Schneider Trading Associates: Graduate Training Program

[spreader_legger]

Nah .... they simply kick you out if your balance gets too low.

These arcades arn't all bad Ton. & if they back you its certainly good education

Trading styles vary, but most home retail traders will not be scalping in and out for 1 tick .... its a different skill altogether. I heard FUTEX is not too bad if you manage to get through the grad program

A propos STA, I was lucky enough not to blow my load, but certainly many lost a good proportion of their start up capital .... at which point you're told to bugger off.

Certain market makers such as optiver etc. are good places to start if you're nimble with your figures. Obviously IB's would be the best and most secure bet but we all know how hard it is to get into one of those, especially in these current conditions,

In short there is no one best solution out there ... pretty much horses for courses

100% agree with this...DO NOT EVER HAND OVER YOUR CASH TO THESE GUYS!

Think about it...with 40-60 new "grads" coming in monthly...where do you think they find the space for all these people...mugs who put their hard earned money down and burn out after 4 months:
Do the maths yourselves guys seriously!!

£1749 desk fees
say starting off you lose 10-15% of your initial capital also...in the first three months..(at this you would be doing exceptionally well i might add)

1749* 3= guts of £5.3 K
Losses of £1500 -2500 initially "learning the markets"...

Leaves you with 2 k...at which point they request you to deposit more money as they will be thinkin on next months desk fees...and you dont have enough margin in ur account to cover your positions intraday anymore

Seriously...there is better ways..

Trade small with a broker...keep it simple...consistent..show growth and profitability and learn/keep a diary of trades and improve /reflect using them

That simple...no need to gove STA 10K for the priviledge of being rinsed by a shower of asshole salesmen who portray themselves to be "trader"...believe me...they arent!

 

[tonster01]

Nah .... they simply kick you out if your balance gets too low.

These arcades arn't all bad Ton. & if they back you its certainly good education

Trading styles vary, but most home retail traders will not be scalping in and out for 1 tick .... its a different skill altogether. I heard FUTEX is not too bad if you manage to get through the grad program

A propos STA, I was lucky enough not to blow my load, but certainly many lost a good proportion of their start up capital .... at which point you're told to bugger off.

Certain market makers such as optiver etc. are good places to start if you're nimble with your figures. Obviously IB's would be the best and most secure bet but we all know how hard it is to get into one of those, especially in these current conditions,

In short there is no one best solution out there ... pretty much horses for courses

Yes I agree spreader...but what I do say is that if they say put your money down...this is "experts" saying they dont see what it takes in you...so tell you what...you take all the risk..lay the capital..pay the desk fee and we take a split of 30% for the priviledge...

But yes, as experience goes, why not go there but always remember ...they will be using tactics at all times to part you with your cash...I got asked would i consider loading from a credit card...thankfully I am not that stupid!

These people are sly sly sales man....regardless of what else you read on this board...steer clear if you are asked to put money down.

I made money month on month the whole time I was there...I had 30 lots to trade with at a time and done outright positions also which made me good money! They did not like this because
1: they lose out on the comms from double spreads
2. The see it as more "risk"

I moved on and happily never looked back...

So to conclude...by all means go there and get a grounding but NEVER EVER part with your cash ...or unfortunatley your parents cash which was sadly the case for so many of you...because in short you are not a trader...you are just another client who they try and make believe you are a grad and must do what they do...thankfully...I never bought into that...but I hope this advice saves some of you when you could otherwise read a few good books and go from there

In fact:
Read these as a good grounding:
The naked trader- Robbie Burns
The crowd- Gustav le bon (essential and hard read but priceless for trading)
Emotional intelligence0 robert goleman
Trader Vic 1& 2-Victor sperandeo
Market Wizards- Schwager
Fooled BY Randomness and the Black Swan- N Taleb

That will give you more than enough grounding

Use your 5-10k to TRADE...not to pay desk fees people!

This is about making money...not giving it away for a pipe dream!!

 

[TimYoung]

Really enjoying reading the updates Tim..thanks..

No problem. I got a lot of info on this forum before I went on the course and it has helped. Wished someone who have posted some info on what actually spread trading was about instead of me dossing around for a month losing money to find out.

I think it might have been different then 'cos RichieE was able to make money every day since day one and I suspect at that time the spread was mean reverting well.

 

[TimYoung]

Yes I agree spreader...but what I do say is that if they say put your money down...this is "experts" saying they dont see what it takes in you...so tell you what...you take all the risk..lay the capital..pay the desk fee and we take a split of 30% for the priviledge...

