What's your 'edge'?

[Shipptastic]

Thank you for you welcome, although I think you might be chastising me with your 'giggle' in reference to Kent State. I hope I have not started off on the wrong foot with you ladies and gentlemen. In the future, I hope personal cut-downs, especially in reference to education might be avoided.

The only edge I have revealed is that I am new and open minded, I hope like Keystone put, there might be a few individuals in these forums who might show some guidance, to the younger and less educated.

 

[Aleph Sigma Chi]

The only edge I have revealed is that I am new and open minded, I hope like Keystone put, there might be a few individuals in these forums who might show some guidance, to the younger and less educated.

Indeed Shipptastic. I am a newcomer to this site too, but a veteran trader and was wondering if the type of help to which you refer might no go amiss. As helpful as the posters to this thread have been so far, there's always room for another view in how such help to new-to-trading traders might be provided.

I'll have a think and find the best place to post as I'm not convinced 'General Trading Chat' is optimum.

 

[Keystone]

Ah ! Yes........in consequence of the above it is patently clear owing to a process of logical progression that anyone properly armed with a view is likely to have an edge, whereas it is most unlikely that the holders of opinions are in posession of anything other than the opinions themselves and nothing else of any significance.

I am finding this very difficult. I wish to reply to your post but I simply do not have the time. You are lucky in that you obviously have been privileged in life to be educated to your level and have the time to assemble your views. Regretfully, I cannot join you in that arena as I am to busy trying to survive. I reserve my precious time for my trading and learning. This has been a mistake on my part to post here, when I should have been spending my precious time continually testing my rules of trading.

I know one day I will have that time, and my hope then is to offer guidance. I will not place myself on the other side of a wall.

I must agree with Shipptastic that perhaps this thread should now die as I feel it is to deep and heavy for anyone new to trading to appreciate, but then again there is a great deal to be learned here for those who have reached a certain level. Perhaps not positive but life must be balanced.

As you say you cannot be on both sides of the glass wall at the same time. As much as I admire your intelligence and most of your posts I cannot help but feel in the short time I have known you that you are everything that has made Great Britain but at the same time you are everything that is wrong. Grief, I wish I had time to fully understand and explain exactly what I mean by that! Perhaps when entering this thread it would have been more acceptable to bring yourself to this side of the wall. You might learn something. Is the fog lifting now?

This is really very difficult. Trading is much easier. Life should be even easier!

I would like to thank everyone for their posts on this thread. Good luck.
Keystone.

 

[Keystone]

Indeed Shipptastic. I am a newcomer to this site too, but a veteran trader and was wondering if the type of help to which you refer might no go amiss. As helpful as the posters to this thread have been so far, there's always room for another view in how such help to new-to-trading traders might be provided.

I'll have a think and find the best place to post as I'm not convinced 'General Trading Chat' is optimum.

Aleph Sigma Chi and Shipptastic

Gentlemen, I look forward to reading your posts in the future.

Aleph Sigma Chi, Your picture on your profile page is…..well, I would like to sit there one day and smell it’s reality and life. Thank you for that.

 

[SOCRATES]

Thank you for you welcome, although I think you might be chastising me with your 'giggle' in reference to Kent State. I hope I have not started off on the wrong foot with you ladies and gentlemen. In the future, I hope personal cut-downs, especially in reference to education might be avoided.

The only edge I have revealed is that I am new and open minded, I hope like Keystone put, there might be a few individuals in these forums who might show some guidance, to the younger and less educated.

The giggle is an involuntary reflex response. The reason for it is simple. Unfortunately all you learn outside does not prepare you for what you will encounter in the world of trading with its cruel yes and no outcomes that cannot be fudged. You could say that conventional education with respect to trading actually confers a disadvantage, and actually serves to misdirect and ultimately miseducate. I can tell you this because in the past I have taught many people. The most highly educated of them in this conventional manner found it very difficult to accept they had to unlearn nearly everything they were taught in order to succeed at this. This is a shock to individuals who have been working very hard to obtain a degree or a doctorate only to find all they have learnt to be on the other side of the glass, and therefore not only useless but additionally a burden.

