Having an edge.

[PKFFW]

Who are "we" exactly ?

"We" is a Royal form of self address, befitting a monarch or head of state or suchlike.

Are you now implying you have some sort of Royal Connection by using the collective pronoun "we", or does it have some other meaning ?

The thing is...and returning to the topic of edges...as Agatha Christie used to say..."nearly everyone overlooks the significance of the obvious".

That is only one meaning or use of the word we.

We is also, and more commonly I might add, used to refer to oneself and another or others as a singular group. eg: the captain of a soccer team might say "we won the game" referring to the team and himself as a singular group.

Cheers,
PKFFW

 

[PKFFW]

...And not to put too fine a point on it...

...the matter of having an edge and keeping it...is a singular prerogative and not a plural one...since the acquisition of an edge...( a major edge is permanent and a minor one temporary) is a matter of singular application and not a collective effort.

Its very nature of exclusivity and priviledge defines and qualifies it, enough said on that.

I forgot to add....

You cannot complain that I do not tell you everything.

Are you saying that an edge, either major or minor(a distinction I believe you are only making in hopes that others will ask you about your supposed "major" edge), can only be acquired singularly?

If that is what you are claiming you must surely know that your claim is false. Any endeavour, and trading is no different, can be undertaken by more than one person working together and in concert. There is no universal, mystical law to do with conduct, ability or merit that says trading can only be successful if you work alone.

Cheers,
PKFFW

 

[new_trader]

...the matter of having an edge and keeping it...is a singular prerogative and not a plural one...since the acquisition of an edge...( a major edge is permanent and a minor one temporary) is a matter of singular application and not a collective effort.

Its very nature of exclusivity and priviledge defines and qualifies it, enough said on that.

I forgot to add....

You cannot complain that I do not tell you everything.

Thanks SOCRATES and I agree completely. It is refreshing to have input from a TRUE professional.

 

[new_trader]

Are you saying that an edge, either major or minor(a distinction I believe you are only making in hopes that others will ask you about your supposed "major" edge), can only be acquired singularly?

If that is what you are claiming you must surely know that your claim is false. Any endeavour, and trading is no different, can be undertaken by more than one person working together and in concert. There is no universal, mystical law to do with conduct, ability or merit that says trading can only be successful if you work alone.

Cheers,
PKFFW

PKFFW,

The claims are not false, they can't be...impossible. Suffice to say that anyone with an edge would be(and quite rightly) unwilling to share it, if you had one you would understand. You would see the obvious, it would be screaming at you. In case you are not convinced, even persuaded, just ask yourself what happened to the charity trading account on this site? After incurring losses of £500 it seems to be swept under the carpet and we are asked to get on with our lives. It is something T2W is trying to live down. However, it highlights one important contradiction and that is the notion that sharing ideas results in a collective edge. No, it doesn’t, the only thing it has produced so far is £500 worth of losses. So, what benefit can be gained by sharing anything with anyone here? General trading philosophies maybe, but not edges. I would want to see a number of people post live profitable trades rather than just ‘talking’ incessantly about ideas.

 

[counter_violent]

...And not to put too fine a point on it...

...the matter of having an edge and keeping it...is a singular prerogative and not a plural one...since the acquisition of an edge...( a major edge is permanent and a minor one temporary) is a matter of singular application and not a collective effort.

Its very nature of exclusivity and priviledge defines and qualifies it, enough said on that.

I forgot to add....

You cannot complain that I do not tell you everything.

Is this some kind of high up shelf in an outside toilet ?

It could be handy for storing beer I suppose, although a fridge may be more convenient.

 

[new_trader]

Is this some kind of high up shelf in an outside toilet ?

It could be handy for storing beer I suppose, although a fridge may be more convenient.

AND HEEEERE COMES THE CAVALRY....


Jacinto...please?

 

[LondonUSTrader]

Edge

I would have thought a more pertinent issue would be “Having the Ability to Create Edges”.

