Directional
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Elite Trader have a model for identifying vendors and it would seem that vendors with a commercial interest are happy to be identified AND pay for the priveledge. Anything worth copying?
I'm all for seeing T2W benefit from vendors, as I'd like to be sure this site is around for the forseeable future.
I'm all for seeing T2W benefit from vendors, as I'd like to be sure this site is around for the forseeable future.
Arbitrageur, wrote:
I really couldn’t agree more, Arbitrageur.
Nothing like drumming up a bit of business if you ask me! Speaking of which, I’m left wondering if anyone here has seen this site: http://www.learn2trade.co.uk/ - it looks to me like it’s copybook stuff and I’d guess that these guys could make a real contribution to this site. Maybe, they could even give Naz and Mr Charts a run for their money? 🙂
But, hey! What do I know? Hell, maybe this is what this is all about? Is no one going to tell?
Cheers
Mayfly
I really couldn’t agree more, Arbitrageur.
Nothing like drumming up a bit of business if you ask me! Speaking of which, I’m left wondering if anyone here has seen this site: http://www.learn2trade.co.uk/ - it looks to me like it’s copybook stuff and I’d guess that these guys could make a real contribution to this site. Maybe, they could even give Naz and Mr Charts a run for their money? 🙂
But, hey! What do I know? Hell, maybe this is what this is all about? Is no one going to tell?
Cheers
Mayfly
dick_dastardly
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I don't know why some of you guys get so worked up about this issue. If you're all so clever at spotting these snakeoil salesmen then whats the problem. Just stay clear of them, like side stepping dogy doo doo when you walk down the street ( it's just another life skill ).
Besides, I find all these super traders posting Fanny Craddock trades ( "and here's one I made earlier" ) to be quite amusing.
At least BAT tried to call it live going forward.
errrrm, well, I think he kinda sorta did, didn't he ?
dd
Besides, I find all these super traders posting Fanny Craddock trades ( "and here's one I made earlier" ) to be quite amusing.
At least BAT tried to call it live going forward.
errrrm, well, I think he kinda sorta did, didn't he ?
dd
barjon
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For my two-penny-worth, I agree with frugi.
In my own view, laced a bit with comments I have received from other members, I think:
1. Commercial interest (to be defined) should be required to be identified in members' profiles.
2. A clear icon should be associated with members' nicknames as they appear in posts when clicking on the icon would link through to the "commercial interest" section in members' profiles. That would be enough, imo, to inform members and to allow them to check up easily on whether what is posted is likely or not to be affected by the poster's commercial interest.
3. I do not think threads started by members with commercial interest should go to a dedicated forum, mainly because I think it would fragment information. It would also be quite difficult to police properly since such members may well start threads wholly unconnected with their commercial interest..
4. However, I do think the idea of a dedicated "paid for" vendors forum which allowed advertising is one that has merit. Maybe a health warning attached to the forum so that members would know what to expect if they went into threads in that forum.
good trading
jon
In my own view, laced a bit with comments I have received from other members, I think:
1. Commercial interest (to be defined) should be required to be identified in members' profiles.
2. A clear icon should be associated with members' nicknames as they appear in posts when clicking on the icon would link through to the "commercial interest" section in members' profiles. That would be enough, imo, to inform members and to allow them to check up easily on whether what is posted is likely or not to be affected by the poster's commercial interest.
3. I do not think threads started by members with commercial interest should go to a dedicated forum, mainly because I think it would fragment information. It would also be quite difficult to police properly since such members may well start threads wholly unconnected with their commercial interest..
4. However, I do think the idea of a dedicated "paid for" vendors forum which allowed advertising is one that has merit. Maybe a health warning attached to the forum so that members would know what to expect if they went into threads in that forum.
good trading
jon
Racer
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dick_dastardly said:
Why should you have to sift through a lot of posts as a newbie only to find they weren't what you thought? A newbie to trading and indeed an oldbie, must be given a little help in this jungle of dog eat dog financial 'rip your throat out while I look at you' business!
dick_dastardly
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Racer said:
Anyone that's dumb enough to be taken for a ride by one of these snakeoil salesmen is probably too dumb to be trading in the first place.