The question of guidance is very difficult. This is because there is a carefully graded structure to all the knowledge required (and I assure you it is extensive) to attain true proficiency. if one grade is missing from the structure that is enough to give problems not only through lack of information but moreso from lack of understanding as a result of the absence of that knowledge. The acquisition of all the knowledge is a huge mission, but once it is achieved it provides a reliable and totally embracing frame of reference. If this frame of reference is missing then it is not possible to offer guidance or mentoring.

Additionally nearly everyone here percieves their frame of reference to be adequate, but none of them conform to what I describe above.This is except for a very few members who never post whom I have taught and continue to guide and mentor, who choose to remain silent, as they do not want to risk being pestered for information. For this reason, and this reason alone, mentoring or guidance is not possible in public format because it is as if different languages were being spoken, neither understands the other, and the whole excercise becomes a Tower of Babel very easily. Consequently I can only offer mentoring or guidance to those I have personally taught, and no one else.

 

[fxmarkets]

hmm, could it be that people could have an edge or multiple edge's, yet not recognise it as an edge in their growth? Being distracted by others or having holding the opinion of thinking perhaps "the edge must be more than this surely"

And can edges be split down, mini edges to make "THE EDGE" ie method edge, mind edge etc....= Edge?

are there and would it help for individuals to have a list of edges to aquire and maybe this list would help?

 

[SOCRATES]

hmm, could it be that people could have an edge or multiple edge's, yet not recognise it as an edge in their growth? Being distracted by others or having holding the opinion of thinking perhaps "the edge must be more than this surely"

And can edges be split down, mini edges to make "THE EDGE" ie method edge, mind edge etc....= Edge?

are there and would it help for individuals to have a list of edges to aquire and maybe this list would help?

Doesn't apply.

When you have an edge, not an imagined or percieved edge, but a real one, "you know it"
.
If you do not have one, you don't have one, simple.

I will concede that the final edge is a gestalt, but all of the component parts have to be accurately in place from the word go for it to become reliably manifest.

By this I mean the ability to replicate, on command at will, and very very fast.

 

[fxmarkets]

yes, but for others trying to aquire edge, it may be of use to them if they had an awareness of destination edge. Rather than say whats your edge, perhaps what is edge ,would be a better stimulant and journey to discover that.

 

[chump]

Let me try an put this into more concrete terms that might make sense outside of trading.
Some years past I was involved in a business dispute and the sums were not inconsiderable.
I knew the otherside pretty well in all senses (personally and financially) and I knew from past experience of them what their tactics were for handling such disputes. Consequently , when I knew a dispute was going to be inevitable I stage managed the chronology of the dispute to put the probability of success on my side.
In essence because of the way the legal process works I simply had to sit and absorb their pressure until the time of action in my plan was arrived at..until then I would not go to the table with them ..but when I did go to the table the leaverage was with me and the pressure had turned on them because they only had time left to do but two things and to settle was going to be the lesser of two evils for them ...now that is edge..set up the action (rules of engagement) so that you know it is in your favour as far as you can make it and don't go to the table until it is...outcomes are still uncertain as they always will be , but at the end you played the advantages that you had (edge) and all you need to know is could you have played them any better.

Put that into trading terms...why would you wish to 'go to the table' before you intimately knew the rules of engagement ...the players and their tactics...what your clear action set should be..and of course last but not least..having the experience /makeup to execute the action.

Let me put that into context..had I failed to achieve my outcome in the above I would have had no regrets ..I would have looked at it to see if there was anything to be learned ,but apart from that I would just have walked away from it regardless of the outcome...in other words I don't invest anything of myself in the outcome of the conflict ..control the things you can control and don't be drawn into conflicts when the action set is not under your 'control'.
Clear as mud ...LOL

 

[SOCRATES]

yes, but for others trying to aquire edge, it may be of use to them if they had an awareness of destination edge. Rather than say whats your edge, perhaps what is edge ,would be a better stimulant and journey to discover that.

Destination edge is a very apt nomenclature to give to the desired faculty.

But because a lot of work is involved, the route appears to be very long and tortuous. It is not really, but it is percieved to be so.

The reason for this is simple.

It is not generally accepted or understood that many changes in widely held perceptions have to take place before even the basics can be mastered.

