What's your 'edge'?

[SOCRATES]

I doubt if they understand or see because it is not blatantly obvious and it still requires time and effort.

Yes, quite so.

And one evening the year before last at a black tie celebratory dinner we had a "civilian guest" who made the ill considered enquiry parallel to the one being discussed on this very thread, and very pointed it was too....and the whole table fell silent. And then the individual under the pressure of inquisition looked round at all of us knowingly before calmly replying the following " Yes, of course, i can tell you, but I have to shoot you afterwards". The matter was brushed off with roars of laughter and the dinner then continued in jolly mood as before.

 

[bulldozer]

Yes, quite so.

And one evening the year before last at a black tie celebratory dinner we had a "civilian guest" who made the ill considered enquiry parallel to the one being discussed on this very thread, and very pointed it was too....and the whole table fell silent. And then the individual under the pressure of inquisition looked round at all of us knowingly before calmly replying the following " Yes, of course, i can tell you, but I have to shoot you afterwards". The matter was brushed off with roars of laughter and the dinner then continued in jolly mood as before.

=================================================================

Soc,

Just brilliant as usual!

With regards to point No 4 on my post. I discovered many years ago that buyers of options made up for more than 80% of losers! So i figured its not rocket science to work out to do the opposite! :cheesy: and as a result i became a Option writer. They [the buyers] are hell bent on buying the stuff, so i'll take their cash to make them feel happy :cheesy:
cause if i dont somebody else will
I fink Lion63 knows and understands what I'm on about too!

Bull
[email protected]

 

[LION63]

=================================================================



With regards to point No 4 on my post. I discovered many years ago that buyers of options made up for more than 80% of losers! So i figured its not rocket science to work out to do the opposite! :cheesy: and as a result i became a Option writer. They [the buyers] are hell bent on buying the stuff, so i'll take their cash to make them feel happy :cheesy:
cause if i dont somebody else will

Bull
[email protected]

Your discovery of the that fact through research in itself is part of the edge you have. Some might disagree with this but sometimes, it is the little things that count (despite the fact that they are not blatantly obvious).

 

[SOCRATES]

=================================================================

Soc,

Just brilliant as usual!

With regards to point No 4 on my post. I discovered many years ago that buyers of options made up for more than 80% of losers! So i figured its not rocket science to work out to do the opposite! :cheesy: and as a result i became a Option writer. They [the buyers] are hell bent on buying the stuff, so i'll take their cash to make them feel happy :cheesy:
cause if i dont somebody else will

Bull
[email protected]

Yes, of course, it is a well known fact that up to 85% of all options expire worthless or near worthless (in cabinet). So the posture you adopt is a correct professional posture to adopt under circumstances such as these. A similar situation exists in stock borrowing and stock lending operations.

 

[SOCRATES]

I forgot to add, what I mean by worthless or near worthless is that either the option price is reduced to zero or it is reduced to a price so low that the taker fails to excercise it. It is therefore in the category of being abandoned. This happens more often than is popularly thought and is an added bonus to skilful and well informed givers (writers). It means that frequently they get to keep all or nearly all of the premium.

 

[bulldozer]

I forgot to add, what I mean by worthless or near worthless is that either the option price is reduced to zero or it is reduced to a price so low that the taker fails to excercise it. It is therefore in the category of being abandoned. This happens more often than is popularly thought and is an added bonus to skilful and well informed givers (writers). It means that frequently they get to keep all or nearly all of the premium.

================================================================
Thats exatly what i'm doing. I buy them back for peanuts just b4 expiry to release the margin in order to open new positions. and take large prem's.

I know that some brokers will not allow peeps to write cause of the heavy liability / risk involved if it goes into profit for the buyer.


Bull

[email protected]

 

[SOCRATES]

Yes of course and the SP is the key.

 

[Keystone]

And when Jack Schwager in his various editions of Market Wizards interviews these sacred monsters none of them effectively discuss or reveal their true edges. They may discuss this or that as a smoke screen but the central core is not made available to the public. They just eventually lead Jack to comment that you need an edge without being specific....do u now c or not c ? This must be very frustrating for the readers, who expecting a denoument somewhere in the opus, are left wondering. And as no one is prepared to give away anything out of self preservation (understandable) whilst flirting with the publicity that such commentary brings all are left none the wiser ; the public, who are accustomed to reading thrillers which habitually provide solutions at the end, like Agatha Christie did, cannot cope with what they percieve to be some sort of intellectual teasing, which it is not, but the preservation of valuable advantage instead, I respectfully submit. Do u c or not c ? Place yourself in the shoes of a sacred monster and you would do exactly the same, would you not ? Fog lifting now ?

