100 trades

[wallstreetwarrior87]

Another way of looking at it. What are near all losing / be (80%) traders looking for? A method most likely. By the same token, how many of those would consider that they might need to work on themselves psychologically? Im guessing not very many.
Trading imo, shouldnt be a mind fk, it should be as easy on the mind as trading demo. If not then maybe the trader hasnt accepted the risk, has trouble being 'wrong' or some whatever else that i havent quite got my arms around yet.

fascinating stuff for me man.

Ramble ramble.

If people accept that this business is bl***y hard and can be really honest about that fact, then they may progress. A few hours here, a few hours there "staring" at a screen will NOT help.

The best thread at the moment IHMO is http://www.trade2win.com/boards/dis...w-do-we-identify-them-why-13.html#post2270526 , Shakone has tried to resurrect it, but there are not many takers. Why? Simple - its too hard to work out, we want quick fix answers, and we dont really want to admit that we may need to actually understand the markets to really make it pay.

It still baffles me as to how any trader can take a trade when they are unable to define value. This is the same in any business, but again we want to believe that trading is somehow different, and we can take a short cut.

So next time you are looking at a chart "watching the action" ask yourself;

Why did price break through, why did it form a lower high, why did it get volatile etc.

Just ask why!

Too many avoid doing this, and would rather just stick a stop at 10pts and target at 20pts and see what happens. Whats more, these same people seriously consider this a way to make a living.

To be blunt, get real, this not easy, it involves a whole host of skills that we dont all possess, and will affect our bottom line (results).

I have many friends (academic) who can not accept uncertainty, that there are no fixed parameters, as markets are moved emotionally. They are not suited to day trading. This does not mean they can not be in the business, as they would make great researchers, IT developers etc, but we all have our own place in this game.

Rule number 1 - if you can not explain why you are taking the trade and why it should play out and how it should play out then dont trade.

Others will disagree, and that's fine, they will just play the percentage game, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Just remember there are very few who have the required patience and discipline to play the percentage game, and they also have a foundation of logic to base their trading decisions.

Its just not that easy

 

[malaguti]

Ive always, well i think ive always seen myself as a 'fearless trader'. After reviewing my journal caused in part by what imo was a poor public performance, its obvious that when im cold, im trading scared. Hard to admit to myself!
After taking a beating (and this can be anything the traders the sees personally as a beating. £ loss/ being wrong / being wong in public :whistling / win~loss ratio etc etc etc) then the one thing that will save him is a calm, rational, objective mindset, that help evaluate and get him to plate, to do it all again.

but does the book actually take you from being scared to being fearless. anyone can write "don't be scared" but it will never stop you from being scared. Method will.
My problem with the book, other than the fact that I'm with cablemonster jr, is that it talks about the psychology but does nothing in my view with regard to practically helping you overcome these demons.
we can all write about the markets in abstract terms, my view is the book is just another non-practical shelf bracket but just comes from a different angle but still does nothing to help an ailing trader.
Unless of course I missed the self help instructions..which I don't think I did when I first went through it many years ago.
I guess its what you were able to glean from it though, and fair play to anyone who can..your good self included

 

[darktone]

but does the book actually take you from being scared to being fearless. anyone can write "don't be scared" but it will never stop you from being scared.Method will.

The book as i understand it so far attempts to reveal to the reader what the market actually is, more importantly what that information means to you personally. It also stresses the importance of acceptance. Acceptance that anything can happen at any 'now moment' as he terms it . Acceptance that distribution of edges is random.
Now take the trader who accepts this (by that i mean totally believes it, not just says it or whacks it on a postit)
1) according to my method its time to buy but i accept fully that anything can happen next.
2) regardless of the last 10 straight loses i will buy, because i fully accept that the distribution of winners and losers is random. That the outcome of this trade is no way related any other
3) As i have fully accepted the risk of what i am doing I am able to see the information (price for me, might be other for you)in this unique now moment the market is giving me in a non threatening way, i can remain calm and act as needed in my own best interests on the opportunities the market gives me, inline with my method.

Im still straightening this stuff out but its the best i got in this 'now moment' . It would be difficult for the guy who truly thinks like this to be scared whilst executing his trades imo.

If you want an example of where method didnt manage fear click here
Its all to easy to excuse this sorta stuff as 'im only human' etc. Much more testing to investigate the underlying reason of why it happened.