In ordinary life people proceed according to their perceptions. These perceptions do not apply to the market. What I am saying is that before anything can be changed one has to change oneself. Generally speaking, very few are able to do this, the great mafority do not view the excercise as necessary, and because they view it in this way never really get off the ground.

I am not going to persist with this.

In the past I devoted a lot of effort to this basic foundation of professional requirement, only to meet a lot of flak. For this reason I am not any longer willing to push it any further.

 

[SOCRATES]

Let me try an put this into more concrete terms that might make sense outside of trading.
Some years past I was involved in a business dispute and the sums were not inconsiderable.
I knew the otherside pretty well in all senses (personally and financially) and I knew from past experience of them what their tactics were for handling such disputes. Consequently , when I knew a dispute was going to be inevitable I stage managed the chronology of the dispute to put the probability of success on my side.
In essence because of the way the legal process works I simply had to sit and absorb their pressure until the time of action in my plan was arrived at..until then I would not go to the table with them ..but when I did go to the table the leaverage was with me and the pressure had turned on them because they only had time left to do but two things and to settle was going to be the lesser of two evils for them ...now that is edge..set up the action (rules of engagement) so that you know it is in your favour as far as you can make it and don't go to the table until it is...outcomes are still uncertain as they always will be , but at the end you played the advantages that you had (edge) and all you need to know is could you have played them any better.

Put that into trading terms...why would you wish to 'go to the table' before you intimately knew the rules of engagement ...the players and their tactics...what your clear action set should be..and of course last but not least..having the experience /makeup to execute the action.

Let me put that into context..had I failed to achieve my outcome in the above I would have had no regrets ..I would have looked at it to see if there was anything to be learned ,but apart from that I would just have walked away from it regardless of the outcome...in other words I don't invest anything of myself in the outcome of the conflict ..control the things you can control and don't be drawn into conflicts when the action set is not under your 'control'.
Clear as mud ...LOL

No, not clear as mud, but very clear indeed and very well put, and what is more very relevant.

 

[Keystone]

Destination edge is a very apt nomenclature to give to the desired faculty.

But because a lot of work is involved, the route appears to be very long and tortuous. It is not really, but it is percieved to be so.

The reason for this is simple.

It is not generally accepted or understood that many changes in widely held perceptions have to take place before even the basics can be mastered.

In ordinary life people proceed according to their perceptions. These perceptions do not apply to the market. What I am saying is that before anything can be changed one has to change oneself. Generally speaking, very few are able to do this, the great mafority do not view the excercise as necessary, and because they view it in this way never really get off the ground.

I am not going to persist with this.

In the past I devoted a lot of effort to this basic foundation of professional requirement, only to meet a lot of flak. For this reason I am not any longer willing to push it any further.

Socrates
There has been a failure and misunderstanding in our communication from our first posts on this thread. What you have been saying is perfectly correct and I am learning greatly from you, as I am sure others are and that is what matters. However there is something nagging within me regarding your posts and hopefully we can discuss it someday. In the meantime I will continue reading and digesting your wise words.
Keystone

 

[Keystone]

Let me try an put this into more concrete terms that might make sense outside of trading.
Some years past I was involved in a business dispute and the sums were not inconsiderable.
I knew the otherside pretty well in all senses (personally and financially) and I knew from past experience of them what their tactics were for handling such disputes. Consequently , when I knew a dispute was going to be inevitable I stage managed the chronology of the dispute to put the probability of success on my side.
In essence because of the way the legal process works I simply had to sit and absorb their pressure until the time of action in my plan was arrived at..until then I would not go to the table with them ..but when I did go to the table the leaverage was with me and the pressure had turned on them because they only had time left to do but two things and to settle was going to be the lesser of two evils for them ...now that is edge..set up the action (rules of engagement) so that you know it is in your favour as far as you can make it and don't go to the table until it is...outcomes are still uncertain as they always will be , but at the end you played the advantages that you had (edge) and all you need to know is could you have played them any better.

Put that into trading terms...why would you wish to 'go to the table' before you intimately knew the rules of engagement ...the players and their tactics...what your clear action set should be..and of course last but not least..having the experience /makeup to execute the action.