But yes, as experience goes, why not go there but always remember ...they will be using tactics at all times to part you with your cash...I got asked would i consider loading from a credit card...thankfully I am not that stupid!

These people are sly sly sales man....regardless of what else you read on this board...steer clear if you are asked to put money down.

I made money month on month the whole time I was there...I had 30 lots to trade with at a time and done outright positions also which made me good money! They did not like this because
1: they lose out on the comms from double spreads
2. The see it as more "risk"

I moved on and happily never looked back...

So to conclude...by all means go there and get a grounding but NEVER EVER part with your cash ...or unfortunatley your parents cash which was sadly the case for so many of you...because in short you are not a trader...you are just another client who they try and make believe you are a grad and must do what they do...thankfully...I never bought into that...but I hope this advice saves some of you when you could otherwise read a few good books and go from there

In fact:
Read these as a good grounding:
The naked trader- Robbie Burns
The crowd- Gustav le bon (essential and hard read but priceless for trading)
Emotional intelligence0 robert goleman
Trader Vic 1& 2-Victor sperandeo
Market Wizards- Schwager
Fooled BY Randomness and the Black Swan- N Taleb

That will give you more than enough grounding

Use your 5-10k to TRADE...not to pay desk fees people!

This is about making money...not giving it away for a pipe dream!!

Hey can I ask what strategy did you use to make money at STA? 'cos I am kinda stumped as to how they actually make money from us. If the market continue like now I don't think commission is what the matters when the grads are losing money from trying to mean revert a non mean reverting spread. I hear Canadian bonds are doing well but if the spread continue to not correlate I can't see how they can continue this model.

 

[tonster01]

Hey can I ask what strategy did you use to make money at STA? 'cos I am kinda stumped as to how they actually make money from us. If the market continue like now I don't think commission is what the matters when the grads are losing money from trying to mean revert a non mean reverting spread. I hear Canadian bonds are doing well but if the spread continue to not correlate I can't see how they can continue this model.

Yea sure, there is certain market conditions when the ted will actually trade as mean reverting and this market is not it!
Interest rates are too low be if you chart it up..its actually trending not meanreverting.
I used pure prices and action following it. I am not going to actually give my strategy away as it took me quite a while to figure but the truth is dont focus too much on news, random movements at stupid times of day etc
Focus on how you are feeling
Are you tired-hungover or upbeat and alert?
Are your trades independent or are they the same as the 6 others on the ted desk as they all think its a good trade.
Stand along and dont be influenced.
Use the technicals but look at longer term on the indivual euribor and schatz rather than solely the ted. Use Bund and Buxl also as anticipatory indicators and above all...dont be a cu*t and get married to a losing position....admit when you are wrong and start again..much better for your psyche!
Extreme volatility at the min means reduce position sizes..not increase..or trade more...
Reason major markets are falling is institutions now sit back and assess/reduce positions until things become clear
A novice sees massive movements and opportunity that he could have dow traded 400 points...well you would have most likey lost it as easy

The above should give you more than enough of a starting point

But to sum up:
Its the psychology thats important...not trendlines, pivots, news, doji...moving averages , floating donkeys or any other crap...

Its the price now and what that price reflects on the emotions/psychology of the masses!

Bear this in mind and develop your own thoughts...and you will simply make money

Oh and one more thing- more than 1-2 trades a day...and you are for a fact overtrading!

Dont listen to them commission hungry assholes! churn baby churn is all they think of you!
Focus!

 

[Pazienza]

Yea sure, there is certain market conditions when the ted will actually trade as mean reverting and this market is not it!
Interest rates are too low be if you chart it up..its actually trending not meanreverting.
I used pure prices and action following it. I am not going to actually give my strategy away as it took me quite a while to figure but the truth is dont focus too much on news, random movements at stupid times of day etc
Focus on how you are feeling
Are you tired-hungover or upbeat and alert?
Are your trades independent or are they the same as the 6 others on the ted desk as they all think its a good trade.
Stand along and dont be influenced.
Use the technicals but look at longer term on the indivual euribor and schatz rather than solely the ted. Use Bund and Buxl also as anticipatory indicators and above all...dont be a cu*t and get married to a losing position....admit when you are wrong and start again..much better for your psyche!
Extreme volatility at the min means reduce position sizes..not increase..or trade more...
Reason major markets are falling is institutions now sit back and assess/reduce positions until things become clear
A novice sees massive movements and opportunity that he could have dow traded 400 points...well you would have most likey lost it as easy

The above should give you more than enough of a starting point

But to sum up:
Its the psychology thats important...not trendlines, pivots, news, doji...moving averages , floating donkeys or any other crap...

Its the price now and what that price reflects on the emotions/psychology of the masses!