My problem with the book, other than the fact that I'm with cablemonster jr, is that it talks about the psychology but does nothing in my view with regard to practically helping you overcome these demons.
we can all write about the markets in abstract terms, my view is the book is just another non-practical shelf bracket but just comes from a different angle but still does nothing to help an ailing trader.
Unless of course I missed the self help instructions..which I don't think I did when I first went through it many years ago.
I guess its what you were able to glean from it though, and fair play to anyone who can..your good self included

As far as 'does the book show you how to change beliefs' etc, I dunno, it does to me, but maybe i got the jump on some because ive already worked on myself psychologically, i already have the tools and the open mindset to implement this stuff. Perhaps more importantly, i have an awareness of the power of beliefs / thoughts etc.


You know, and bare with me cos its likely gona sound pretty stupid, if what ive just written comes over as bollox, write the following on a piece of paper. (my brief take on your beliefs towards the book)
1) Good method takes away the fear.
2) Ive got a problem with the book.
3) Writing stuff down cant change what i believe.
4) This book cant help me in a practical way.

Put the piece of paper over your eyes then ask someone else to bring a random object to you, hold in front of your face and ask you what it is? If you cant see object, it could be because you be being made blind by your current beliefs.

This might sound like p1sstaking, but literally just now, i did a similar kind of thing with my daughter, for the first time ever i was able to communicate the idea to her. Thats ground breaking sh1t in this house i tell u

 

[PieterSteidelmayer]

For what it's worth I spent my early career as a cognitive psychologist and there is no doubt that psychology comes from competence within context. If you're good at something and you do it well, you're psychology will be just fine. No amount of trying to make your psychology fit your desired outcome will work. It just doesn't work that way round. It will just cause depression, frustration and emotional turmoil. When it comes to trading it'll also cause loss of money.

Think of anything that you're good at and enjoy doing; did you have to specifically set a psychological mindset to achieve that; a list of rules and dos and don'ts? No, of course not.

 

[darktone]

For what it's worth I spent my early career as a cognitive psychologist and there is no doubt that psychology comes from competence within context. If you're good at something and you do it well, you're psychology will be just fine. No amount of trying to make your psychology fit your desired outcome will work. It just doesn't work that way round. It will just cause depression, frustration and emotional turmoil. When it comes to trading it'll also cause loss of money.

Think of anything that you're good at and enjoy doing; did you have to specifically set a psychological mindset to achieve that; a list of rules and dos and don'ts? No, of course not.

I have to confess i find those comments 'surprising' coming from a cognitive psychologist.
How would you approach a tennis player who loves playing tennis but chokes whenever they play a game point? You have seen first hand that his game play is amazing next to his peers, more so when just knocking up.
What would look for first?

 

[PieterSteidelmayer]

I have to confess i find those comments 'surprising' coming from a cognitive psychologist.
How would you approach a tennis player who loves playing tennis but chokes whenever they play a game point? You have seen first hand that his game play is amazing next to his peers, more so when just knocking up.
What would look for first?

I have added emphasis to your comment to underline my point. You're talking about someone who has raw talent and has a small flaw in his end game. Not someone who is mediocre or quite simply useless that wants to play like a pro and thinks mind games or a good coach or a popular psych-book is all that's required.

The raw talent needs to be there first - you can't grow that from books or mentors.

There are techniques that would help an already gifted talent in any endeavour, but these would be no help to those who do not already posses the talent.

 

[darktone]

I have added emphasis to your comment to underline my point. You're talking about someone who has raw talent and has a small flaw in his end game. Not someone who is mediocre or quite simply useless that wants to play like a pro and thinks mind games or a good coach or a popular psych-book is all that's required.

The raw talent needs to be there first - you can't grow that from books or mentors.

There are techniques that would help an already gifted talent in any endeavour, but these would be no help to those who do not already posses the talent.

Thankyou, youve just told me all i need to know.

 

[barjon]

but does the book actually take you from being scared to being fearless. anyone can write "don't be scared" but it will never stop you from being scared. Method will.
My problem with the book, other than the fact that I'm with cablemonster jr, is that it talks about the psychology but does nothing in my view with regard to practically helping you overcome these demons.
we can all write about the markets in abstract terms, my view is the book is just another non-practical shelf bracket but just comes from a different angle but still does nothing to help an ailing trader.
Unless of course I missed the self help instructions..which I don't think I did when I first went through it many years ago.
I guess its what you were able to glean from it though, and fair play to anyone who can..your good self included

mmm, I think you need to recognise your demons - honestly - and build your method to cater for them. Work with them than rather try to change them

For example: If you can't take a loss when you should, stick a hard stop in. If you can't stop yourself expanding your hard stop, close your platform down.