Socrates.
You are obviously correct in saying this thread will run and run. It appears it has given you the opportunity to express your teasing words of ‘wisdom’ many times. Your are right of course, but do you not feel you are being a tad pompous and aloof? In fact, perhaps even more teasing than those 'sacred monsters'?

I view this board as a bit of a distraction but I must admit it has helped me along the way to direct my education to the success I have today. I have resisted the urge to post before as it obviously takes to much precious time to explain/defend myself to those who have obviously not read my initial and subsequent posts correctly or have chosen in their weakness to miss the meaning. I probably wont bother again.

I do find it reassuring however just how many ‘traders’ miss the true meanings and blatantly obvious clues in their headlong rush to success. If they attach the same blindness (or selectness) to reading the markets as they do to reading posts then there will always be a good supply of losers.

I repeat, I do not seek the edge, because I already (humbly and respectfully in part) understand the balance of life within the markets and the direction one must take to be in tune with thy neighbours!!! However, content as I am at present I am always alert and forever searching for changes n the seasons!

I have not had the time or the pleasure to read all of your 2,000 odd posts, only a fraction, but I have enjoyed your posts previously as you are obviously an educated and knowledgeable person. However I cannot help but feel you are a dark shadow waiting to pounce on any mistake or blunder. Thank god I have spell checker as I fear the monster lurking in the darkness! God help the child who in his innocence asks a question.

This board and the majority of trading books are full of mind pollution, but sometimes in the deep there are one or two words that click and help a person like me take the direction towards an edge. Forgive me in my weakness on this occasion for believing that I could stimulate any sort of sensible debate that may help the natural born trader out there discover himself.

I have found my edge through damn hard work and much sacrifice, but I am a trading orphan. Abandoned and ignored to find his own way in trading life. I have to find my own way because people like you, despite all your words of wisdom, are just to aloof to help or perhaps just to damn scared to offer any true guidance !?

I am here to be educated but I can only take myself so far, so teach me master! If you really are the one!

 

[bulldozer]

Socrates.
I repeat, I do not seek the edge, because I already (humbly and respectfully in part) understand the balance of life within the markets and the direction one must take to be in tune with thy neighbours!!! However, content as I am at present I am always alert and forever searching for changes n the seasons!

I am here to be educated but I can only take myself so far, so teach me master! If you really are the one!

================================================================
Keystone,

Forgive me plz? I know that your post is directed at Soc. But on your 4th paragraph you claim to know it all and that you have found the "EDGE"! And I'm sure we are all happy 4 U, SOC included.
I'm a little confused cause in your closing statement you are asking for help and education how to improve in your trading by the "OLD/YOUNG MASTER".

Plz forgive me if i misunderstand the points your making.

Iv'e got a gut feelin that Soc's reply to your post is goin to be a corker. Cant wait! :cheesy:

Bull

[email protected]

 

[chump]

Keystone,
About 28 years ago I had the dubious pleasure of working with a couple of seasoned ,experienced businessmen (I consider that to have been my apprenticeship LOL) ..the overriding lesson I took from observing them for a couple of years was simple....never ever play a game according to rules set by someone else ...in the context of trading therefore the first step is to think of trading as a 'rules' bound game ...seek to understand the rules that the other players are attempting to set ...understand them ,but refuse them and layout a set of rules for yourself which from observation you know will lead to a planned outcome in the longrun....take Bulls options ..he's laid it out for you (with frank honesty)..play on his rules and you will on a probability basis lose , if that was not true he would already be out of business...
This all sounds relatively simple ,but it isn't because you will find yourself sorely tempted to either break your rules , or at least adopt those laid down by others simply because making and adhering to your own is just time consuming hard work to begin with.
You can even relate this to the interactions on these boards where one poster basically ignores the facts posted by another in order to assert a different 'opinion'..all he's doing is trying to get you to play by his 'rules'....you've arrived at your edge when you can just 'brush' this stuff into the nearest waste bin...and not be diverted from applying your 'rules'.
Good luck

 

[Keystone]

================================================================
Keystone,

Forgive me plz? I know that your post is directed at Soc. But on your 4th paragraph you claim to know it all and that you have found the "EDGE"! And I'm sure we are all happy 4 U, SOC included.
I'm a little confused cause in your closing statement you are asking for help and education how to improve in your trading by the "OLD/YOUNG MASTER".

