Why do people lose money on the market?

in2uxs said:
Thank you for all your replies. Each of you are lovely, but I dare say some more lovely than others…

The commission, stamp duty, and the spread, are maybe valid reasons for a negative bias, but these alone cannot be held as sole reason why it is people lose money as quickly as they do. In a lot of cases stamp duty and commissions are not even factors.

Quote: “If the market was generally trending up and you were going long then a purely random pick might favour the profitable side. If however you were going short it would favour the loss-making side.”

This trend line theory is flawed. Regardless of the trend on average you should still come out with a neutral bank by randomly picking stocks. For example during a raving bull market if we were to pick 100 stocks at random, and their direction at random, then on average we would be correct 50 times. Out of those 50 times we would on average be correct in hitting the rising trend 25 times, but would also be incorrect 25 times and as such would lose what we had gained resulting overall in neutrality. I agree that the above example isn’t taking into account any run of good or bad luck, but at the end of the day it is still somewhat mystifying why Joe Bloggs with his £10,000 start up fund loses it all within a remarkably short time.

Mystifying it maybe … but here is my view….

I believe the key reason is that people are primed right from the start to lose money owing to psychological reasons. Take a new trader coming to the market for the very first time. Many such traders entering the market will already have – maybe at a sub conscious level - a pre conceived notion of what a traders life entails, and as such they enter the market with their “greed is good” mentality truly believing that high risk and high anxiety are the only things that they must endure in order to become rich.

Let us take the new television adverts by CMC. The adverts show a nervy David hovering over his mouse button as he tries to make a killing on the stock market – it is again this very clichéd view that goes to reinforce the lifestyle of the successful trader – a lifestyle that tells all new traders that high leverage equates to big gains and that anxiety is by product of the business. To many new traders who watch such adverts the stress of it, the late night’s worrying about big investments, does not equate as a negative, but in fact more as a positive - the new trader sees the stressful lifestyle of a successful trader, and becomes excited by it, almost sexually, at the thoughts of a life on the roller coaster.

In addition to the above factors influencing how a new trader should act there are also inbuilt human traits which also prime him to lose – these are the human traits of greed, sloth, and impatience.

Considering that your new trader will have a high dose of all the above it is hardly surprising that when he does start investing he will right from day 1 act like the worst kind of stereotypical Hollywood Wall Street investor. I would not at all be surprised if your new investor’s first purchase isn’t a pair of red braces!

So, brainwashed is your new investor with the thoughts of “this time next year I’ll be a millionaire” that he will kiss goodbye to all reason and logic, and embrace the addictive high risk high leverage flashing light lifestyle of market trading. It is this high risk, high leverage attitude that he mistakenly thinks of as investing that will be his eventual downfall - in fact such investing is more akin to gambling than investing, but he is so brainwashed by the notion that he is an investor not a gambler that his gambling actions go unnoticed. It is only after he has lost a great deal of money will he begin to ask himself this question: I’ve had all the anxiety and sleepless nights but where’s all my money gone?

The leverage factor in my view is one of the worst instruments ever created as leverage only goes to add petrol to the instant wealth fire of thoughts that burn so strongly in the mind of most new traders. A new trader may open a trading account with say £5,000 which in affect gives him the power to buy say £100,000 worth of shares. This fact alone is enough to brainwash the strongest of characters into thinking they’re already in the fast lane let alone the new start up trader.

Taking all the above into account we may now understand more about the psychological state of your average trader when he first enters the market. Let us now see an example of it…

Day 1: your new investor finds himself sat in front of his computer with a brainwashed brain, and the power to buy £100,000 worth of assets at the touch of a button. Immediately, he sees a company’s share price go down and thinking it can’t go down anymore he buys more shares in the company than he really should, and then sits back with little in reserve watching the market see saw in its usual fashion. However, when he sees it sawing against him a sense he has never had before begins to creep into his very soul – anxiety.

He sees £100 gone … then £200, then **** £400 has gone in the blink of an eye! His heart starts pounding, and his imagination begins to work overtime as it tells him that he’s pick a bad ‘un here! Before long a further £1000 has gone, and at this a voice in his head tells him to sell up. He does so … eventually … but not before losing more money … and then he slinks off and eats biscuits for comfort.

Our new investor is now poorer, fatter, and has received a many negative strokes that will in time begin to eat away at his very being. He feels hard done by now, but still the optimist he invests even more money in the hope that he’ll hit on a winner and get his money back. This time he may see himself up £200, but that’s still nowhere near enough so he hangs onto his position, but then things swing against him again and before long not only does he see his profit disappear, but he now faces another loss. He’s only been trading a few days, and he’s lost a 5th of his account already!