They will most likely be eaten alive and excreted out by the markets anyway.
Either way, they get burned.
Coming to t2w and avoiding being ripped off by snakeoil salesmen is all part of the test.
dd
TheBramble
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Sharky, I don' think the issue was about advertising/not advertising. It was more to do with the obvious inequity of the situation. One or two members being allowed to freely mention their commercial website urls and email addresses for 'those interested' - while other members, even when providing commercial urls for 3rd parties and for which they had no financial interest themselves (AFAIAA) were jumped on, quite rightly under current guidelines, as normal. Even the mods seems confused. One deleting Alan's url in one post. Another mentioning it explicitly in his own post later.
The thing is, it's your site. You can choose whether to allow advertising or not. My personal view is that spam heaven isn't where anyone wants to be, but a designated forum for those members who have something to offer on a commercial basis already exists. It is the implicit or back-door sales which range from the subtle to the laughably clumsy on other threads that needs to be watched. It's OK to say we all know who they are and can steer clear. But who is 'we all'? Not the new members to this site. And these are precisely the ones at risk from getting in too deep before they've learned what they need to learn to make an informed decision about what services or products are going to be really useful to them..
Without any issue of bias or preferential advertising allowances on the thread he started, Alan can now get on to discuss his favourite topic of 'hot stocks' with other traders interested in this topic. How they select them and how they trade them without any pointless distractions about commercialism.
I may well start my own boring thread on how to trade really boring stocks using old fashioned methods and nothing very flashy at all. Stocks and methods that just go on, day after day, making money and are so boring you need to inject 500ml of nitroglycerine directly into your heart to avoid it stopping with sheer boredom. Wont suit everyone, just plain old making money everyday, but it might suit some. The thing is, I wouldn't need to wear a silver lame suit with frilled cuffs to do it.
The thing with hot stocks - and the danger for newbies, is that is precisely the image the gets many into the market in the first place. And precisely what takes so many out. 'Excessive' volatility is a wonderful thing - if you're on the right side of it. But it smacks of BS and all those things the old master told us to avoid - what 'the crowd' are doing, tips, what's hot, what's being talked about most in the brokerage office. Still horses for courses and I've slid off topic.
Sharky, it's your site - do what you want. It's been good - very good - so far. But whatever you decide, make it stick equally for all members. Please.
The thing is, it's your site. You can choose whether to allow advertising or not. My personal view is that spam heaven isn't where anyone wants to be, but a designated forum for those members who have something to offer on a commercial basis already exists. It is the implicit or back-door sales which range from the subtle to the laughably clumsy on other threads that needs to be watched. It's OK to say we all know who they are and can steer clear. But who is 'we all'? Not the new members to this site. And these are precisely the ones at risk from getting in too deep before they've learned what they need to learn to make an informed decision about what services or products are going to be really useful to them..
Without any issue of bias or preferential advertising allowances on the thread he started, Alan can now get on to discuss his favourite topic of 'hot stocks' with other traders interested in this topic. How they select them and how they trade them without any pointless distractions about commercialism.
I may well start my own boring thread on how to trade really boring stocks using old fashioned methods and nothing very flashy at all. Stocks and methods that just go on, day after day, making money and are so boring you need to inject 500ml of nitroglycerine directly into your heart to avoid it stopping with sheer boredom. Wont suit everyone, just plain old making money everyday, but it might suit some. The thing is, I wouldn't need to wear a silver lame suit with frilled cuffs to do it.
The thing with hot stocks - and the danger for newbies, is that is precisely the image the gets many into the market in the first place. And precisely what takes so many out. 'Excessive' volatility is a wonderful thing - if you're on the right side of it. But it smacks of BS and all those things the old master told us to avoid - what 'the crowd' are doing, tips, what's hot, what's being talked about most in the brokerage office. Still horses for courses and I've slid off topic.
Sharky, it's your site - do what you want. It's been good - very good - so far. But whatever you decide, make it stick equally for all members. Please.