Bear this in mind and develop your own thoughts...and you will simply make money

Oh and one more thing- more than 1-2 trades a day...and you are for a fact overtrading!

Dont listen to them commission hungry assholes! churn baby churn is all they think of you!
Focus!

Wow. An excellent post. I can't comment on the markets you're talking about because I don't follow them, but the general trading advice is just excellent.

 

[tonster01]

Wow. An excellent post. I can't comment on the markets you're talking about because I don't follow them, but the general trading advice is just excellent.

Thanks Pazienza...I know how frustrating it was when I was starting out too trying to figure everything out etc...there is so much crap out there and we get inundated so if one person listens to it...then it will be good!

 

[TimYoung]

Yea sure, there is certain market conditions when the ted will actually trade as mean reverting and this market is not it!
Interest rates are too low be if you chart it up..its actually trending not meanreverting.
I used pure prices and action following it. I am not going to actually give my strategy away as it took me quite a while to figure but the truth is dont focus too much on news, random movements at stupid times of day etc
Focus on how you are feeling
Are you tired-hungover or upbeat and alert?
Are your trades independent or are they the same as the 6 others on the ted desk as they all think its a good trade.
Stand along and dont be influenced.
Use the technicals but look at longer term on the indivual euribor and schatz rather than solely the ted. Use Bund and Buxl also as anticipatory indicators and above all...dont be a cu*t and get married to a losing position....admit when you are wrong and start again..much better for your psyche!
Extreme volatility at the min means reduce position sizes..not increase..or trade more...
Reason major markets are falling is institutions now sit back and assess/reduce positions until things become clear
A novice sees massive movements and opportunity that he could have dow traded 400 points...well you would have most likey lost it as easy

The above should give you more than enough of a starting point

But to sum up:
Its the psychology thats important...not trendlines, pivots, news, doji...moving averages , floating donkeys or any other crap...

Its the price now and what that price reflects on the emotions/psychology of the masses!

Bear this in mind and develop your own thoughts...and you will simply make money

Oh and one more thing- more than 1-2 trades a day...and you are for a fact overtrading!

Dont listen to them commission hungry assholes! churn baby churn is all they think of you!
Focus!

Great tips thanks.

I was lucky enough to be sat apart from my group after I had an argument with one of the guys so no more influence there.

I had similar thoughts about some of the things you said and I think I might have something now.

Alright see how it goes.

 

[Asatar]

Im on the course right now and this is how I'm finding it so far:

1 - The guys teaching it (Stuart + Pete) are great and their receptionist is damn fine.

2 - I'm in the 2nd week and basically all we've done so far is sit around quoting calendar spreads, placing orders and browsing the internet.

3 - Getting into this programme does not seem at all hard, there are some total morons around who fail at basic maths (i.e 74 + 9.5).

4 - We started with 33, down to around 22 currently but as far as I know, nobody has been asked to leave yet (although I could very easily be wrong).

5 - You do NOT have to put down any of your own money. They back whoever they think is good and then you have a 300 €/$/£ target per day and gradually increase your limits.

6 - You will be doing keyboard + maths tests twice a day every day. Basically they want you to be getting 35+ in the maths and sub 1-minute in the keyboard. Most people in my group seem to be around the 30ish mark in the maths and around 50-70 seconds for the keyboard (there are some people sub-30 already).

7 - You spend a LOT of time sitting around doing **** all. Working out all the spreads etc is so damn easy, you should have it down by the first Thursday, which means the next week will be spent waiting for the people who can't do basic maths to catch up.

8 - They start you trading around for fun on the Euribor which does not ever move... You will be trading spreads with a 1 or 2 clip and looking to take 2-5 ticks profit (not on the Euribor, but on whatever you move to in week 3). I would expect to make something like 150-200 profit per day on average.

Will update again in week 3!

 

[spreader_legger]

What do you need the keyboard skills for??

If you flunk, do they give you a chance as a sexcretary??

Im on the course right now and this is how I'm finding it so far:

1 - The guys teaching it (Stuart + Pete) are great and their receptionist is damn fine.

2 - I'm in the 2nd week and basically all we've done so far is sit around quoting calendar spreads, placing orders and browsing the internet.

3 - Getting into this programme does not seem at all hard, there are some total morons around who fail at basic maths (i.e 74 + 9.5).

4 - We started with 33, down to around 22 currently but as far as I know, nobody has been asked to leave yet (although I could very easily be wrong).

5 - You do NOT have to put down any of your own money. They back whoever they think is good and then you have a 300 €/$/£ target per day and gradually increase your limits.

