Mastering the game.

[Citizen2007]

Understanding on its own is not enough. The Game of Games demands more. Otherwise everyone could start trading 80 contracts straight away.

Yes you are right socrates. But what prevensts anyone who understands from trading 80 contracts straight away?

 

[black bear]

Yes you are right socrates. But what prevensts anyone who understands from trading 80 contracts straight away?

thanks for your earlier words,

Money

sorry :|

I think its the same thing that stops the young apprentice painter (me) from renovating a classic Cobra sports car in the 1st couple of years at the job.

Confidence in ones ability, converting all attained knowledge instictively into action.

I have absolute confidence in my ability and know the exact extent of it in my own trade EXACT and because that degree of knowledge exists in one area of my life I can transfer the skills to another, but more importantly recognise when my skills are lacking in a certain area.

I think its a great loss to all that we do not have proper apprenticeships anymore. You can"t hurry learnin, there is no short cuts to becoming a master at anything.

NO SHORTCUTS its hard, so you have to have fun in your heart and a passion for what your doing or you will not learn, it will just be a daily drudge

 

[Lightning McQueen]

Rose Tinted Glasses

thanks for your earlier words,

Money

sorry :|

I think its the same thing that stops the young apprentice painter (me) from renovating a classic Cobra sports car in the 1st couple of years at the job.

Confidence in ones ability, converting all attained knowledge instictively into action.

I have absolute confidence in my ability and know the exact extent of it in my own trade EXACT and because that degree of knowledge exists in one area of my life I can transfer the skills to another, but more importantly recognise when my skills are lacking in a certain area.

I think its a great loss to all that we do not have proper apprenticeships anymore. You can"t hurry learnin, there is no short cuts to becoming a master at anything.

NO SHORTCUTS its hard, so you have to have fun in your heart and a passion for what your doing or you will not learn, it will just be a daily drudge

Hi dev

Not sure I agree on the apprenticeship comment, sure it was a good grounding in what was expected of you when you became a "man" but as a mere "boy". Looking back I dont think from my experience much of use was learned in my apprenticeship, it was a joke really, almost pathetic. I didn't start to learn until I left that company went to another outfit on wide bodied jets, realising I actually knew nowt I had to teach myself damn quick what was what. Just when you think you know enough, something crops up that'll stump you. The learning never stops. which in turn may hold back the confidence as you will always know in the back of your mind that there is always so much more to learn.

I did mine in airframe and systems, Im qualified to work on live aircraft, military and civil. I was never over keen working on them due to my poor training, IMO training is better today than it was 25 odd years ago. Most of the guys that I show what to do now are in the main far more switched on for their age than I ever was.

Hey, at least I knew my limitations and didn't cause any planes to crash! oh and I'm currently working on military contracts so your safe to fly for the time being :loll:

Lightning

 

[THE WOLF2222]

Directing the 'Fun' - Motivation and Reward

Devilbis,

Going back to your comments,

I see what you mean there by the learning process needing fun as a catalyst.

You have to be MOTIVATED. It's part of the brains natural reward system to seek pleasure (whether it's defined as fun,enjoyment, or whatever).

It is impossible to be motivated towards a task where no pleasurable outcome can be attained.

Motivation can see us through short term unpleasantness, so long as a pleasurable outcome can be foreseen. Hence it is far harder to adopt a long term focus, than to seek immediate pleasure. I.e. Seeking the enjoyment of making a quick buck and feeling an instant reward and ultimately losing long term, opposed to re-aligning the mindset towards a long term goal, and guaranteeing that the pleasure is experienced in the quest and attainment of mastery.

 

[black bear]

Devilbis,

Going back to your comments,

I see what you mean there by the learning process needing fun as a catalyst.

You have to be MOTIVATED. It's part of the brains natural reward system to seek pleasure (whether it's defined as fun,enjoyment, or whatever).

It is impossible to be motivated towards a task where no pleasurable outcome can be attained.

Motivation can see us through short term unpleasantness, so long as a pleasurable outcome can be foreseen. Hence it is far harder to adopt a long term focus, than to seek immediate pleasure. I.e. Seeking the enjoyment of making a quick buck and feeling an instant reward and ultimately losing long term, opposed to re-aligning the mindset towards a long term goal, and guaranteeing that the pleasure is experienced in the quest and attainment of mastery.

Very good , I agree we don"t want to take a quick buck or we would not be following the simple rule of

RUN YOU PROFITS when we get this one mastered you can really have some FUN

The new Surfers need a quick fix of FUN to keep going and fuel their interest in the activity, so their Mentors have invented boards that are easy to ride (Trend Lines, S & R and SMA"s) they can hop on and off the little Waves and come to no real harm.