An edge exists at a moment, or collection of moments in Time. It does not live forever. Neither does it mean when it goes it is gone forever either. Even those who stand solidly by such long supported and apparently solid edifices such as Elliot, Gann and Fibs can find times and instruments where their relative charms and potions ‘work’ better than others and where their knowledge of how to implement the minutiae of their results of their research into their chosen discipline to more effective outcomes over time yields better results than simply sticking to what they were doing with it perhaps even just a few months earlier. Edges are born, develop and grow from study, research, experience, immersion and usage in the markets. If any one edge existed long enough for it to be recognised generally as such, it would be gradually traded out and would therefore never have been recognised as such in the first pace – and they aren’t – ever.

The ability to keep discovering new edges is key, not the miserly hoarding of ones you might currently have.

To assume any one of us negatively impacts our trading profit potential by interacting with others on these boards is naivety at its Zenith. The markets work on aggregate and to personalise your losses in this way does you genuine harm and takes your focus off where it should be centred. It’s just you – and the market – not other individuals here or anywhere else.

You could, if you had one, share your ‘edge’ with the bods on this and every other board and all your friends and family and you know, or you should know, full well, the vast majority would not trade it the way you trade it and would suffer greater to lesser results than do you. Those that did trade it exactly as you do would soon tire of it, or modify it or in some way diminish its efficacy. See my point below regarding lack of focus and change.

As for the ‘90% fail’ stat (to be proven), that is unlikely to do with not having an edge, but more to do with not managing risk or managing money or calculating position size, or getting the direction or momentum wrong, or getting it right, but at the wrong time or selecting the wrong instruments in the wrong phase of the cycle or looking at too detailed a level for the selected trading timeframe or not keeping the big picture in mind and any combination of this and many other factors.

An edge need be nothing more glamorous than the trading of an established trend or a breakout or Support & Resistance confirmations. Not much of an edge, but with all those other bits & bobs mentioned above in hand, it’ll provide you with an income. So yes, some ‘edges’ do ‘withstand the test of time’. But more of an issue is the trader themselves – even with basic and winning setups like those above, is the real issue them standing stand the test of time or is it the failure of the trader themselves to do so – do they tend to change themselves over time and therefore induce change in their methods and systems and often negatively impact their edge themselves? I tend to feel this happens far more frequently than any market induced changes to edges.

In my view, it does make sense to share your information with others to the extent that their operation upon your research can lead to useful feedback into other areas which you might not have originally considered. There are many traders on here that appear to specialise in going off at tangents to the main topic and it’s often a delight to me to find I often end up in totally disparate areas to that initially discussed and which have yielded immense benefit on many occasions – and not necessarily in trading.

Basically, you get back big time what you put out – can’t be any other way - and that works for both good and bad. It’s been said elsewhere that the market mirrors ‘you’. The fact is, and far more importantly, you mirror ‘you’…

To take your advice to its logical conclusion, this site should not exist as its prime objective is the sharing of information and exchange of ideas. Given the current and general mode of operation though, you are safe. No one will ask you to yield your weighty secrets on the inner workings of the market, nor force you to yield your special edges that you appear to want to guard so closely. But they will continue to be quite happy to share with you the fruits of their thinking and research so that you may perhaps find that edge for yourself. Which is why I presume you are still here?

There are many many edges in the market. Some last a very short time, some last years then disappear, some seem to be permanent.

Nothing wrong with guarding your secrets. Actually, I have never known any traders who have real sustainable edges to give them away. They may tell you general things about their edge, but never reveal enough so you could replicate them. In my experience, the real sustainable edges are very far from any strategies you see revealed on these message boards. Not that they are anything dramatically different, just usually involve thinking outside of the box.

There is no question that competition, or trader effects, does impact the effectiveness of some edges. I have seen many times edges working well for years then suddenly stop working because the edges have become popular and too many people are trying to do the same thing. The durability of an edge depends not only on market conditions, but whether other traders are able to figure out what you are doing and either try to trade the same way or front run you. Of course, if you reveal what you are exactly doing it increases the possibility that your edge might eventually fail due to trader effects. The market has become more efficient over time and there are less edges than previously, IMHO. Part of this is due to increasing competition. As for telling others what you do. It depends on your own view. I think it probably increases the chance of what you are doing being affected, but it might not affect what you do at all. It depends on whether other traders start acting on your information at the same point that you do. And it is not something you know until it actually happens.

