What's your 'edge'?

[Stockjunkie]

Making $ on direct access is easy . When you can beat the SBs to the amount I have then that is Livermore standard .

If you have done it , good . If you want us to believe you , proof .

I did not direct you to my site for selling , but the documentary proof of what I claim is there . Unlike some people I believe in backing up what I claim with real evidence .


Please don't go there if you do not want to .

 

[SOCRATES]

Your edge begins with intentional boundary's. Similar to building your own chess board.
You end up with an over all board with extreme edges (boundary's), and a series of smaller boards within the whole, all demarked with intentional boundary's.

Many traders call this a trading plan.

Each smaller board (the squares your game pieces sit in) represents time,direction, quantity, and action as boundary's.

Your game pieces are your strategies that are restricted by the boundary's you put in place.

Your edge matures as you gain experience intentionally testing those boundary's, and eliminating unintentional testing of those boundary's.

At this point you gain an advantage

Boundaries ~ not boundary's, because nothing belongs to the boundary.

Demarcated ~ not demarked, because no mark is removed.

Get yourself a decent dictionary and learn some proper grammar before you ponitficate more of your usual nonsense. You are funny really.

 

[SOCRATES]

I'll have to agree with Stockjunkie here. The notion that one must lose a lot of money when learning in order to get anything out of it is really no different than saying one must wreck quite a few cars before learning how to drive.

--Db

Yes, and your analogies are hilarious too.

I am enjoying all of this blundering enormously.

 

[SOCRATES]

I’ve recently been re-reading ‘The New Market Wizards’ by Jack D. Schwager.

Having first read it a couple of years ago when my understanding and success in the markets was limited to say the least, I find that now I have reached a greater level of understanding and success I find I am getting much more from the book. Previously I may have subconsciously rushed through the book looking for the greats secrets, but now it’s a much more slower, more pleasurable read. However I will throw this question into the lions den and see if anyone is brave enough to answer (for the benefit of all of course).

In his Market Wiz(ar)dom section at the back he talks about how it’s absolutely necessary to have an edge (as do all successful traders) ......

.....“You can’t win without an edge, even with the world’s greatest discipline and money management skills. If you could, then it would be possible to win at roulette (over the long run) using perfect discipline and risk control. Of course, that is an impossible task because the laws of probability. If you don’t have an edge, all that money management and discipline will do for you is to guarantee that you will bleed to death. Incidentally, if you don’t know what your edge is, you don’t have one.”

First find you method, then find your edge.
So, do you consider yourself to have an edge or are you desperately searching and curious to know what an edge looks and feels like?
What’s your interpretation of having an edge?

Keystone, please don't serve to perpetuate the repetition of the same question, as you are guaranteed not to get the answer you seek.

Think about it....now would you give your pin number on your card to anyone ? Would you sign a whole book of cheques and othewise leave everything blank and then leave it lying around ?

NO ? Of course not !

This is very similar.

You are going to get a lot of answers, of that you can be sure, but you are guaranteed not to be given the correct answer, the answer you truly seek, I am sorry to have to tell you. It is a futile quest doomed from the start.

This is because, if no one else will, here I am, telling you plainly so that you are prepared in advance for all the nonsense to follow that is guaranteed to overwhelm your senses and inundate your brain with conflicting ideas.

True holders of edges do not discuss them or give them away as they are too valuable.

Only pretentious ignoramuses are apt to blunder about in this arena and to express opinions of that which they know zero and that of which they ought to prudently keep quiet about. Instead, it is generally used as a ploy to persuade beginners of how clever and well informed they apparently are but in reality as bait in the hope someone will break silence and spill the beans. Very funny. This one could run and run.

 

[JonnyT]

An interpretation of an edge is a tested and (for you) tradable trading plan that has:
- clear entry, stop and exit rules
- risk management rules to achieve your psych/money/living goals
- monitoring to make sure your edge is still statistically valid and warn of degradation.

This is academic talk. A real edge is in the head and not on paper. This also happens to be why I think most traders fail as an edge as described above never lasts. Though to be fair Kiwi did include a fail safe.

JonnyT

 

[rizwanuk]

Market is constantly in an effort to blunt all edges.

All edges smooth out over time. Therefore make hay while the sun shines and know when to GET OUT !!!

 

[SOCRATES]

An interpretation of an edge is a tested and (for you) tradable trading plan that has:
- clear entry, stop and exit rules
- risk management rules to achieve your psych/money/living goals
- monitoring to make sure your edge is still statistically valid and warn of degradation.

This is academic talk. A real edge is in the head and not on paper. This also happens to be why I think most traders fail as an edge as described above never lasts. Though to be fair Kiwi did include a fail safe.

JonnyT

JonnyT I agree with you absolutely.