Some stop there , some give up , some take it to the next level and see the truth of what you have just written and decide to advance and take their place with the Big WAVE riders and have some serious FUN

 

[black bear]

Hi dev

Not sure I agree on the apprenticeship comment, sure it was a good grounding in what was expected of you when you became a "man" but as a mere "boy". Looking back I dont think from my experience much of use was learned in my apprenticeship, it was a joke really, almost pathetic. I didn't start to learn until I left that company went to another outfit on wide bodied jets, realising I actually knew nowt I had to teach myself damn quick what was what. Just when you think you know enough, something crops up that'll stump you. The learning never stops. which in turn may hold back the confidence as you will always know in the back of your mind that there is always so much more to learn.

I did mine in airframe and systems, Im qualified to work on live aircraft, military and civil. I was never over keen working on them due to my poor training, IMO training is better today than it was 25 odd years ago. Most of the guys that I show what to do now are in the main far more switched on for their age than I ever was.

Hey, at least I knew my limitations and didn't cause any planes to crash! oh and I'm currently working on military contracts so your safe to fly for the time being :loll:

Lightning

Hi Lightning

I respect your answer , I think you fail to see what you were taught, but obviously put into practice.

I thought that a firm kicked out a young man at 21 for the reason you have given, by that age he was to big for his boots and would learn no more if he remained, so had to go out in the real world where he realised he new nothing which humbled him.

He applied himself with what he did no and was good enough to observe and learn off others around him in his new work place. 2-3 more years he is ready

HE IS TIMESERVED

When you left the 1 st Firm a new timeserved man arrived at that firm , he was a new young timeserved individual with passion and skill he moved that firm on and gave them new skills so they could train the next masters on the ist bit of their journey.

 

[Profitaker]

These hasty and ill considered comments you make........ just for the sake of contradicting...give the clue you are not as expert as you think yourself to be.

The Markets are the closest you can get to multidemensional chess apart from Rubik's Cube...and they are in fact......if you were to pause to consider....."The Ultimate Game" or even better still.... "The Game of Games".

My dear chap, you are clearly confused, and not for the first time I note. Let me explain……there is a vast difference between haste and brevity, much the same as there is a vast difference between Chess, Rubik’s Cube, Badminton, Croquet, (I could go on) and trading stock markets. If you insist on making a comparison between Trading and some sort of “game” the closest you’ll ever find is Poker and I’ll leave you to ponder the “why”. However, and more to the point, there really is no value added in making any such comparison because…..trading is trading, and Chess is Chess, and Badminton is….and…..you’ll get my drift I’m sure. Or am I ?

You also seem to be struggling to understand the use of the word “contradicting” because in the original post there was nothing to contradict – as I read it (and my comprehension of the English language is far superior to yours it seems) he was canvassing opinion, and now he has some, mine included, with no contradiction possible.

Besides, it strikes me that anybody wanting to acknowledge, or worse still be acknowledged, for having “mastered” trading is merely looking to boost his or her ego, else why does it matter ? It is also widely acknowledged that a traders profits are inversely proportional to a traders ego, which perhaps goes someway to explaining your personal profitability in trading vanilla options recently ?

 

[zupcon]

Yes you are right socrates. But what prevensts anyone who understands from trading 80 contracts straight away?

I suspect that if I asked you to walk across a 10 foot long wooden plank, suspended 6 inches above the ground that you'd probably be able to do that.

Now if we take exactly the same plank and suspend it between two buildings, 200 feet above the ground, would you still be able to walk across it with the same degree of confidence ?. I suspect most wouldn't

and yet Its same plank, same thickness, same stiffness, same width, and yet something suddenly changes, and what was once considered trivial, now seams somewhat more daunting.

 

[Profitaker]

An excellent analogy Zup.

My only observation is that while the task itself hasn't changed, the risk / reward profile certainly has !

 

[TheBramble]

I suspect that if I asked you to walk across a 10 foot long wooden plank, suspended 6 inches above the ground that you'd probably be able to do that.

As an aside (not intended as a derailment, but mods, please feel free to delete this one if anyone bursts into tears…)…

A corollary to that well known ‘walk the plank’ exercise, was at a personal development seminar. The presenter posed that same question to a woman picked from the attendees. She was happy to walk it at floor level, but disinclined to do so 70 stories up.

Trying to ‘force’ her to walk the plank at that frightening number of floors above street level between two buildings, he suggested, by way of potential motivation, he was holding one of her children and would let them drop to their death if she didn’t take that walk. She asked “Which one do you have?”…

Nothing to do with this thread, but then not much is at this point.

