or in an underhand manner with respect to these guidelines should alert a moderator and state their reasons. Members who feel that a post is not useful to the community and merely a lure to attract customers should report it for moderators' consideration and action.

4.6 The Private Mail system must not be used to advertise products or solicit trade.

4.7 Members found infringing these guidelines will receive a warning and a subsequent ban if they continue to do so.

5. Vendors

5.1 Vendors - anyone who has a commercial interest in selling/marketing their product or service to T2W members must declare this interest in their personal user profile. If a member found to have an undeclared commercial interest has also clearly been deceiving the community in this respect for the purpose of, or with a view to, his/her commercial gain, he/she may receive an immediate ban at the discretion of the moderators.

2. A new addition to the user profile page will be a vendor status box. If you have any sort of commercial interest, then you will be required to state what that commercial interest from a pre-populated list. This list will also be required on new registrations.

3. Members who are vendors (from 2. above) will have a vendor icon next to their username in any posts they make. Mousing over the icon will reveal the type of vendor the member is.

---------------

Note that the updates to the site guidelines will not be applied retrospectively - since such an undertaking would require considerable time and effort.

After the above changes are in place, we'll probably review the situation again and look to see whether any additional changes need to be made such as having a dedicated vendor forum.

For the next week, members are welcome to comment on the proposal. After this time and depending on the feedback, amendments may be made at T2W's discretion before the proposal is made live.

I'm going to be away for a week, returning on the 24th June - so I won't be able to provide any feedback myself on comments made before that time.

 

[Charlton]

5. Vendors

5.1 Vendors - anyone who has a commercial interest in selling/marketing their product or service to T2W members must declare this interest in their personal user profile. If a member found to have an undeclared commercial interest has also clearly been deceiving the community in this respect for the purpose of, or with a view to, his/her commercial gain, he/she may receive an immediate ban at the discretion of the moderators.



3. Members who are vendors (from 2. above) will have a vendor icon next to their username in any posts they make. Mousing over the icon will reveal the type of vendor the member is.

---------------

Note that the updates to the site guidelines will not be applied retrospectively - since such an undertaking would require considerable time and effort.

I assume, though, that "existing" vendors will be required to declare 5.1 before they could make further postings and not be considered to be in breach of these rules ?

Chalrton

 

[frugi]

Existing vendors will certainly be required to declare their commercial interests and T2W will be contacting as many as possible by private message as (or just before) the new guidelines take effect. I imagine Sharky may make a formal announcement on the front page as well.

However it is probably unrealistic to expect every vendor to update their profile in, say, a single day, so I imagine there will be a short (e.g. two week) grace period to allow everyone to catch up.

I would add that while there is an obvious group of vendors who are well known to the membership and admin alike, there are also several whom we may not know / have forgotten about - e.g those who haven't posted for a long time - and ensuring this group are all aware of the new rules will not be so easy.

Meanwhile does anyone have any further comments before these go live?

 

[Directional]

sounds fair to me.

Presumably vendors can pay up to advertise, and can then start their own threads to discuss their products etc, a la ET?

T2W shouldn't sell itself short - if vendors want to advertise to the membership, thats fine - they stand to benefit, so they should also cough up to support the board. Providing they do this in an upfront & transparent manner - its the stealth advertising which is a bit lame.

 

[wasp]

So, whats the sign of a vendor to look out for? Not seen anything as yet?

 

[Sharky]

Now I'm back from hols, I'm going to action the changes this weekend hopefully. Stay tuned...

 

[neil]

sounds fair to me.

Presumably vendors can pay up to advertise, and can then start their own threads to discuss their products etc, a la ET?

T2W shouldn't sell itself short - if vendors want to advertise to the membership, thats fine - they stand to benefit, so they should also cough up to support the board. Providing they do this in an upfront & transparent manner - its the stealth advertising which is a bit lame.

Provided they pay up they could be put on the Commercial thread then all could comment ?
As Arb. says. it's the stealth advertisors one has to be alert for. The Mods. can then deal with any one they feel is a scammer.

 

[Sharky]

I've finally updated the site with the following changes:

- The site guidelines have been updated with the proposed changes discussed earlier in the thread. You can view the full site guidelines here: http://www.trade2win.com/boards/faq.php?faq=faq_site_guidelines#faq_item_site_guidelines
- The user profile page here: http://www.trade2win.com/boards/profile.php now has a new vendor drop-down select box. Anyone who has a commercial interest in selling/marketing their product or service to T2W members MUST declare this interest here.
- The registration page now has the vendor-drop select box.
- A vendor icon now appears beneath a members username in their posts.
This looks like:

By mousing over the icon you can see what type of vendor they are.

I'll be making a futher announcement in the T2W News forum shortly highlighting these changes and the need for existing members to acknowledge a commercial interest if they have one. Furthermore we'll do our best to contact anyone with an existing known commercial interest to make them aware of the changes to the site guidelines.

Please be aware changes to the site guidelines are now in effect and must be adhered to.