I think the site benefits from the educational efforts of many providers of education/mentoring and other vendors so it would be useful if they still contributed. Their contribution is most useful if it is part of mainstream forum activity where other, non commercial, members actively add to the discusions. I don't think a special commercial forum is a good idea because
a) Other experts are less likely to read and contribute to debates
b) It may actually lead to an environment where a less expert vendor goes relatively unchallenged and finds protection under the guise of "Its my thread, about my methods so don't challenge me"
Vendors should be identified as such and not have to be subject to snide remarks and criticism simply for having a commercial interest.
However they should be prepared to receive criticism where they are simply providing "here's one I did earlier" without explaining the logic they applied clearly, or simply resorting to "come on my course to find out how I picked this winner" or "I applied my micro analysis at the point of entry, which I teach to all my students". This is a grey area so it should not be the job of the mods to judge this and manage it but vendors can not expect to go unchallenged by the membership as a whole. All such discussion should of course be polite and within site guidelines.
In my view the vendors here vary considerably in a) how much real teaching they give with their posts b) how sensitive they are to fairly valid criticism. I think they should be welcome to contribute actively in all forums. But guys (and girls?) if you want the free adverts then be prepared to defend yourself if your expertise comes under scrutiny.
So I think vendors should be identified with a warning such as "This member would like you to give them some of your money"
All other members should carry the warning "This member wants to take all your money from you in the markets"
Gareth
a) Other experts are less likely to read and contribute to debates
b) It may actually lead to an environment where a less expert vendor goes relatively unchallenged and finds protection under the guise of "Its my thread, about my methods so don't challenge me"
Vendors should be identified as such and not have to be subject to snide remarks and criticism simply for having a commercial interest.
However they should be prepared to receive criticism where they are simply providing "here's one I did earlier" without explaining the logic they applied clearly, or simply resorting to "come on my course to find out how I picked this winner" or "I applied my micro analysis at the point of entry, which I teach to all my students". This is a grey area so it should not be the job of the mods to judge this and manage it but vendors can not expect to go unchallenged by the membership as a whole. All such discussion should of course be polite and within site guidelines.
In my view the vendors here vary considerably in a) how much real teaching they give with their posts b) how sensitive they are to fairly valid criticism. I think they should be welcome to contribute actively in all forums. But guys (and girls?) if you want the free adverts then be prepared to defend yourself if your expertise comes under scrutiny.
So I think vendors should be identified with a warning such as "This member would like you to give them some of your money"
All other members should carry the warning "This member wants to take all your money from you in the markets"
Gareth
hornblower
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On ADVFN you are not allowed to post links and mention other site
it has become a very boring and uninteresting site
and I look at it less and less
do we want trade 2 win to go the same way ??
it has become a very boring and uninteresting site
and I look at it less and less
do we want trade 2 win to go the same way ??
Yes.barjon said:
IMHO, posts by coaches (1-2-1, seminar, or otherwise), tip sheet salesmen, web site operators, system and other snake oil pushers, book salesmen and all other commercial posters lurking in the general boards ought also carry such warnings.
Is there any particular reason why such contributors should not in any event pay a fee for their advertising? If they did the proceeds could be put towards further improvements to an already good resource. If they would not pay up they could always go elsewhere (if they could find anywhere else to go).
Just my two cents worth.
hornblower
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levii
i do like the bit about the snake oil pushers
regards
hornblower
i do like the bit about the snake oil pushers
regards
hornblower
Trader333
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sandpiper said:
Mayfly / Sandpiper,
I should make it clear that I no longer offer coaching and havent done for a long time now and you have reminded me that I ought to shut the site down. That said I never advertised or mentioned what I offered on T2W and always tried to keep it entirely separate from any contributions I have made on these boards.
Paul
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Paul,Trader333 said:
Unless the site is costing you money to keep, may I suggest you leave it as the videos etc are an excellent example of a couple of breakout trades and a fine illustration of a Grey1 type VWAP pairs trade (even though you do use level 2)
There are many here who could likely benefit from spending 30 minutes watching them.