Plz forgive me if i misunderstand the points your making.

Iv'e got a gut feelin that Soc's reply to your post is goin to be a corker. Cant wait! :cheesy:

Bull

[email protected]

Hello Bulldozer,

Yes you are right, my statement could be seen as contradictory. Here I am saying I know I have an edge when I am also asking for help. As I see it, through hard work and my own personal research I have found what I know to be an understanding that gives me various edges. And Socrates is damn right in that there is not a hope in hell that I would reveal my hard found secrets! However there is no harm in telling those who are perhaps truly searching that there is hope and through study of themselves and the markets will find their edge and the rewards will follow.

However I am always and forever still learning. There are more discoveries around every corner so no matter how pompous I may sound in saying that I have found an edge, I freely admit to being far short of being a complete and successful trader. Yes, I am now reaping financial rewards but what is the complete trader?

I could be the most humble and respectful student to a truly great master, but I am not entirely sure that the knowledge can be passed on successfully, as it has to be found and understood within oneself before the light can be seen. Self discovery and all that.

Even as I read this (my) post I can see holes in it. Grief, what is perfection? Stand back children as I see a dark shadow moving towards me from the darkness. Your right, Socs reply could be and probably will be a corker, and despite now cowering behind the children I can only defend my original post and meaning.

I always knew this was going to be a bad trade and I should have cut my losses after the first post! You see, I’m still learning!

Have fun, Keystone.

 

[Keystone]

Keystone,
About 28 years ago I had the dubious pleasure of working with a couple of seasoned ,experienced businessmen (I consider that to have been my apprenticeship LOL) ..the overriding lesson I took from observing them for a couple of years was simple....never ever play a game according to rules set by someone else ...in the context of trading therefore the first step is to think of trading as a 'rules' bound game ...seek to understand the rules that the other players are attempting to set ...understand them ,but refuse them and layout a set of rules for yourself which from observation you know will lead to a planned outcome in the longrun....take Bulls options ..he's laid it out for you (with frank honesty)..play on his rules and you will on a probability basis lose , if that was not true he would already be out of business...
This all sounds relatively simple ,but it isn't because you will find yourself sorely tempted to either break your rules , or at least adopt those laid down by others simply because making and adhering to your own is just time consuming hard work to begin with.
You can even relate this to the interactions on these boards where one poster basically ignores the facts posted by another in order to assert a different 'opinion'..all he's doing is trying to get you to play by his 'rules'....you've arrived at your edge when you can just 'brush' this stuff into the nearest waste bin...and not be diverted from applying your 'rules'.
Good luck

Excellent! Thank you. Anyone aiming for rewards from the markets should have this as one of their daily must reads until they find their own edge. Then keep reading it!

 

[bulldozer]

Keystone, Chump,

Brill posts! :cool

God makes the simple wise and the wise simple! in most cases! :cheesy:

ie Bush, Clinton, Monica Lewinsky and most UK MP's/Laws etc etc

Bull
[email protected]

 

[SOCRATES]

Socrates.
You are obviously correct in saying this thread will run and run. It appears it has given you the opportunity to express your teasing words of ‘wisdom’ many times. Your are right of course, but do you not feel you are being a tad pompous and aloof? In fact, perhaps even more teasing than those 'sacred monsters'?

I view this board as a bit of a distraction but I must admit it has helped me along the way to direct my education to the success I have today. I have resisted the urge to post before as it obviously takes to much precious time to explain/defend myself to those who have obviously not read my initial and subsequent posts correctly or have chosen in their weakness to miss the meaning. I probably wont bother again.

I do find it reassuring however just how many ‘traders’ miss the true meanings and blatantly obvious clues in their headlong rush to success. If they attach the same blindness (or selectness) to reading the markets as they do to reading posts then there will always be a good supply of losers.

I repeat, I do not seek the edge, because I already (humbly and respectfully in part) understand the balance of life within the markets and the direction one must take to be in tune with thy neighbours!!! However, content as I am at present I am always alert and forever searching for changes n the seasons!

I have not had the time or the pleasure to read all of your 2,000 odd posts, only a fraction, but I have enjoyed your posts previously as you are obviously an educated and knowledgeable person. However I cannot help but feel you are a dark shadow waiting to pounce on any mistake or blunder. Thank god I have spell checker as I fear the monster lurking in the darkness! God help the child who in his innocence asks a question.