Let me put that into context..had I failed to achieve my outcome in the above I would have had no regrets ..I would have looked at it to see if there was anything to be learned ,but apart from that I would just have walked away from it regardless of the outcome...in other words I don't invest anything of myself in the outcome of the conflict ..control the things you can control and don't be drawn into conflicts when the action set is not under your 'control'.
Clear as mud ...LOL

Chance favours the prepared mind!

 

[insight]

Interesting question about your edge.

Edge * Leverage * Opportunities to use your edge = serious profits

I regard my biggest edge as being my commitment to trading. I love what I do and want to be involved with the markets for the rest of my life. I have been dreaming about some of the mech systems I'm working on over the last few nights, yet to get any reliable signals from my dreams though

I measure and analyze everything relating to my trading and systems to quite a degree (I think my spreadsheets are like nothing I have seen so far but can't share them yet unfortunately) and think that this is an edge over most of the traders I compete against, while they are off doing something else I will be running new filters over my trades or working with stats in Excel.

Hard work, it's an edge.

 

[SOCRATES]

Socrates
There has been a failure and misunderstanding in our communication from our first posts on this thread. What you have been saying is perfectly correct and I am learning greatly from you, as I am sure others are and that is what matters. However there is something nagging within me regarding your posts and hopefully we can discuss it someday. In the meantime I will continue reading and digesting your wise words.
Keystone

Keystone, what is nagging you most probably is not what I say, it is what I do not say.

Effective trading depends on two basic elements, method and mindset.

They have to be made as perfect as possible at all times in order to cope with all the different scenarios the market throws up all the time.

When an effective methodology is firmly and reliably secured by the trader it only constitutes a comparatively smaller percentage of the total armoury required to consistently succeed.

I am happy to discuss the mindset aspect of trading.

I am not willing to discuss my methodology, or tactics, let alone disclose edges, that serve to underpin it.

For this reason my posts appear naggingly incomplete, as I do not succumb to talking about what is bought or sold or at what price and in what quantities or for what reason like many members who boast and disclose.

For this reason there are members who cannot quite pin it and accuse me of being pompous, or a wordsmith or other nonsense.

Discussing my edge is an arena I am not interested to enter, and certainly not in public.

But it is an arena that arouses enormous curiosity from the general membership, nearly all of whom are either seeking shortcuts (that do not exist) or information begging ( information that cannot be given) or other games.

Because I am only interested in what is beyond method, which incidentally is very far above what is mechanical, and because there are very few who truly have mastered mindset as an extension to a proper method and are thus able to recognise and give mindset the proper importance it deserves, for this reason what I post may not seem to be mainstream in the context of what I describe above.

This absence of methodological content (which is what everybody wants) is what is causing you the nagging you describe.

I hope this helps you to resolve the subsconscious conflict you may be experiencing with regard to what you read that I post.

 

[zigglewigler]

In my years of trading I've had a number of moments of epiphany, those f### me sideways instances where I've been hit by an experience or understanding, that was so powerful to me it remained ingrained in my noddy box, shaping my useless normal-world brain into my trading brain. Whether it cost alot of money or not is not so relevant, but that the process has consumed years of my life, is.

You will find no edge worth having without experience. A series of worthless turd SB punts that make you feel a hero is no edge. My edge is unique. They all are, if you've found it. It can only be an edge perfectly suited to you, as a consequence of that process of seeking a sense that you are comfortable or at ease as a trader. Without the need to big yourself up as some new hotshot. That involves in part digesting all your favourite trader books and then promptly rejecting most of it, until you've acquired enough of other people's knowledge worth having, and enough painful and joyous experiences to have tested your metal. But mostly system developing till your brain bleeds!

I didn't find my edge in a book. I found it after I decided to develop a system to encapsulate my contrarian nature. Alot of answers lie in discovering what others are doing, then looking in the opposite direction. There is much emotional security in buying into accepted strategies, all together marching as one dumb ass crowd, groupthink is an old concept. The crowd that consistently make up the numbers have only the perceived comfort of their own company.

For an edge to exist by definition, it can't simply be conventional. Good risk management etc are part of good trading practice, but is itself not an edge.

Without question, accepting that this business is not easy, simple yes, but definitely not easy, can be considered as the first true step in the right direction. From there go your own way. You will stumble on your edge in good time, not before. And if you want to acquire it easily, you'll never find it.