Regards
LII
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Humble input
Sometime back, I joined this site. Wanted to be a daytrader. Found a snakeoil salesman on this site who was happy to take my money, I tell you, the snake oil cost me far more than the extortionate fee I paid! It took me off in the wrong direction, a bit of time to recover, lost a ton. I'm sure many of you will laugh at how gullible I was but then I was pure rookie thinking everyone here seemed like Mr or Mrs good guy/gal, nothing to indicate a problem, in fact the opposite, glowing tributes and back slapping, the lot! For a long time I wouldn't come near T2W again, thought it was full of charlatans. I know better now, there are some good folks here!
Go to the other end of this issue. What is the objective for this site, get it absolutely clear and defined. Then it will be easier to see which action is in-line with the objective and which isn't. Oh, and by the way, look at it from the rookie's angle if you can, they need the most help and guidance, not steered towards the snakeoil vendors. Don't forget my real experience either. I've heard positive comments made about one of these people who I know not to be a good coach/teacher, certainly not in my view (and I've been a teacher in another field, doesn't mean I'm any good either btw). I'm sure other ex-rookies have views but are too embarrassed to have a say.
Bit for the rookies. For any rookie reading this, do not assume that because someone has a high profile here that you will be getting value for money, I made that mistake! One or two days so-called training will in no way prepare you to survive in the market, in any market! Read every book you can, take time to find those gems in here who are genuinely willing to help at no cost and stay close to them, their objective is clearly to help you, not at all to take your money!
Sorry it seems bitter and heavy, especially since I've made so few posts, I promise I'm not normally like this but the subject brought back bad memories of my early exposure to T2W. Possibly this post doesn't belong here in its entirety, maybe I should be struck up, lol. Anyway only good intentions are meant.
Sometime back, I joined this site. Wanted to be a daytrader. Found a snakeoil salesman on this site who was happy to take my money, I tell you, the snake oil cost me far more than the extortionate fee I paid! It took me off in the wrong direction, a bit of time to recover, lost a ton. I'm sure many of you will laugh at how gullible I was but then I was pure rookie thinking everyone here seemed like Mr or Mrs good guy/gal, nothing to indicate a problem, in fact the opposite, glowing tributes and back slapping, the lot! For a long time I wouldn't come near T2W again, thought it was full of charlatans. I know better now, there are some good folks here!
Go to the other end of this issue. What is the objective for this site, get it absolutely clear and defined. Then it will be easier to see which action is in-line with the objective and which isn't. Oh, and by the way, look at it from the rookie's angle if you can, they need the most help and guidance, not steered towards the snakeoil vendors. Don't forget my real experience either. I've heard positive comments made about one of these people who I know not to be a good coach/teacher, certainly not in my view (and I've been a teacher in another field, doesn't mean I'm any good either btw). I'm sure other ex-rookies have views but are too embarrassed to have a say.
Bit for the rookies. For any rookie reading this, do not assume that because someone has a high profile here that you will be getting value for money, I made that mistake! One or two days so-called training will in no way prepare you to survive in the market, in any market! Read every book you can, take time to find those gems in here who are genuinely willing to help at no cost and stay close to them, their objective is clearly to help you, not at all to take your money!
Sorry it seems bitter and heavy, especially since I've made so few posts, I promise I'm not normally like this but the subject brought back bad memories of my early exposure to T2W. Possibly this post doesn't belong here in its entirety, maybe I should be struck up, lol. Anyway only good intentions are meant.
As JackJ says above.....there are a lot of new people coming to this site all of the time, there seems to be quite a high membership but not such a high number of actively posting members, couple this with the nature of trading & what you have is a ready made audience for anyone wanting to use this as an advertising medium.
new posts by new members with a hint of advertising quickly get jumped upon...yet as long as i have been looking at this board there has been a series of threads , not highlighted as , but clearly 'dangling carrots' run by 'coaches/trainers'.........if someone wants to genuinly Help.....they will help!.....if someone wants to just impress they will tend more toward the '' look what I just did.....here's one I did earlier''.