 

[Citizen2007]

I suspect that if I asked you to walk across a 10 foot long wooden plank, suspended 6 inches above the ground that you'd probably be able to do that.

Now if we take exactly the same plank and suspend it between two buildings, 200 feet above the ground, would you still be able to walk across it with the same degree of confidence ?. I suspect most wouldn't

and yet Its same plank, same thickness, same stiffness, same width, and yet something suddenly changes, and what was once considered trivial, now seams somewhat more daunting.

You are right zupcon. The reason i would not be able to walk across with the same degree of confidence is that somewhere in my experience there is a level of pain associated with a fall from the higher level, thus the apprehensions about it. If i could not associate that fall with any sort of pain or negative experience, would i walk that plank with complete confidence?

As with trading. the reason many cannot trade 80 contracts straightaway is the negative experiences gained during the learning curve always rear their ugly head.

Lets look at that from another angle. Say you were an experienced and highly skilled trader, with complete understanding of the markets, trends and trends within trends. You then decided to teach me what you understand and how you trade based on that understanding of pure logic. Now i am assuming that because your trading is based on pur logic, all the parameters for entry/trend/exit etc are all clearly defined. All i have to do is follow your simple set of rules. Allowing for the small slippages that may occur, do you think i should be able to trade successfully ?

I am thinking along the lines that yes, if i am half capable, then i should produce good results. If I you then told me to trade 80 contracts, would I be confident enough or not, Not having experienced any confusion in the markets from the very begining ?

 

[Citizen2007]

An excellent analogy Zup.

My only observation is that while the task itself hasn't changed, the risk / reward profile certainly has !

I agree. Risk is an all important factor when trading, but I think negative experiences can over ride this.

If you produce winning trades 70% of the time and trade at £10 per point, what would hold you back from trading at £100 or even £200 per point (other than capital)?

The pain of losing the 30% is far greater than the wins of the 70%.

 

[black bear]

My dear chap, you are clearly confused, and not for the first time I note. Let me explain……there is a vast difference between haste and brevity, much the same as there is a vast difference between Chess, Rubik’s Cube, Badminton, Croquet, (I could go on) and trading stock markets. If you insist on making a comparison between Trading and some sort of “game” the closest you’ll ever find is Poker

Hi Profitaker,

Just spoted this, very nice and what a game, I once folded back to back ACE"s at 5 card stud, I new my method was sound , I new I had to make em pay to see em,

I NEW HE HAD ME , I trusted my instict

I FOLDED , I DID"NT NEED TO SEE EM , I NEW HE WAS A POOR PLAYER , I NEW HE WOULD CALL.

I did"nt need to pay to see em anyway, he showed the world his cards after the hand when everybody else had folded to

I cast mine to the middle face down :| Id learnt plenty in that hand and was well in front before the hand anyway.

 

[black bear]

I suspect that if I asked you to walk across a 10 foot long wooden plank, suspended 6 inches above the ground that you'd probably be able to do that.

Now if we take exactly the same plank and suspend it between two buildings, 200 feet above the ground, would you still be able to walk across it with the same degree of confidence ?. I suspect most wouldn't

and yet Its same plank, same thickness, same stiffness, same width, and yet something suddenly changes, and what was once considered trivial, now seams somewhat more daunting.

Hi Zupcon,

Yes but only because 6" from the ground your HARD Stop is inplace, I suspect that if the invited walkers of the plank at 200 ft were issued with a parachute you would get many more takers, double parachute and I think 75 % may have a go

 

[zupcon]

The reason many cannot trade 80 contracts straightaway is the negative experiences gained during the learning curve always rear their ugly head.

That is very good point and to be honest, one that Ive not really considered previously.

Lets look at that from another angle. Say you were an experienced and highly skilled trader, with complete understanding of the markets, trends and trends within trends. You then decided to teach me what you understand and how you trade based on that understanding of pure logic. Now i am assuming that because your trading is based on pur logic, all the parameters for entry/trend/exit etc are all clearly defined. All i have to do is follow your simple set of rules. Allowing for the small slippages that may occur, do you think i should be able to trade successfully ?

Personally, I don't think that anyone without experience would be able to trade successfully under those conditions.I have yet to meet anyone who will consistently do exactly as they are instructed. That applies not just to trading, but any endeavor.

I am thinking along the lines that yes, if i am half capable, then i should produce good results. If I you then told me to trade 80 contracts, would I be confident enough or not, Not having experienced any confusion in the markets from the very begining ?

