Pitscum said:
===============================================================
I agree with you 100 %
Thats why i'm an option writer and most are buyers.
I recieve payments from the buyers! But when the buyers win?! We [the writers] are happy to pay up!
to keep them [the buyers] sweet! and they come back again and lose all their winnings! Just like what happens in the bookies, casino, SB firms etc. your winnings is just a temporary loan to keep you coming back! :cheesy: Bull
Stockjunkie
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No , no , no .
Completely wrong and a classic newbie mistake .
So what if the MM quotes far away from the market price ? so what ? Are you bound and gagged and forced to take the price ? no !
If you don't like , leave it ! does one have so little self control that one cannot resist that ?
Also , I said many many times the socalled bias can work AGAINST the MM.
They may quote far off and they may be WRONG ! market may be 5035 . MM quote 5020/22 . You are very convinced market going up - what do you do ??? ding ding wake up time to put that fragile ego to use .
give you a hint ..... B U Y , and use risk control please. if you are right ,you would have gotten 12 points head start ! So sometimes MM out quotes can be GOOD .
Another eg) same figures , but this time you think the market going to fall by much more than a piddly 12 point . what do you do ? that bell again ? I leave this blank as a test to all you wannabe elites , see if you can grasp this most simple yet vital concept .
Completely wrong and a classic newbie mistake .
So what if the MM quotes far away from the market price ? so what ? Are you bound and gagged and forced to take the price ? no !
If you don't like , leave it ! does one have so little self control that one cannot resist that ?
Also , I said many many times the socalled bias can work AGAINST the MM.
They may quote far off and they may be WRONG ! market may be 5035 . MM quote 5020/22 . You are very convinced market going up - what do you do ??? ding ding wake up time to put that fragile ego to use .
give you a hint ..... B U Y , and use risk control please. if you are right ,you would have gotten 12 points head start ! So sometimes MM out quotes can be GOOD .
Another eg) same figures , but this time you think the market going to fall by much more than a piddly 12 point . what do you do ? that bell again ? I leave this blank as a test to all you wannabe elites , see if you can grasp this most simple yet vital concept .
Stockjunkie said:
Are we to assume that traders are so dumb that this is not blatantly obvious. Anyone who had not grasped this before the post should give up trading.
Why are people continually griping about perceived skewed prices, this should be turned into a very big advantage. How I wish the firms I use were that generous.
Stockjunkie
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If it was so obvious then the poster would not have asked the Q in post #1.
I can't speak for anyone else but I have taken advantage of wrongly biased pricing by SBs many many times . Maybe you have not been sharp enough at the time to spot it , and I use the phone which not many like to o .
I can't speak for anyone else but I have taken advantage of wrongly biased pricing by SBs many many times . Maybe you have not been sharp enough at the time to spot it , and I use the phone which not many like to o .
When people talk about arbitrage, what is meant by it? Company A has a quote for the DOW of 10398 - 10402 and Company B has a quote of 10417 - 10421. There is no need to wonder why the quotes are different and why one has a bias to the downside/upside; neither is there any need to complain about a skewing of prices.
The next step is quite simple, buy with Company A and sell with Company B for a profit of 15 points. Such opportunities are few and far between as the MarketMakers and Spread Betting companies are not charitable organisations. Too many people complain about perceived price bias and very often it is either non existent or the case of a at most 1 or 2 points; hardly enough to make the difference between being a winner or a loser.
How many rational individuals would join a poker game when they know that they would be playing with a marked deck?
The next step is quite simple, buy with Company A and sell with Company B for a profit of 15 points. Such opportunities are few and far between as the MarketMakers and Spread Betting companies are not charitable organisations. Too many people complain about perceived price bias and very often it is either non existent or the case of a at most 1 or 2 points; hardly enough to make the difference between being a winner or a loser.
How many rational individuals would join a poker game when they know that they would be playing with a marked deck?
Stockjunkie
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no wrong , not what I am talking about , nothing to do with arb .
The correct answer to my Q is sell if you think the market is going down as the out quote will give you a 12 point head start . Simple .
The correct answer to my Q is sell if you think the market is going down as the out quote will give you a 12 point head start . Simple .
The title of this thread is >> 90% of traders are losers. :!:
Can you guys plz bring this discussion back on track!
Why are over 80% of traders losers? and this goe's on every year!? This surely cant be good news for brokers and of course traders!?
My question is this:
Can the traders get better at trading more profitably or are these statistics fixed at the disadvantage to the traders!??? 80-90 % losers seems very high.
Whats more amazing to me is, that theres so much material out there and the internet wiv all the helpful stuff and also those other helpfull tools> Elliot waves, Gann, fibs,seminars, books and more books etc and still NO improvements on the percentage of losers!