This board and the majority of trading books are full of mind pollution, but sometimes in the deep there are one or two words that click and help a person like me take the direction towards an edge. Forgive me in my weakness on this occasion for believing that I could stimulate any sort of sensible debate that may help the natural born trader out there discover himself.

I have found my edge through damn hard work and much sacrifice, but I am a trading orphan. Abandoned and ignored to find his own way in trading life. I have to find my own way because people like you, despite all your words of wisdom, are just to aloof to help or perhaps just to damn scared to offer any true guidance !?

I am here to be educated but I can only take myself so far, so teach me master! If you really are the one!

I will explain to you that I am not pompous and aloof, but I am very sure of my ground and for this reason I am able to make statements that can stand up to the most ferocious scrutiny because whereas a lot of opinions are vented on this site, I only make statements that are the consequence of having a view.


You may begin to wonder, if you have not read many of my previous posts as to whether there is a significant difference between an opinion and a view. The difference between them is enormous but never properly explained.


When a professional encounters another professional between them they may or may not share a view. This is because a view is devoid of any emotional charge. Professionals are able to distance themselves emotionally but converge intellectually on what it is they are discussing.


Non professionals do not do this. When a non professional encounters another non professional ( a layman) they may or may not share an opinion. This is because an opinion carries with it an emotional charge. In ordinary life it is normal to have emotions about things being discussed because of the natural propensity to include personality which is not possible or advisable when discussing in a professional context which requires sterilisation of any superfluous input.

We now understand that ideally at a professional level there are views because these are selective and devoted specifically to the topic under discussion to the exclusion of all else. We also now understand that at a non professional or layman level the opposite is the case, that is, emotions are included as a matter of course within the context of what is being discussed.


So it follows that non professionals and laymen are not able to distance themselves (like the professionals do) but instead converge both emotionally and intellectually on what it is they are discussing at the same time.


You can begin to understand why it is that the same topic may be discussed by two groups of individuals who each may have an avid interest in the matter but the postures are completely different.


It is this difference of posture, that because it is detected but not understood in its proper context, that it leads to misunderstanding. This misunderstanding causes the non professional observer to assume (owing to the absence of emotional input, or personality) the discussion to be somehow "sterile" or "pompous" or "aloof". Nothing could be further from the truth.


I am now going to expand on this to ensure that you understand all of what I am saying very clearly.


It will be of value to you to understand the differences between these mechanisms of communication in the future when you again encounter them, and to know how to properly deal with unfamiliar scenarios caused by them, whether inadvertently or by design.

I will now proceed to give you a very good example of this phenomenon.


Physicians and surgeons and consultants in the field of human medicine are forced to adopt professional postures to protect themselves from lapsing into non professional conduct.
These professional postures if not understood within the context of what I explain above may seem baffling, contradictory, aloof, disconnected and perfunctorily even uncaring. It would not seem normal for medical professionals whose mission is to preserve life to be uncaring.
Yet an illusion is created in the mind of a non medical observer of this being a very real risk as a patient is being examined in the presence of a relative or friend in a casualty ward or in the Accident and Emergency Department of a busy hospital.


These two medical experts proceed to examine the patient on a trolley and begin to calmly exchange views as they proceed with the diagnosis. They talk among themselves in quiet tones using medical terms only they understand. They give no emotional clues regardless of what it is they encounter. A nurse is present with a clipboard. They intermittently turn to her and give instructions that she accepts and notes on forms. They are not interested in anything else. They do not acknowledge the presence of a lay person, even it he or she is next of kin. They continue to discuss in hushed tones. It is not clear whether a conclusion is reached or not. They do not disclose the result of their conclusions. When asked, it almost appears at an emotional level as if they consider the intrusion an affront and laconically comment it is too soon to say anything.


Why is this ?


This is because the physicians cannot afford to and will not become emotionally involved, because if they were to succumb, their professional clarity would be impaired. The posture of the next of kin is very different, and charged heavily with emotion.


It is as if a glass wall separates the group, excluding the anxious relative. It seems deliberately cruel, cold and disconnected.This is because the perspectives are completely different, but in the end analysis, it is the medical perspective that counts and the one that will win or lose the day.