"In the head"

As it is in the head, it is not outside the head. If it were outside, it would be visible (possibly) and then could perhaps be identified and copied, but as you so aptly say, it is "in the head" , I suppose you mean "inside it" then there is no way the head in question is going to give up the contents if the head in question refuses to, and there for those outside the head, lies the conundrum, I respectfully submit.

 

[Keystone]

You are going to get a lot of answers, of that you can be sure, but you are guaranteed not to be given the correct answer, the answer you truly seek, I am sorry to have to tell you. It is a futile quest doomed from the start.

Socrates.

Never was I seeking the answer for myself. I consider myself not to have an edge, but indeed I have many. I am just curious as to peoples understanding and interpretation of what they consider to be ‘the edge’. It’s an education thing. Despite a couple of the expected disappointing replies I hope it has helped to make one or two viewers ask the question within themselves if they can truly answer this question.

The Schwager book has been quite a fun re visit after all these years of trying to gain an edge. It’s one of those I kept having thrown out the majority of the books many years ago.

I read charts instead. Fantastic stories they do tell. Full of drama, love and adventure, but never fiction. Some charts are so beautiful in what they say they should be on everyone’s top ten best sellers list. Buy your loved one a data feed for Christmas I say.

Anyway enough of this on a Saturday morning I’m of to do the Great South ‘Fun’ run.

Keystone.

 

[Stockjunkie]

Yes, and your analogies are hilarious too.

I am enjoying all of this blundering enormously.

Yes , and the problem is nowadays fermented by 2 things :

1) Those who have lost a lot in the past trying to covince themselves and others that losing big at the start is OK .

2) A whole load of bum gurus popping here and there , promising the 20X returns or whatever only for those who have bought what they sold , to fall flat on their faces and worse .

3) This has effectively poisioned the mindset of many traders that big gains are not possible and that everything you need is free on the net - rubbish .

4) It is rare but there are still the Kings of SBs here and outside who have real gems to offer .
But the realisation must be that these folk don't come free.

5) As been said , who is going to give their edge free to you ??
The NMW , one of my favourite trading books , though I think the 1st applies more to smaller traders like us .

When Jack talks about the edge , he never mentions what it is to top traders specifically , he just said you need one . What a surprise ....

 

[nobrainer]

My 'edge ' is keeping things simple.
That means I don't use charts at all. I just watch level 2.
To make the best returns daytrading you need to trade the most volatile stocks of the day.I tend to veer towards news (eg. results) led stocks eg. CW yesterday.I like to play on greed on fear.I like to make the 1st move...ie. if I think the news is good or bad , I like to hit the order book with a big order and thereby force a fast move in that direction.Thereafter I'll close as others are follow that move.As long as the trade size is very large , the returns can be very high.Naturally that requires a good ability to read how the market will interpret news on a short timeframe and also discpline if the trade goes wrong.
The above is just evaluating greed and fear on short timeframes and taking advantage.And to do those trades in very large sizes I'm not stupid enough to mess about with any platform other than direct access.
Its also uncanny how often the same market behaviour repeats itself on a daily basis.Any good daytrader will have seen this.Its basically cos human nature does not change imo.
As for finding an edge...its not in any book.....its working out how greed and fear works, where the money is and looking for a way to exploit it in a simplistic fashion.Naturally that may mean losses in the beginning till you hone your trade plan but once it works , the chances are you will remain consistently successful in any bull or bear market.

 

[Stockjunkie]

In my experience , stocks are best for strong bull markets and not for volatile or bear ones.

It may seem obvious , but not many have observed this , stocks breaking new highs are very good to buy .

 

[bulldozer]

Hello Keystone,

1. First and foremost have a GOOD understanding of ALL derivatives in the mrkt [not just one]

2. Formulate a system that you can HEDGE one derivative against the other.

3. Use the advantage of the stronger derivative against the weaker one. this will give added hedge.

4. Find out which derivative most people use and how they use it! and do the opposite to the losers!

5. Bottom line is that the losers pay the profits the winners generate.

6. Once all the above is accomplished then this = HEDGE and EDGE = profits& success
It is said that over 85 % of traders lose or go bust within the first year.

If still confused ?? send me e-mail [not PM service]

[email protected] plz address e-mail>>> double derivative

SORRY for my gramma or spelings mistake, i dont believe gramma or spelling makes one a good trader. Socrates i wellcome any comments on my post grammar/spelling included if you wish?! I look forward to your post. I just wat to hear your point of view thats, all i'm NOT being cynical at all, plz dont get wrong impression. send e-mail if U wish.



Bull
Without having a HEDGE you cannot achieve the EDGE!!!

 

[rizwanuk]

I read charts instead. Fantastic stories they do tell. Full of drama, love and adventure, but never fiction. Some charts are so beautiful in what they say they should be on everyone’s top ten best sellers list. Buy your loved one a data feed for Christmas I say.


Keystone.

Good Post !!! LOL

Only thing I would say is that be sure what you are reading is actually written. Do not be fooled by randomness !!!