 

[SOCRATES]

In my years of trading I've had a number of moments of epiphany, those f### me sideways instances where I've been hit by an experience or understanding, that was so powerful to me it remained ingrained in my noddy box, shaping my useless normal-world brain into my trading brain. Whether it cost alot of money or not is not so relevant, but that the process has consumed years of my life, is.

You will find no edge worth having without experience. A series of worthless turd SB punts that make you feel a hero is no edge. My edge is unique. They all are, if you've found it. It can only be an edge perfectly suited to you, as a consequence of that process of seeking a sense that you are comfortable or at ease as a trader. Without the need to big yourself up as some new hotshot. That involves in part digesting all your favourite trader books and then promptly rejecting most of it, until you've acquired enough of other people's knowledge worth having, and enough painful and joyous experiences to have tested your metal. But mostly system developing till your brain bleeds!

I didn't find my edge in a book. I found it after I decided to develop a system to encapsulate my contrarian nature. Alot of answers lie in discovering what others are doing, then looking in the opposite direction. There is much emotional security in buying into accepted strategies, all together marching as one dumb ass crowd, groupthink is an old concept. The crowd that consistently make up the numbers have only the perceived comfort of their own company.

For an edge to exist by definition, it can't simply be conventional. Good risk management etc are part of good trading practice, but is itself not an edge.

Without question, accepting that this business is not easy, simple yes, but definitely not easy, can be considered as the first true step in the right direction. From there go your own way. You will stumble on your edge in good time, not before. And if you want to acquire it easily, you'll never find it.

Quite so, ZW. It eventually comes to you, like a winged angel appearing and lightly touching your forehead with its forefinger, but it has to come to you and not you to it. And it comes to you when you are ready for it and not before, which implies that forcing it to appear and make itself manifest does not work.

Now, having agreed on that, we now understand that it is a very abstract and intangible and personal thing, a very personal series of evolvements that lead to the phenomenon. And when this phenomenon arrives, it is yours, is it not ? I mean yours pesonally in the most personal of meanings.

It is the result of a lot of graft, is it not ?

And once you have got your own personal edge, this is a treasure you are not apt to and could not be convinced to share as it is not shareable.

This brings me to the next point in this very real chain of reasoning.

As an edge is not shareable, equally it is not transferable, you agree ?

Then in a roomful of traders the holder of the true edge is the true holder and no one else.

Then no matter how much the true holder is badgered, he cannot and will not give up his edge.

Now I am very interested for all of you to hear ( I know the answer in advance, so I am not asking for myself, I am asking for and on behalf of you all) how it is that the House Psychologist is able to extricate an edge from someone who has it, and refuses to share it or transfer it, and for him or her to re distribute it to the others in his or her quest to make unsuccessful traders successful at last.

Bear in mind that if such a transfer could be effected it need only take place between the holder of the edge and the recipient, without the intervention of any intermediaries, as by now it is clear and it logically follows that they are not necessary.

I am waiting patiently for an answer from a properly qualified individual but so far none is forthcoming. We shall see what develops next.

Patience is what is needed, and time......

"Will you walk into my parlour ?".......... said the spider to the fly.

 

[zigglewigler]

Yes Soc, you have to keep it to yourself. A card counter on a blackjack table doesn't announce to the casino and fellow players what he's up to. Whatever your edge is, it only has an advantage against the market if it remains covert.

Rickey Cheung has a trading edge, and it'll cost you a fortune to find out what it is. If he gave it away for free, it would be dead within a few years.

We don't have to over complicate this issue, an edge is rare, and so are successful traders, so is absolute commitment and focus, and so is humility amongst the trading rabble. When you have an edge you act like you don't know nofink mate.

 

[Fader]

It's just discipline and money management, lets not start hugging trees and making a mystery of it to stroke our egos

High probability trades and confidence, it's not rocket science folks... and it isn't like deflowering a virgin or divine intervention like Soc is making out... you want an edge... probability

 

[SOCRATES]

It's just discipline and money management, lets not start hugging trees and making a mystery of it to stroke our egos

High probability trades and confidence, it's not rocket science folks... and it isn't like deflowering a virgin or divine intervention like Soc is making out... you want an edge... probability

Yes, in your pants as you say, and not your brains.