6 - You will be doing keyboard + maths tests twice a day every day. Basically they want you to be getting 35+ in the maths and sub 1-minute in the keyboard. Most people in my group seem to be around the 30ish mark in the maths and around 50-70 seconds for the keyboard (there are some people sub-30 already).

7 - You spend a LOT of time sitting around doing **** all. Working out all the spreads etc is so damn easy, you should have it down by the first Thursday, which means the next week will be spent waiting for the people who can't do basic maths to catch up.

8 - They start you trading around for fun on the Euribor which does not ever move... You will be trading spreads with a 1 or 2 clip and looking to take 2-5 ticks profit (not on the Euribor, but on whatever you move to in week 3). I would expect to make something like 150-200 profit per day on average.

Will update again in week 3!

 

[Asatar]

In week 3 now, currently trading Brent Crude flys, spreads and outrights. We got shown the contract required to stay as a full time trader and to progress to week 4. I shall quote the interesting bit:

8 Duration and Termination

8.4 Release from this Agreement: You may request early release from this Agreement during the initial minimum period of 3 years and we will in normal circumstances agree to a release if and only if you pay to us a pre-estimate of the loss of profit that we will suffer by such early termination. Our pre-estimate loss of profit is the higher of (i) £2500 per month and (ii) our split or profit share entitlement of the average net monthly trading profit that you make multiplied by the number of months remaining until the expiry of the initial minimum period.

Yes you read that right, its a 3 year contract and if you decide to leave early, you owe them £2500 per month for 36 - however many months you have been there (for 6 months it's £75k).

All I can say is goodbye Schneider.

 

[standardand]

thank you. I am in discussions with them for a while, but now I know what to do

In week 3 now, currently trading Brent Crude flys, spreads and outrights. We got shown the contract required to stay as a full time trader and to progress to week 4. I shall quote the interesting bit:



Yes you read that right, its a 3 year contract and if you decide to leave early, you owe them £2500 per month for 36 - however many months you have been there (for 6 months it's £75k).

All I can say is goodbye Schneider.

 

[Muzz]

Yes you read that right, its a 3 year contract and if you decide to leave early, you owe them £2500 per month for 36 - however many months you have been there (for 6 months it's £75k).

All I can say is goodbye Schneider.

Are you sure about this??

I'm starting the course soon, just need some advice.

 

[Asatar]

That's whats written in the contract, take it as you wish. The liklihood of them actually coming after you is slim I guess, unless you're an incredible trader making massive bank and you hop to another prop firm.

 

[robboj1]

I received an offer from STA to start the four week course next Monday. I have tried to do quite a lot of research on the course and the 6 months after, although the reviews seem to be very mixed the general feeling I get is to go for it. It may not be great, but you cant go wrong by just doing the four week free course. However what I'm really interested in is the future earnings. After the first 6 months, how much can i realistically expect to make? I would be grateful if anyone could put an actual figure on it, I notice others who have asked the question are getting replies similar to 'you won't make anything at a prop firm'. If anyone has worked at STA I would appreciate it they could put a figure on what I could expect in perhaps the first year on a month to month basis? (a year after the 6months of no money). I know its a hard question to answer due to the self employed aspect, but could anyone supply an average figure that people at this stage are earning?

Thank you!

 

[Asatar]

Someone in my group flat out asked this question in an informal Q&A. We were told after 2 years if you're still there, expect to be making 2-3x the average wage (50-80k). Impossible to really say though.

 

[lemarche]

What do you mean "average wage"? Average of which group?

 

[spreader_legger]

Depends on the strategy you use etc. etc.

The largest revenue earners for arcades are few & far between probably well below 10% (of the more experienced traders that is)

20% will eak out a living somehow .... perhaps 20k/30k per annum after costs if they're lucky.
The rest of it will be churn

This is from my personal experience for all that's worth. By all means go to Schneider if you like, you will learn some useful stuff .... although when I trained there, the only contract I signed was the self employed LLp agreement

Hope that helps

 

[konesh]

Hi
does that income 25 -30 K get income taxed? or regarded as spread betting money?

Depends on the strategy you use etc. etc.

The largest revenue earners for arcades are few & far between probably well below 10% (of the more experienced traders that is)

20% will eak out a living somehow .... perhaps 20k/30k per annum after costs if they're lucky.
The rest of it will be churn

This is from my personal experience for all that's worth. By all means go to Schneider if you like, you will learn some useful stuff .... although when I trained there, the only contract I signed was the self employed LLp agreement

Hope that helps

 

[spreader_legger]

you gotta be kidding me

Hi
does that income 25 -30 K get income taxed? or regarded as spread betting money?