I think the problem here is that you would have to have an awful lot of belief in me and my abilities, and my system, and for most people, that would be extremely difficult. Whilst I may be happy allowing someone else to trade my capital, I certainly couldn't follow anyone else's calls.

 

[black bear]

That is very good point and to be honest, one that Ive not really considered previously.



Personally, I don't think that anyone without experience would be able to trade successfully under those conditions.I have yet to meet anyone who will consistently do exactly as they are instructed. That applies not just to trading, but any endeavor.



I think the problem here is that you would have to have an awful lot of belief in me and my abilities, and my system, and for most people, that would be extremely difficult. Whilst I may be happy allowing someone else to trade my capital, I certainly couldn't follow anyone else's calls.

Hi Zupcon,

I think you are right, the more we understand the market and the more we understand the risks involved in trading we take steps to control them.

By the time we are trading 80 contracts 1-2 % of our risk capital, The journey we have taken to get that far would indicate we are a master trader.

I don"t no yet what those lessons will be to attain that degree of ability in order to trade 80 contracts as if it were just 1

But I am skilled enough and honest enough regarding my own ability to no that if I am good enough my account will tell me so, and before to long I will be trading 80 contracts instead of 1.

I will deal with each lesson when it presents itself, make adjustments to my method and mindset and the rest will look after itself. I think

 

[Profitaker]

If you produce winning trades 70% of the time and trade at £10 per point, what would hold you back from trading at £100 or even £200 per point (other than capital)?

In a word - nothing. But it's not that simple. The average is meaningless without considering the standard deviation - Socrates will explain all, of that I'm sure

develbis -

A quality play !

 

[Citizen2007]

Personally, I don't think that anyone without experience would be able to trade successfully under those conditions.I have yet to meet anyone who will consistently do exactly as they are instructed. That applies not just to trading, but any endeavor.

I partially agree with you. I think that depends on the calibre of person . I have seen and have been involved in both situations, where all are taught the same thing in the same way, you get some who can follow your instructions precisley and then there are those that cannot. Assume we go with the one who can.

I think the problem here is that you would have to have an awful lot of belief in me and my abilities, and my system, and for most people, that would be extremely difficult. Whilst I may be happy allowing someone else to trade my capital, I certainly couldn't follow anyone else's calls.

For a newbie who knows nothing the belief in his mentor is always there at the beginning, otherwise he would not have selected him. The belief will remain intact all the while the student follows the rules because he will be generating the kind of results that he expects . This added confidence further increases his beliefs.

I think the lack of belief is only a product of the inconsistency of expectant results and the result of shooting in the dark so to speak.

I think the difficulties in trading their own or someone elses capital derive from the fact that most trades are taken on a confidence level that maybe not very reassuring, whereas if you knew why you were making thsoe decisions and understood how to deal with and spot the changes in the oncoming conditions, because you had been shown, would your attitude towards the capital be different ?

 

[Citizen2007]

Hi Zupcon,

Yes but only because 6" from the ground your HARD Stop is inplace, I suspect that if the invited walkers of the plank at 200 ft were issued with a parachute you would get many more takers, double parachute and I think 75 % may have a go

Good point. I suppose if you know the level of risk and if it falls well within your comfort levels, then that alone reduces its impact.

But on the other hand, most traders use a stop (i assume), yet the fact of knowing what their loss is still holds them back from increasing their exposure.

It has to be more. Possibly what you said on an earlier post about the level of confidence.

 

[SOCRATES]

My dear chap, you are clearly confused, and not for the first time I note. Let me explain……there is a vast difference between haste and brevity, much the same as there is a vast difference between Chess, Rubik’s Cube, Badminton, Croquet, (I could go on) and trading stock markets. If you insist on making a comparison between Trading and some sort of “game” the closest you’ll ever find is Poker and I’ll leave you to ponder the “why”. However, and more to the point, there really is no value added in making any such comparison because…..trading is trading, and Chess is Chess, and Badminton is….and…..you’ll get my drift I’m sure. Or am I ?

You also seem to be struggling to understand the use of the word “contradicting” because in the original post there was nothing to contradict – as I read it (and my comprehension of the English language is far superior to yours it seems) he was canvassing opinion, and now he has some, mine included, with no contradiction possible.

Besides, it strikes me that anybody wanting to acknowledge, or worse still be acknowledged, for having “mastered” trading is merely looking to boost his or her ego, else why does it matter ? It is also widely acknowledged that a traders profits are inversely proportional to a traders ego, which perhaps goes someway to explaining your personal profitability in trading vanilla options recently ?

Please yourself and continue to think what you like. I am not interested in pursuing silly circular arguments with you.I have better things to do.