 

[bulldozer]

From previous post "6. Once all the above is accomplished then this = HEDGE and EDGE = profits& success
It is said that over 85 % of traders lose or go bust within the first year."
===============================================================
Hmmmm
Its also a known fact that most people on this forum 80 % +, Do SB trades
What does it tell you?

Bull

 

[chump]

What's your 'edge' ..simple ..I'm a round peg in a round hole ...and disgreeing with Stockjunkie...if you can really 'read' what is said in NMW that is the message that come's out...it isn't some highly quantifiable strategy that is being hidden from the sight of the rest of us...it is that player and tools are in harmony creating a place between the ears from which the player can trade with control....thereby resisting the urge to buy Bulls options which would leave me in a hole in the long run etc

 

[bulldozer]

In my experience , stocks are best for strong bull markets and not for volatile or bear ones.

It may seem obvious , but not many have observed this , stocks breaking new highs are very good to buy .

=================================================================

Your a stock investor and NOT a derivative trader! A derivative trader has the edge over the stock trader/investor, Why? cause the returns are greater ! If you tell me which stock you think will go UP and i place a derivative trade on that stock, my gains will be far greater on that chosen stock! On the ortherhand if the stock falls heavily, your loses will be far greater than mine!

Bull

 

[SOCRATES]

Hello Keystone,

1. First and foremost have a GOOD understanding of ALL derivatives in the mrkt [not just one]

2. Formulate a system that you can HEDGE one derivative against the other.

3. Use the advantage of the stronger derivative against the weaker one. this will give added hedge.

4. Find out which derivative most people use and how they use it! and do the opposite to the losers!

5. Bottom line is that the losers pay the profits the winners generate.

6. Once all the above is accomplished then this = HEDGE and EDGE = profits& success
It is said that over 85 % of traders lose or go bust within the first year.

If still confused ?? send me e-mail [not PM service]

[email protected] plz address e-mail>>> double derivative

SORRY for my gramma or spelings mistake, i dont believe gramma or spelling makes one a good trader. Socrates i wellcome any comments on my post grammar/spelling included if you wish?! I look forward to your post. I just wat to hear your point of view thats, all i'm NOT being cynical at all, plz dont get wrong impression. send e-mail if U wish.



Bull
Without having a HEDGE you cannot achieve the EDGE!!!

Everything you mention in your post is correct.

But all these things are components of technical "facilities", like tools in good order in a well fitted out toolbox.

They do not on their own constitute an edge, because an edge is a significant advantage over and above all these details discussed in this thread and elsewhere on the site.

By the way since you mention it, it is not gramma and spellings mistakes, it should be grammar and spelling mistakes, I cannot resist to tell you but wonder if you are subtly leg pulling. TIC.

Have a nice weekend.

 

[SOCRATES]

And when Jack Schwager in his various editions of Market Wizards interviews these sacred monsters none of them effectively discuss or reveal their true edges. They may discuss this or that as a smoke screen but the central core is not made available to the public. They just eventually lead Jack to comment that you need an edge without being specific....do u now c or not c ? This must be very frustrating for the readers, who expecting a denoument somewhere in the opus, are left wondering. And as no one is prepared to give away anything out of self preservation (understandable) whilst flirting with the publicity that such commentary brings all are left none the wiser ; the public, who are accustomed to reading thrillers which habitually provide solutions at the end, like Agatha Christie did, cannot cope with what they percieve to be some sort of intellectual teasing, which it is not, but the preservation of valuable advantage instead, I respectfully submit. Do u c or not c ? Place yourself in the shoes of a sacred monster and you would do exactly the same, would you not ? Fog lifting now ?

 

[LION63]

....do u now c or not c ? This must be very frustrating for the readers, who expecting a denoument somewhere in the opus, are left wondering. And as no one is prepared to give away anything out of self preservation (understandable) whilst flirting with the publicity that such commentary brings all are left none the wiser ; the public, who are accustomed to reading thrillers which habitually provide solutions at the end, like Agatha Christie did, cannot cope with what they percieve to be some sort of intellectual teasing, which it is not, but the preservation of valuable advantage instead, I respectfully submit. Do u c or not c ? Place yourself in the shoes of a sacred monster and you would do exactly the same, would you not ? Fog lifting now ?

I doubt if they understand or see because it is not blatantly obvious and it still requires time and effort.

 

[SOCRATES]

I doubt if they understand or see because it is not blatantly obvious and it still requires time and effort.

Yes, quite so.

And one evening the year before last at a black tie celebratory dinner we had a "civilian guest" who made the ill considered enquiry parallel to the one being discussed on this very thread, and very pointed it was too....and the whole table fell silent. And then the individual under the pressure of inquisition looked round at all of us knowingly before calmly replying the following " Yes, of course, i can tell you, but I have to shoot you afterwards". The matter was brushed off with roars of laughter and the dinner then continued in jolly mood as before.