 

[darktone]

mmm, I think you need to recognise your demons - honestly - and build your method to cater for them. Work with them than rather try to change them

For example: If you can't take a loss when you should, stick a hard stop in. If you can't stop yourself expanding your hard stop, close your platform down.

I dunno Jon. Ive spent a lot of time trying to fit my expectations to the market, to find a degree of certainty in uncertainty.
If one of the demons is 'I need to be right'. Then ur gona have a tough time.

I think its a better bet to try and understand and accept as best you can what it is that your dealing with (the market). Then adjust / change your unrealistic beliefs.

 

[sonofcablemonster]

If you can't take a loss when you should, stick a hard stop in. If you can't stop yourself expanding your hard stop, close your platform down.

Here I fixed it for you. If you can't take a loss when you should then close down your platform, turn off the machine and format the hard drive. Get a job and don't trade again you will never be consistently profitable. :whistling

 

[piggybridges]

Being unable to take losses/lacking discipline etc etc didn't seem to be issue that the OP had at all, though. Or purplebrain for that matter.

Rather, along with 95% of the forum, it was a lack of an 'edge'?

No amount of psychology can make up for calling the market wrong all of the time.

 

[malaguti]

mmm, I think you need to recognise your demons - honestly - and build your method to cater for them. Work with them than rather try to change them

For example: If you can't take a loss when you should, stick a hard stop in. If you can't stop yourself expanding your hard stop, close your platform down.

agree, but this is the problem I have with the book (the subject really, rather than the book itself). What you have just done is actually come up with something that is specific to a "demon". Dare I say it, a method for that demon.
The book never really attempts to help, other than say "recognise your demons"..which doesn't really help anybody.
OK, recognised, now what..oh here's a big chapter on money management like we haven't heard it a thousand times already.

Start with a method and find one that has that edge, and you will be extremely surprised how you're now not second guessing anymore, not taking profits early anymore when the positive expectancy of your method, is reinforced with your actual trading results.
rather than, "get a positive mental attitude"; OK check; now balance that positive mental attitude with poor inconsistent results. very different ball game in my opinion.
I don't want to take anything from you Darktone, you've read the book and got something from it. I didn't and yes it could have been my own belief system from your (inspiring) analogy earlier, but now with a method behind me, suddenly I have no desire to go near a book on psychology again, yet I know my demons are still there.
This is all very deep for a sunday night..and my rant over!
always good conversation mind..none of this is supposed to be mine is better than yours as it were or confrontational. just discussion.

 

[darktone]

Being unable to take losses/lacking discipline etc etc didn't seem to be issue that the OP had at all, though. Or purplebrain for that matter.

Rather, along with 95% of the forum, it was a lack of an 'edge'?

No amount of psychology can make up for calling the market wrong all of the time.

No, but psychology can certainly keep you out of the market when you should be getting involved, as It can have bearing on what you view as a 'good' method.

 

[sonofcablemonster]

Being unable to take losses/lacking discipline etc etc didn't seem to be issue that the OP had at all, though. Or purplebrain for that matter.

Rather, along with 95% of the forum, it was a lack of an 'edge'?

No amount of psychology can make up for calling the market wrong all of the time.

Exactly piggy. The guy journaled 100 trades on a forum. I don't think discipline is the issue from the information presented.

 

[darktone]

always good conversation mind..none of this is supposed to be mine is better than yours as it were or confrontational. just discussion.

Agreed, Its goto be more productive than hand bagging
Cheers man

 

[barjon]

.............If one of the demons is 'I need to be right'. Then ur gona have a tough time...............

Well, if you turn that round to "I hate being wrong" then it then it helps to remove all evidence of it from the screen as soon as possible. That should encourage taking losses quickly

 

[barjon]

Here I fixed it for you. If you can't take a loss when you should then close down your platform, turn off the machine and format the hard drive. Get a job and don't trade again you will never be consistently profitable. :whistling

Then turn it back on in a few months and like Darvas find you've made a small fortune.

 

[darktone]

Well, if you turn that round to "I hate being wrong" then it then it helps to remove all evidence of it from the screen as soon as possible. That should encourage taking losses quickly

I give up. But just for tonight.


Gnight scumbags!

 

[barjon]

nite, darktone

 

[scholfield]

Journal was never this busy when I was trading! :cheesy: