Mastering the game.

[rols]

In other words you take his word for it. This subject needs no further discussion - let's more on....

Spell checker needed.....:cheesy:

 

[SOCRATES]

There are you see...two kinds of "fun"...

Consider a classroom and how there is a boy or several boys in this classroom who persist in playing the fool in class at every opportunity and have "fun"...yes ?

Now consider the loner, who sits in class and learns and absorbs, and works diligently, and even uses break to swot, and does all his homework and revision assidiously...and then at the end of term passes all his exams...... with sparkling results.

The first group obtain mediocre marks and acceptable passes but the loner really gets top marks, and then he goes on to get a really good job for his age, with benefits, and perks etc., and then he gets promotion and moves on up the ladder fast, outperforming and outearning all his peer group.

The fun the loner is able to enjoy ultimately is a very different calibre of fun to that which the first group can ever even dream of.

Now who is the clever boy then ?

 

[the blades]

There are you see...two kinds of "fun"...

Consider a classroom and how there is a boy or several boys in this classroom who persist in playing the fool in class at every opportunity and have "fun"...yes ?

Now consider the loner, who sits in class and learns and absorbs, and works diligently, and even uses break to swot, and does all his homework and revision assidiously...and then at the end of term passes all his exams...... with sparkling results.

The first group obtain mediocre marks and acceptable passes but the loner really gets top marks, and then he goes on to get a really good job for his age, with benefits, and perks etc., and then he gets promotion and moves on up the ladder fast, outperforming and outearning all his peer group.

The fun the loner is able to enjoy ultimately is a very different calibre of fun to that which the first group can ever even dream of.

Now who is the clever boy then ?

As they say Soc, it takes all sorts. I wouldn't want to be the loner as you describe him, however clever he's become.

UTB

 

[SOCRATES]

As they say Soc, it takes all sorts. I wouldn't want to be the loner as you describe him, however clever he's become.

UTB

Clever...is not something anyone becomes...it is something someone is or is not.
I mention it because in an earlier post there is reference to having fun during the learning process. The point I am making is that the hard work comes first....and the fun arrives afterwards, and not the other way round.

 

[jacinto]

Clever...is not something anyone becomes...it is something someone is or is not.
I mention it because in an earlier post there is reference to having fun during the learning process. The point I am making is that the hard work comes first....and the fun arrives afterwards, and not the other way round.

I just have to agree with that. no 2 ways about it.

 

[the blades]

Clever...is not something anyone becomes...it is something someone is or is not.
I mention it because in an earlier post there is reference to having fun during the learning process. The point I am making is that the hard work comes first....and the fun arrives afterwards, and not the other way round.

maybe I missed your point. It reminded me of me and my sister. I would consider us of similar cleverishness , yet she met the description you describe through her early years, I went to the pub. And to be fair, she got the bigger house, the bigger car etc.

My point was that she paid a big price for the fun she has now (I wont digress here).

My wife consoles me - we have four toilets in our house. I smile back and remind her it's OK. I can only crap on one anyway.

And those days "in the pub" (insert your pleasure) were, and are, worth it

UTB

 

[SOCRATES]

maybe I missed your point. It reminded me of me and my sister. I would consider us of similar cleverishness , yet she met the description you describe through her early years, I went to the pub. And to be fair, she got the bigger house, the bigger car etc.

My point was that she paid a big price for the fun she has now (I wont digress here).

My wife consoles me - we have four toilets in our house. I smile back and remind her it's OK. I can only crap on one anyway.

And those days "in the pub" (insert your pleasure) were, and are, worth it

UTB

Yes I agree.

The point is...the bigger the price as you say, the bigger the prize and not the smallest effort with the greatest results.

 

[ducati998]

Clever...is not something anyone becomes...it is something someone is or is not.
I mention it because in an earlier post there is reference to having fun during the learning process. The point I am making is that the hard work comes first....and the fun arrives afterwards, and not the other way round.

Soccy

clev·er /ˈklɛvər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[klev-er] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective, -er, -est. 1. mentally bright; having sharp or quick intelligence; able.
2. superficially skillful, witty, or original in character or construction; facile: It was an amusing, clever play, but of no lasting value.
3. showing inventiveness or originality; ingenious: His clever device was the first to solve the problem.
4. adroit with the hands or body; dexterous or nimble.
5. Older Use. a. suitable; convenient; satisfactory.
b. good-natured.
c. handsome.
d. in good health.

I accept that "clever" may well be a function of nature.
Learning, however, is both a function of nature + nurture

Is it possible to learn to be successful in the market, owning little or no "cleverness"?

jog on
d998

 

[TheBramble]

And then there are those who waltz easily through life. Expending little to no effort, attaining the highest honours, winning the top trophies, seemingly able to tackle any task or subject with consummate ease and achieving success that is as instant as it is total – while enjoying every minute and having a really great time.

And others that will swot and work hard and spend every moment of their long waking day putting in the graft and doing the hours - and achieve but mediocre results.

It’s neither fair – nor not fair – it just is.

The fact is, without Aptitude and Inclination, very little can be hoped to be accomplished in any endeavour - regardless of one’s raw talents and skills or one’s formative or ambient milieu. With them, some limited successes are almost certainly assured.

But without Passion, there is absolutely no possibility at all of every attaining mastery over anything. You can’t manufacture Passion, nor can you fake it. You either have Passion for something or you don’t. You’re not necessarily born with it, and when you do have it, you don’t necessarily retain it. ‘It’ appears to do the choosing: The Who and Where and When and What, not you.

The real trick is to recognise when this signal event occurs, to fully grasp the opportunity and to develop and utilise it to its full. The Universe will reciprocate in spades on those rare occasions when such recognition occurs and richly compensate those few individuals who are ready and waiting.

Mastery is a constant state of mind. An Awareness. An Attention. A willingness to follow one's Passions wherever that may lead.

 

[new_trader]

In other words you take his word for it. This subject needs no further discussion - let's more on....

No, I don’t take his word for it. Either my point is deliberately missed or my past efforts to explain are inadequate. I can’t understand why you agreed to my “tacit understanding” post? In any case, I am not going to persist.

Instead, let me quote two excerpts from a book that summarise my philosophy.

“I may say here that in my own experiences of years I have always found that generalisations about speculation or about the philosophy of trading are listened to hopefully – in the hope of hearing later, as a reward for their optimism, exactly what to do to make money. Even the professional traders, and ,of course, to an immeasurably greater degree the average customer of the average broker, will yawn if they have to listen to analyses of why men like Keene or Woerishoffer or Livingston have made millions – at times. But the moment you begin to tell them concretely how a man began with 100 shares of a stock at 66 and pyramided till he was carrying ten thousand shares on which he finally made twenty-three points profit in seven weeks, they will listen with all the ears the Lord gave them as well as those the ticker has fastened to their souls. ”

“I know that when I discuss Livingston’s maxims and rules for trading in the abstract the listener is not interested.”

 

[new_trader]

Clever...is not something anyone becomes...it is something someone is or is not.
[edit]

Exactly....Precisely.

 

[Citizen2007]

Clever...is not something anyone becomes...it is something someone is or is not.

Sorry Socrates i disagree with you here. I think everyone is born with the same capabilities, to be as celver or as unclever as they want in their life. Some people lose this early in life through their experiences and never look back, others never become aware of it, others are very aware of its.

So i think the determining factor between clever and uncelver is self awareness. Now this is something that everybody has the ability to develop, should they want to.

 

[Hoggums]

I fail to see where this conversation is going or what the point of it is. The problem with all this is that "clever" is not a definable quality.

Take David Beckham for instance. No one on here would say he is "clever" in the academic sense. Yet he plays (played) very clever football in his career. The same could be said for numerous footballers. You cannot put someone with an I.Q of 150 on the football pitch and expect him to be a professional, with or without training.

The same argument applies to trading....

 

[Citizen2007]

I fail to see where this conversation is going or what the point of it is. The problem with all this is that "clever" is not a definable quality.

Take David Beckham for instance. No one on here would say he is "clever" in the academic sense. Yet he plays (played) very clever football in his career. The same could be said for numerous footballers. You cannot put someone with an I.Q of 150 on the football pitch and expect him to be a professional, with or without training.

The same argument applies to trading....

Well said.

 

[SOCRATES]

Well said.

No, not quite.

Cleverness and intelligence are two very different things.

It is possible for someone to be clever but not intelligent, and it is possible for someone to be intelligent but not necesarrily clever with it.

Both are faculties that are innate, but they only appear in conjunction when the individual additionally posesses a high level of awareness.

Trading mastery requires both, not one or the other, plus very high levels of awareness as well.

For this reason I am led to the conclusion, and I say it again, that traders are born and not made, is one reason among a multitude of reasons.

 

[SOCRATES]

No, I don’t take his word for it. Either my point is deliberately missed or my past efforts to explain are inadequate. I can’t understand why you agreed to my “tacit understanding” post? In any case, I am not going to persist.

Instead, let me quote two excerpts from a book that summarise my philosophy.

“I may say here that in my own experiences of years I have always found that generalisations about speculation or about the philosophy of trading are listened to hopefully – in the hope of hearing later, as a reward for their optimism, exactly what to do to make money. Even the professional traders, and ,of course, to an immeasurably greater degree the average customer of the average broker, will yawn if they have to listen to analyses of why men like Keene or Woerishoffer or Livingston have made millions – at times. But the moment you begin to tell them concretely how a man began with 100 shares of a stock at 66 and pyramided till he was carrying ten thousand shares on which he finally made twenty-three points profit in seven weeks, they will listen with all the ears the Lord gave them as well as those the ticker has fastened to their souls. ”

“I know that when I discuss Livingston’s maxims and rules for trading in the abstract the listener is not interested.”

May I ?

You are absolutely right. Discussion in abstraction acts as an intellectual filter as a by product. It causes disinterest for the simple reason the listener is not able to transmute the information imparted but instead expects explanations as you would give to a child. It is very tedious and boring to have to continually do this with a topic that is very far from being childish in content, nature and application.

 

[black bear]

Clever...is not something anyone becomes...it is something someone is or is not.
I mention it because in an earlier post there is reference to having fun during the learning process. The point I am making is that the hard work comes first....and the fun arrives afterwards, and not the other way round.

I would agree with your first sentence.

Hard work does come first but not at the expense of FUN, if your not having fun while your learning, why bother to learn it, you have nothing to gain, you will never stay the course at whatever your learning, NEVER, :!: Your heart won"t be in it.

The person you describe in the earlier post, "the loner" sounds like one sad person to me, I would not disagree that they may end up in larger houses etc

I think Blades hits the nail on the head - you only use one toilet at a time.

The person spending what is our most precious resource TIME, swotting up in his or her breaks can"t in my opinion be that clever, if they were they would / should consider the downside first.

All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy or girl

You are born with your abilities and faults, you can improve on one and do your best not to exaggerate the other.

Quote Steve Ovett " you can train a donkey to run faster, but he won"t win the Derby"

A balenced life, is in my opinion preferable, :?:

I mean whats the point in being a master trader, or master anything, living in a monster pad with a couple of Porky"s in the garage if it as taken that much effort.

you would not no Fun if it slapped you in the face :!: Quite Im Verry Verrrrry Buzy, doing verry verrrrry important work :!: No place for Fun in here.

If you have skill and talent at something , obviously if you do not nurture it, it will fade.

On the other hand the Donkey, he excepted is limitations, he was aware of them from an early age when he was larking about in the paddock with the more gifted horses and donkeys.

With a bit of hard work will learn to run a little faster.

Quite clever really our little donkey because he never exposed himself to any real downside risk at all in my opinion.

AND HAD LOADS OF FUN

 

[Citizen2007]

No, not quite.

Cleverness and intelligence are two very different things.

It is possible for someone to be clever but not intelligent, and it is possible for someone to be intelligent but not necesarrily clever with it.

Both are faculties that are innate, but they only appear in conjunction when the individual additionally posesses a high level of awareness.

Trading mastery requires both, not one or the other, plus very high levels of awareness as well.

For this reason I am led to the conclusion, and I say it again, that traders are born and not made, is one reason among a multitude of reasons.

i agree intelligence and cleverness are very different. But like I said earlier and you say in your post above, awareness is the key.

If these qualities appear as a result of self awareness, then traders are not born. Self awareness is developed .

I dont think its intelligence that makes a trader. If that were the case then the success ratio would be higher because there are a lot of intelligent people out there.

There is another quality that separates intelligent people from successful people, in any field, that is a combination of attitude, desire and persistence.

 

[SOCRATES]

i agree intelligence and cleverness are very different. But like I said earlier and you say in your post above, awareness is the key.

If these qualities appear as a result of self awareness, then traders are not born. Self awareness is developed .

I dont think its intelligence that makes a trader. If that were the case then the success ratio would be higher because there are a lot of intelligent people out there.

There is another quality that separates intelligent people from successful people, in any field, that is a combination of attitude, desire and persistence.

Oui.

 

[TWI]

Just came across this quote and thought it very relevant to this thread.

"To see what is in front of one's nose requires a constant struggle." -- George Orwell, 1946