I also noticed that more than 90 % of members here are SB punters. Does this say something?
E-mail>> [email protected]
Bull
Can you guys plz bring this discussion back on track!
Why are over 80% of traders losers? and this goe's on every year!? This surely cant be good news for brokers and of course traders!?
My question is this:
Can the traders get better at trading more profitably or are these statistics fixed at the disadvantage to the traders!??? 80-90 % losers seems very high.
Whats more amazing to me is, that theres so much material out there and the internet wiv all the helpful stuff and also those other helpfull tools> Elliot waves, Gann, fibs,seminars, books and more books etc and still NO improvements on the percentage of losers!
I also noticed that more than 90 % of members here are SB punters.
Does this say something? E-mail>> [email protected]
Bull
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roguetrader
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Personally, I don't know that the failure rate is really that high at all given the requirements to meet the common designation "Trader". Now when I say that, it is not the figure that I dispute, but rather its relative context in relation to anything.
I think most would agree that there is a reasonable degree of difficulty in trading. The possession of certain attributes and character traits will make some more likely to succeed, while making others totally unsuitable. Yet the bottom line is that anybody can set up an account, flip a few stocks, or whatever, and meet a common designation as a trader. In such an instance any profession or skill with a reasonable degree of difficulty would yield a high % failure rate.
The vast majority of participants have no formal training in what they are trying to do and therefore have to learn by trial and error. In this business error costs money, and since in my experience most participants are under-capitalized to start with, the learning experience is usually quite sufficient to put most out of business long before they have completed it.
If there were any sort of formal education and selection process, 50 or 60% of those would never get to the stage of trading, which would alter the figures somewhat.
So no, no surprises here at all.
I think most would agree that there is a reasonable degree of difficulty in trading. The possession of certain attributes and character traits will make some more likely to succeed, while making others totally unsuitable. Yet the bottom line is that anybody can set up an account, flip a few stocks, or whatever, and meet a common designation as a trader. In such an instance any profession or skill with a reasonable degree of difficulty would yield a high % failure rate.
The vast majority of participants have no formal training in what they are trying to do and therefore have to learn by trial and error. In this business error costs money, and since in my experience most participants are under-capitalized to start with, the learning experience is usually quite sufficient to put most out of business long before they have completed it.
If there were any sort of formal education and selection process, 50 or 60% of those would never get to the stage of trading, which would alter the figures somewhat.
So no, no surprises here at all.
The worst time to enter a trade is often when it is most obvious. Many,traders are caught in these initial false moves We have a certain percentage of our trades that will work out, and a certain percentage that will not. But your next trade has nothing to do with your last one. So even if you have the world's most accurate method, over time you will go broke if you don't practice good money management and risk control.
One of the reasons for the high rate of failure is the fact that trading is a zero sum game. As such, it stands to reason that the better market participants will take a very large slice of the cake; the average trader will make a small return on capital and the rest will nurse losses.
Add to that the fact that following the crowd does not really help in the long run as it will really depend on when one jumps on and off. This in itself might not seem relevant until one adds undercapitalisation, bad money management and inexperience to the equation and then it has a devastating effect.
We have all seen individuals that one month trade currencies, the next oil and then stock indices; how are they going to make money on a continuos basis? It is difficult enough following and then trying to master one type of market yet alone three or four.
The failure rate and loss making statistics are not confined to individual traders, one only has to look at the returns made by hedge funds, unit trusts, mutual funds and pension funds etc. to note that the majority also lose money. The worst bunch are the index trackers who lose money anytime the markets are in negative territory.
Add to that the fact that following the crowd does not really help in the long run as it will really depend on when one jumps on and off. This in itself might not seem relevant until one adds undercapitalisation, bad money management and inexperience to the equation and then it has a devastating effect.
We have all seen individuals that one month trade currencies, the next oil and then stock indices; how are they going to make money on a continuos basis? It is difficult enough following and then trying to master one type of market yet alone three or four.
The failure rate and loss making statistics are not confined to individual traders, one only has to look at the returns made by hedge funds, unit trusts, mutual funds and pension funds etc. to note that the majority also lose money. The worst bunch are the index trackers who lose money anytime the markets are in negative territory.
Thanx guys for your contributions.
We know that money does not vanish into thin air! So there has to be WINNERS somewhere!
So if 90 % are losers and only 10 % are winners!? What is it that those 10 % have that the remaider dont have? We also know that there are 2 other types of winners that win every week/month and year in and year out! and thats the brokers and the M-Mkrs.
To have the edge on the rest of the players you have to focus/ find which derivative suits you best and that you can become good at and improve on.