How can this barrier, this glass wall be penetrated or removed ? It is very simple. The technique is to divert the attention of the physicians in such a way that they drop their self imposed "professional medical guard" and lapse back into humanistic form. Once this is achieved, they become very open and friendly and helpful and freely infomative and even sympathetic.


Do you now understand that these parallels must exist in every profession to a lesser or greater degree?


In trading the malady is a love of money, or a percieved love of money rather than a love of being right. The layman is apt to put the focus of attention on an aspect diametrically opposite to that of the professional. The professional's focus of attention is not on what the layman's is.

Money, or more to the point wealth or percieved wealth carries with it emotional charge. For this reason, and in parallel to what I have just explained, to lay people, there appears to be a glasswall that imposes the illusion of "sterility", "aloofness" or "pomposity", but of course none of it is the case.


Now let us look at all of this from another point of view. Trading is a profession, and not a lay occupation. To some people it may be a hobby, but a mere plaything it is not.


It takes several years to become a proficient physician, and it has to be done within a framework of structured learning, under careful supervision.


It is not a matter of being scared but rather a matter of absolute committment. Trading is not unlike. I now leave you to consider all of this in the light of what I have just explained to you, and why the glass wall exists and its ultimate purpose.

You cannot be on both sides of it at the same time.

 

[Shipptastic]

When a professional encounters another professional between them they may or may not share a view. This is because a view is devoid of any emotional charge. Professionals are able to distance themselves emotionally but converge intellectually on what it is they are discussing.

Well, I'm new to these forums, and it is obvious now they can be quite distracting. In the interest of professionalism, I shall avoid overstating the view that Socrates' post was long winded, but I did want everyone to note that in the process of reading the replys to the orignal thread, I completely forgot what the orignal post was.

Now I remember! And now I see it is even more obvious this thread should come to a stop since it seems to be going nowhere.

 

[SOCRATES]

When a professional encounters another professional between them they may or may not share a view. This is because a view is devoid of any emotional charge. Professionals are able to distance themselves emotionally but converge intellectually on what it is they are discussing.

Well, I'm new to these forums, and it is obvious now they can be quite distracting. In the interest of professionalism, I shall avoid overstating the view that Socrates' post was long winded, but I did want everyone to note that in the process of reading the replys to the orignal thread, I completely forgot what the orignal post was.

Now I remember! And now I see it is even more obvious this thread should come to a stop since it seems to be going nowhere.

Welcome to the site.

It is not that the thread is going nowhere as you say, it is that you have just landed here and are going very fast for a rank newbie.

Try to slow down a bit and get into sync is the best advice you can be given at the moment......Shipptastic.

 

[LION63]

When a professional encounters another professional between them they may or may not share a view. This is because a view is devoid of any emotional charge. Professionals are able to distance themselves emotionally but converge intellectually on what it is they are discussing.

Well, I'm new to these forums, and it is obvious now they can be quite distracting. In the interest of professionalism, I shall avoid overstating the view that Socrates' post was long winded, but I did want everyone to note that in the process of reading the replys to the orignal thread, I completely forgot what the orignal post was.

Now I remember! And now I see it is even more obvious this thread should come to a stop since it seems to be going nowhere.

A great way to announce your arrival to the Forum. Unfortunately, you have revealed your EDGE.

 

[SOCRATES]

A great way to announce your arrival to the Forum. Unfortunately, you have revealed your EDGE.

Yes, quite so, dear Lion, one shudders to think what is being taught to him at the Kent State's Financial Engineering( can't resist a giggle) Program, I ask you.

Time will tell, no doubt.

 

[SOCRATES]

Ah ! And by the way, I forgot to add that a view is the consequence not only of informed knowledge but also subject to proofs, otherwise it is not valid, like hearsay or gossip and so on.

A complete view comprises a theorem.

A theorem is a series of axioms (fundamental truths) linked in logical sequence relevant to that which is under scrutiny that finally arrive at and prove the truth of the hypothesis (which is what needs to be proved).

This makes all that contained within the theorem watertight, including the theorem itself.

An opinion is a pronouncement that anyone can make, which may or may not be true, reliable or even provable and cannot get even close to the validity of a view.

I thought I would add this just to clarify what is and what is not and to eliminate the slightest doubt that might remain.

 

[SOCRATES]

Ah ! Yes........in consequence of the above it is patently clear owing to a process of logical progression that anyone properly armed with a view is likely to have an edge, whereas it is most unlikely that the holders of opinions are in posession of anything other than the opinions themselves and nothing else of any significance.