Over the next few weeks he’ll invest more and more in a hope of getting back his money, but due to the leverage aspect of his investments he only has to see the market dip slightly against him, and his anxiety and self doubt return forcing him to sell. Before too long he either gives up, or takes to self analyses.

The trader example above is probably a version of many of us in here – especially during the early days?

It is my true belief that it is only after we have self analysed our own minds, and re-educated ourselves on how we should trade that we then stand a chance of becoming professional. I am by nature a keen observer of human behaviour, and I have for quite some time self analysed my own actions regarding trading. I have discovered a very interesting thing: it seems to be that when I invested a lot I lose, but when I invested a small amount I win.

The reason why eluded me for some time, but it is really is quite simple. It is the anxiety factor again - eliminate the anxiety factor, and your on your way to becoming successful. When you invest a small amount, and the market moves against you then the anxiety factor simply doesn't come into play as you don’t have that much at stake - so, you’ve lost a tenner – big deal! Instead of sitting there imagining that the world is against all that you do, you instead just potter off for a cup of tea, and when you come back the market has more often than not swung back more favourably and hey presto you've made a few quid. Even if the market carries on going down then instead of your imagination yelling at you, “QUIT NOW YOU USELESS ******” you instead feel more in control and see this whole situation more as a game of chess - instead of fear you buy a few more shares at the cheaper price which in affect lowers the average price your shares have to reach in order to profit.

It therefore seems to me that the key to success is not to buy red braces on day 1, but to treat the market more as a chess game than a shoot out. Use reason and logic, and eliminate the anxiety factor by reducing your leverage. If you daren't leave your computer just in case the FTSE loses 20 points then take this tip ... half your investment immediately. You should never feel anxious – if you are active in the market, and should you see the market fall then you should always be in a position that you view this as a good opportunity to buy cheap stock off panicking investors rather than be one of the panicking investors who are selling cheap stock.

God bless


My eyes glazed over and I started to fall asleep reading your book of a reply. I haven't read it all, but if you put as much effort into trading as you do in writing you'll do well.

The reason people lose money? Same reason I wouldn't try to remove teeth after reading a book on dentistry or try to fly a plane after taking an internet course or getting a self-styled "mentor" to teach me- it isn't enough. Unless you are exceptionally talented it will take 10 years to trade well. Nothing, repeat nothing can replace experience. Save you tutor money, the money you spend on charting software, on trading systems and get some experience . NO SHORT CUTS.
 
I cannot think of another area of human endeavour in which people try to practice, and expect to succeed, with absolutely no knowledge or experience of what they are doing. Why do the financial markets attract so many people who are so ignorant?
 
"My eyes glazed over and I started to fall asleep reading your book of a reply. I haven't read it all, but if you put as much effort into trading as you do in writing you'll do well."


I thank in2uxs for his deatiled post and put it to you City trader if you put as much more effort into reading the complete post then you may do better in your trading. detail, focus, comittment and as you suggest NO SHORT CUTS, not even with reading posts.

Must try harder city and spoon your own medicine please. Im holding thought tranferance tonight in the pick your right software thread 18.00-18.15, please come in there and i'll send you a couple of mine.Bless you City.

good post in2 more please.
 
Pippppin said:
I cannot think of another area of human endeavour in which people try to practice, and expect to succeed, with absolutely no knowledge or experience of what they are doing. Why do the financial markets attract so many people who are so ignorant?

'easy' money! :eek: :LOL:
 
Pippppin

People view writing in a similar way as well. I used to move around the writing circle many years ago, and its amazing how many people put pen to paper in the belief that all that it takes to become the next best thing is ... well ... a pen and paper. The Radio 4 forum is full of such people blaming radio producers, left wing politics, gays, blacks, women, all kinds of conspiracies to why their radio play got rejected. The last thing that enters their mind's is the fact that their play really isn't any good.

The belief that to become a ... is technically known as the nong syndrome.

The duffers who warble a song on X factor also suffer from nong syndrome. In their case they are misguided enough to think it all that it takes to become a great singer is a voice box and great t1ts.

Be interesting how many other activities fall prey to nongism?
 
Pippppin said:
I cannot think of another area of human endeavour in which people try to practice, and expect to succeed, with absolutely no knowledge or experience of what they are doing. Why do the financial markets attract so many people who are so ignorant?

Virtually no barriers to entry. It's only slightly more complicated to open a brokerage account than to walk into a casino. But I don't have nearly as much sympathy this time as I did six years ago, largely because there's really no excuse for repeating mistakes made so recently.