it is none of my business what this website does & makes no odds to me if this never changes, but I am entitled to my opinion I believe & as JackJ says.....it is the new inexperienced people coming to this site that I would imagine are going to be the most affected by this & this site should regard these new members with as much respect as they do the older one's....if they should have any at all
Jay
new posts by new members with a hint of advertising quickly get jumped upon...yet as long as i have been looking at this board there has been a series of threads , not highlighted as , but clearly 'dangling carrots' run by 'coaches/trainers'.........if someone wants to genuinly Help.....they will help!.....if someone wants to just impress they will tend more toward the '' look what I just did.....here's one I did earlier''.
it is none of my business what this website does & makes no odds to me if this never changes, but I am entitled to my opinion I believe & as JackJ says.....it is the new inexperienced people coming to this site that I would imagine are going to be the most affected by this & this site should regard these new members with as much respect as they do the older one's....if they should have any at all
Jay
I don't want to get into the argument about coaches per se. However ,in response to the posts immediately above. It should be clear ,starkly clear, that the common mistake is that people come into this field with a preconception ,or expectation that experience in this profession will be easier to come by than other comparable professions. Pothole 1 into which they will fall and which it will cost them quite a lot of money to climb out of. In large letters it should be printed for them to take their time ,conserve their resources whilst they apply themselves to acquiring experience. Dump the false preconceptions and expectations.
Learning from others is a valuable resource ,but we are really now talking about who those others are and how they may be recognised. It would be good actually if a site tlike this that wishes to open the door to coaches carried out some due diligence prior to letting them in. Simple enough to do at least in part. Trading statements and certified accounts would be a good place to start to show that they are at least practicing profitably for themselves what they intend to teach others. The second element and perhaps more difficult is do they know how to teach what they know ? I'll leave that one to someone else to consider.
Learning from others is a valuable resource ,but we are really now talking about who those others are and how they may be recognised. It would be good actually if a site tlike this that wishes to open the door to coaches carried out some due diligence prior to letting them in. Simple enough to do at least in part. Trading statements and certified accounts would be a good place to start to show that they are at least practicing profitably for themselves what they intend to teach others. The second element and perhaps more difficult is do they know how to teach what they know ? I'll leave that one to someone else to consider.
Danger Field
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The Proof of the Pudding
Putting the onus on the site administration to vet vendors' products and services is not a workable solution. They are not here for that.
The only true test of any product of service is recommendation. Why not have a thread dedicated to discussions on the various products and services offered, perhaps even a thread for each one, why not.
Those members that have use or have used the product or service can then post away.
There is no guarantee everyone who has received the product or service will post. And human nature being what it is there is every possibility of those unhappy will be more motivated to post than those who are deliriously happy.
I can not see why any vendor would object to this as if they or their product is any good, it can only serve to amplify their revenues and benefit the membership in general.
As I think about it now, I believe this should be a mandatory for all vendors. Out in the open with public response from those who have direct experience of them/their product/their service.
For those that would counter about personalities getting in the way, where personality is a part of the service (mentoring/coaching/teaching etc.) it is as vital a component of the package as anything else and should be considered. Obviously the moderators would have to ensure suitable decorum was maintained at all times so it would be in the interests of those with any axe to grind to do so politely and factually rather than emotionally or rudely.
Putting the onus on the site administration to vet vendors' products and services is not a workable solution. They are not here for that.
The only true test of any product of service is recommendation. Why not have a thread dedicated to discussions on the various products and services offered, perhaps even a thread for each one, why not.
Those members that have use or have used the product or service can then post away.
There is no guarantee everyone who has received the product or service will post. And human nature being what it is there is every possibility of those unhappy will be more motivated to post than those who are deliriously happy.
I can not see why any vendor would object to this as if they or their product is any good, it can only serve to amplify their revenues and benefit the membership in general.
As I think about it now, I believe this should be a mandatory for all vendors. Out in the open with public response from those who have direct experience of them/their product/their service.
For those that would counter about personalities getting in the way, where personality is a part of the service (mentoring/coaching/teaching etc.) it is as vital a component of the package as anything else and should be considered. Obviously the moderators would have to ensure suitable decorum was maintained at all times so it would be in the interests of those with any axe to grind to do so politely and factually rather than emotionally or rudely.