I have found the one that i like and droped the rest! I have improved on my choice and managed to obtain the advantage and capitalize on it. I can tell you its NOT S-betting.
I have closed my SB account [over 10 yrs ago] altogether cause i new it was a losing game. I now trade wiv UK based brokers wiv margins rules thats suits my choice of trading.
e-mail [email protected]
Bull
We know that money does not vanish into thin air! So there has to be WINNERS somewhere!
So if 90 % are losers and only 10 % are winners!? What is it that those 10 % have that the remaider dont have? We also know that there are 2 other types of winners that win every week/month and year in and year out! and thats the brokers and the M-Mkrs.
To have the edge on the rest of the players you have to focus/ find which derivative suits you best and that you can become good at and improve on.
I have found the one that i like and droped the rest! I have improved on my choice and managed to obtain the advantage and capitalize on it. I can tell you its NOT S-betting.
I have closed my SB account [over 10 yrs ago] altogether cause i new it was a losing game. I now trade wiv UK based brokers wiv margins rules thats suits my choice of trading.
e-mail [email protected]
Bull
Just my view, 86% lose --10% break even ---4% make consistant profits from the 86%
and it takes work and more work and study and more study-- and lost money ---and time ! (several years )
to arrive at the 4% level .
most give up, or go bust, as this is a long hard road, and they do not want to put in the work !
Regards to all Twiglet
and it takes work and more work and study and more study-- and lost money ---and time ! (several years )
to arrive at the 4% level .
most give up, or go bust, as this is a long hard road, and they do not want to put in the work !
Regards to all Twiglet
====================================================================twiggytwo said:
WOW
Twig, it goes from bad to worse
Most peeps think that there is only about 10/20 % winners
What keeps these punters going? is it the enjoyment from being active trading or is it an addiction or a combination of both? or is it that they believe they can make the 4 % of winners.
Its a little wonder why there is so many SB firms around. When i first started there was only about 2. I was wiv IG index.
Bull
[email protected]
Bulldozer,
It is a known fact that only 3% of gamblers manage to make a living from it but take a trip to Las Vegas, Atlantic City or to the local betting shop and you will be forgiven for thinking that they are the answer to the poor men's prayers. Nevertheless, he always returns and more often than not, with a half baked plan to beat the house. Ask him what the odds are of a certain bet paying off and he does not have a clue. Ask him what his backup plan is and he will probably tell you that safety nets are for whimps.
Is it any wonder that many view the financial markets in the same way and adopt the same approach. They all talk about Warren Buffet, Jesse Livermore, George Soros, Joe Lewis etc. and because they have read a few paperbacks believe that they will go from rags to riches.
The greatest teacher of all times once said - "He who would be a master must first be a servant."
It is a known fact that only 3% of gamblers manage to make a living from it but take a trip to Las Vegas, Atlantic City or to the local betting shop and you will be forgiven for thinking that they are the answer to the poor men's prayers. Nevertheless, he always returns and more often than not, with a half baked plan to beat the house. Ask him what the odds are of a certain bet paying off and he does not have a clue. Ask him what his backup plan is and he will probably tell you that safety nets are for whimps.
Is it any wonder that many view the financial markets in the same way and adopt the same approach. They all talk about Warren Buffet, Jesse Livermore, George Soros, Joe Lewis etc. and because they have read a few paperbacks believe that they will go from rags to riches.
The greatest teacher of all times once said - "He who would be a master must first be a servant."
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========================================================LION63 said:
Lion,
Totally agree wiv U!
But its a bloody expansive lesson!
:cheesy: Bull
[email protected]
SOCRATES
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I always find it very entertaining to hear people talking of "playing the market" as if it were some sort of lottery. Very funny. And this comment usually emanates from people who are otherwise sensible and responsible.LION63 said:
But your last sentence is a real corker.
People condemn themselves to their vision of playing just by ignoring just that simple statement.
time to laugh
Hi Bull, If at first you don't succeed, try and try again.
Then give up. There's no sense in being a damned fool about it.
W. C. Fields
hope this makes you laugh
Regards twiglet
bulldozer said:====================================================================
WOW
Twig, it goes from bad to worse
Most peeps think that there is only about 10/20 % winners
What keeps these punters going? is it the enjoyment from being active trading or is it an addiction or a combination of both? or is it that they believe they can make the 4 % of winners.
Its a little wonder why there is so many SB firms around. When i first started there was only about 2. I was wiv IG index.
Bull
[email protected]
Hi Bull, If at first you don't succeed, try and try again.
Then give up. There's no sense in being a damned fool about it.
W. C. Fields
hope this makes you laugh
Regards twiglet
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