Db
 
Pippppin said:
I cannot think of another area of human endeavour in which people try to practice, and expect to succeed, with absolutely no knowledge or experience of what they are doing. Why do the financial markets attract so many people who are so ignorant?
They don't understand...that. they don't understand ....that..... they don't understand...at all.

Then anything you say falls on deaf ears because they consider it cannot possibly apply to them.

It seems to me to be a chain of misperceptions into which they are locked in and cannot escape from...

What else could it be ?

Many will not understand what i am saying, but I am saying it anyway, let us see if it lands...
 
Brothers Soul said:
"My eyes glazed over and I started to fall asleep reading your book of a reply. I haven't read it all, but if you put as much effort into trading as you do in writing you'll do well."


I thank in2uxs for his deatiled post and put it to you City trader if you put as much more effort into reading the complete post then you may do better in your trading. detail, focus, comittment and as you suggest NO SHORT CUTS, not even with reading posts.

Must try harder city and spoon your own medicine please. Im holding thought tranferance tonight in the pick your right software thread 18.00-18.15, please come in there and i'll send you a couple of mine.Bless you City.

good post in2 more please.


Except, my grammatically challenged friend, there is no reward for reading waffling posts. Yet, as you say there is a reward for focus, detail and comittment in the financial markets. And of course, I'm not the one questioning why I lose money. I'm actually happy with my performance. But then I did start trading in The City 25 years ago, but hey. What do I know?
 
Brilliant Observation

rols said:
Because they want to.
:idea:...And because they end up getting what they truly want at a deep subconscious level, which they must perversely enjoy, which gives them the perfect excuse to blame everything and everybody except themselves.

But the root cause remains unexplained....

What is the true root ?

What is it ?

Let us see if we can get the moth to hover above the flame of the candle....:cheesy:
 
The sub conscious is definitely involved. As a highly intelligent person myself (I bow down only to the wisdom of Socrates) I understand from books that I have read that the human sub conscious mind contains within it a world view of how it sees us fitting into the scheme of things. This world view is created during are early years. Maybe when we begin trading the sub conscious mind thinks that we are stepping outside this world view, and as such it becomes fearful. Most people are incapable of "upgrading" their sub conscious world view in order to allow financial success because changing ones world view requires an intellectual process, and most people simply lack the intellectual ability to undergo such a process. In short changing one's sub conscious takes patience, will power, and self analyses. Those that are wise follow the path of sub conscious enlightenment; those that are dumb fall foul of the sub conscious mind manipulating their very own actions in order to achieve failure. Before long they have self sabotage their own deals, lost all their money, and become dishwashers once again.

That is my theory.


PS

City Trader

I reject that my earlier post was a waffle, sir, it is more an essay regarding the detailed scientific study of human psychology, and like intercourse such things cannot be rushed. I do however understand that such post can only be truly appreciated by the more highly evolved individual.
 
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in2uxs said:
The sub conscious is definitely involved. As a highly intelligent person (I bow down only to the wisdom of Socrates) I understand from books that I have read that the human sub conscious contains within it a world view of how it sees us fitting into the scheme of things. This world view is created during are early years. Maybe when we begin trading the subconscious thinks that we are stepping outside this world view, and as such it becomes fearful. The subconscious hates change as it is an intellectual process, and most people lack the intellect. In short to change takes patience, will power, and self analyses, so instead of changing the sub conscious instead takes the easy way out - it manipulates are very own actions and consequently we self sabotage our own deals. We therefore lose are money, give in, and become dishwashers once again.

That is my theory.


PS

City Trader

I reject that my earlier post was a waffle, sir, it is more an essay regarding the detailed scientific study of human psychology, and like intercourse such things cannot be rushed. I do however understand that such post can only be truly appreciated by the more highly evolved individual.
Yes, that's right, and the subconscious knows everything and is never wrong and is able to percieve very accurately.

Let us give a chance to some member who needs it to step forward now and deal with the moth and the flame....and let us see what happens.

This may be getting interesting....:cheesy:
 
Making money trading can feel too easy and somehow morally wrong to one brought up in an environment where pay is dependent on effort with tangible results split evenly over regular hours within fixed boundaries. On turning to prolonged periods of quiet, almost casual, observation interspersed with brief periods of intensity, the pay coming in irregular unpredictable lumps in return for clicking a mouse at the right moments can come as a shock to the hidden value system and foment a strong urge to give it back. This is exarcerbated if the personal idea of righteous graft encompasses physical as well as mental exertion. Most jobs have a demonstrable concrete output, be it boxes shifted, spreadsheets completed, houses built, policies written etc. whereas trading does not - only a solitary hollow +/- figure at the end of the day. The feeling of "What have I produced" can nag terribly. Perhaps also the guilt of enjoying the job when surrounding friends are locked into jobs they hate or at best tolerate. It's too much luxury for the subconscious so it wants to pay imaginary dues, easily done by sabotaging decent trading methods. Just one of many reasons we "want" to lose, I imagine.
 
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Dependency

When we are born we are dependent. We are totally dependent on our mothers to look after all our needs. Our very survival depends on this.

If there is any risk of rupture from our source of dependency we do everything we can to re-associate ourselves with our source of survival. In the early stages we cry to ensure that our perceived needs are met.

As we grow older and wiser we realise that there are other sources that we can depend upon and we go exploring the wider world. However we still react in similar ways if the sources upon which we are dependent are at risk. That is why we hate criticism, at least from those upon whom we depend e.g. the boss, the spouse, because it is a threat to our survival.

When we become traders we depend upon systems, gurus, our perceptions of how the market should work. If these appear to fail because the reality of the market is not as perceived, we become threatened and fearful. Rather than act according to the reality of the market we try to control it. We try to make it behave as we think it should behave. At this point we abandon our plans in favour of where we think the market should be going i.e. where we would like it to go. We make foolish decisions, abandon stops, let losses run and so forth. We let our emotions rule, because they worked well in the past at getting what we wanted.

Only when we truly see the real nature of the markets does this dependency on externals stop. The market does not care about you and I. We are but small, very small cogs.

Play the probability game. Play the emotional zero-sum game. Take full responsibility and ultimately you will win.

Charlton
 
in2uxs said:
PS

City Trader

I reject that my earlier post was a waffle, sir, it is more an essay regarding the detailed scientific study of human psychology, and like intercourse such things cannot be rushed. I do however understand that such post can only be truly appreciated by the more highly evolved individual.

You've made a detailed scientific study of human psychology? Well my learned friend, may I suggest with such an impressive pedigree, you stick with what you know? And leave trading to us lesser evolved individuals?

CT
 
Interesting theories ... the sub conscious dependency on others is a good angle and one that is worthy of further analysis.

It could be argued that most of us have a need to by told what to do. We may dislike it, but ultimately it is a need that feeds are desire to be safe. First of all we look up to our mothers, then our boss, and then in moments of crisis seek God to show us the way. When dealing we may read reports or read the tips in newspapers and then act accordingly - this in itself is giving control again to somebody else and if all goes wrong ... well, we blame them rather than ourselves.

It can therefore be argued that before total genius can rein in any subject we must first of all re-programme our own sub conscious minds into having a state of total independence. The who's who of great people do tend to be leaders, not followers, and as such I for one think that this topic of conversation deserves greater investigation.

Take this to heart people. Re-programming your own mind maybe a painful journey, but it can't be as painful as listening to Ray perform his ABBA swing song on X factor!
 
I find it interesting the 3 people who I know have worked in the city on this thread, don't mention pyschology nor sub-concious anything, rather they just put it simply and to the point, and cut out all the BS. To you 3 my thanks go out for keeping it simple as it needs to be. Like TW1 says, it really isn't rocket science.
 
Totally agree wasp , didn't read all the rubbish written here , the main reason why most people lose at tradeing is that it's a zero sum game , meaning therefore atleast half all money put on mkts must lose, with perhaps the exception of longterm investing.Not only that, the winners get to stay on , a sort of natural selection , but one which means because they are there longer ,this scews the proportions of winners to losers (over many trades ) into the 90/10 or 95/5 %figures you hear bandied about.I do suspect the winners only believe in one thing when it comes to trading , and that is the power of profitable trades , just can't beat it , and it's hard to argue with , even for your more pompouse members!!( and yes i have worked in the city , driving a cab)
 
wasp said:
I find it interesting the 3 people who I know have worked in the city on this thread, don't mention pyschology nor sub-concious anything, rather they just put it simply and to the point, and cut out all the BS. To you 3 my thanks go out for keeping it simple as it needs to be. Like TW1 says, it really isn't rocket science.
But it isn't a punt either...:LOL: ....I expect you will next recommend all the members here who have difficulties ought to work in the city to eradicate them.....:LOL: ...if you consider it to be a solution like the application of some universal patent medicine....then you ought to bottle it and sell it.....:LOL: ...

So what is at the root of it then, Eh ?
 
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