The mental side of trading is very important as well. You may have an edge, but not have the mental ability to trade it consistently. I have known many good researchers, many good traders, but few good researchers and traders. The challenge always is to combine the two, which are essentially different skill sets.

I use trading boards primarily as entertainment and to relax. Although, they can be useful as well. It is always interesting to see what your 'competition' is thinking. You can learn many things from the 5% of high quality posts on your average message board and from the low quality posts as well.

 

[TheBramble]

No. I'm here simply to annoy you.

Time to chalk up yet another failure then.

 

[TheBramble]

For clarity, I think it important to underline that when I talk of an edge, I mean a real edge that goes out into the market, makes a nuisance of itself with other traders and makes you a profit over a period of time, i..e more than once.

What an edge wouldn't be, for instance, is a one-off 3rd party failed options write on a mythical exchange for which no known feed or visibilty exists that merely goes out into the ether and makes a nuisance of itself generally. That wouldn't be an edge in my book. Or more correctly, it IS an edge, but not one you or I would necessarily want.

LondonUSTrader - the permanent edges are there as I mentioned, the good old trends, S&R etc. for sure, but so few remain happy to use them in their classic form. Which is just fine by me. The thing with 'current' edges is that it's unlikely most traders who have them couldgive them away. There's usually a lot of unconsciously unexplicated mechanics involved.

 

[PKFFW]

PKFFW,

The claims are not false, they can't be...impossible. Suffice to say that anyone with an edge would be(and quite rightly) unwilling to share it, if you had one you would understand. You would see the obvious, it would be screaming at you. In case you are not convinced, even persuaded, just ask yourself what happened to the charity trading account on this site? After incurring losses of £500 it seems to be swept under the carpet and we are asked to get on with our lives. It is something T2W is trying to live down. However, it highlights one important contradiction and that is the notion that sharing ideas results in a collective edge. No, it doesn’t, the only thing it has produced so far is £500 worth of losses. So, what benefit can be gained by sharing anything with anyone here? General trading philosophies maybe, but not edges. I would want to see a number of people post live profitable trades rather than just ‘talking’ incessantly about ideas.

I don't know if you are being intentionally obtuse or not so I will assume you have simply not understood my point.

I did not say sharing ideas and knowledge leads to an edge. I said that it is possible for more than one person to jointly come up with an edge together. Socrates' assertion that gaining an edge is a matter of singular application and can not be a collective one is simply wrong.

Your example of the charity account only proves that the charity account as a whole was not operating with any sort of edge. It does not prove that those who made trades in the account do not themselves have an edge. Nor does it prove that it is not possible for them to collectively come up with an edge if they applied themselves to that end.

If you still fail to see my point then please re-read the pertinent posts and contemplate the meaning before replying again. Once you understand my point fully, if you disagree that is your perogative of course.

Finally, you have no way of determining if I have an edge or not. Nor do you have any way of determining if I would agree with your assumption that "anyone with an edge would agree.......". Hence I would suggest you stick to discussing your topic and not such topics you have no knowledge of.

Cheers,
PKFFW

 

[rols]

You seem to be showing an extraordinary lack of good humour right now, rols

We're with you, jacinto.

Db

What I was objecting to was nanny sticking in her big milky bosoms like some kind of Big Mother watching over us.

Socco does not need mummy leaping to his defense, his hide is thicker than a rhinos'.

He is the original teflon trader of Trade2Win, and for that reason makes a frustratingly formidable opponent in debate.

How about moderating the moderators? Do the members really want this kind of zero tolerance intervention on these boards?

Debates about trading are immotive and subjective. Take these away and we are reduced to polite and tedious discussions about the merits of moving averages and Forex brokers.

 

[black bear]

While I agree with the sentiments within your post n_t, its an interesting discussion point that has done the rounds on this board before, the difficulty in finding common, ground without the whole thing collapsing into farce is the problem...too many different levels of skill from the complete noob, to the pro, all with an opinion and possibly a chip or two on their shoulders.

fwiw here's my take on competing, edges, sharing info, etc.

At the starter levels I dont think competitiveness even exists, the stakes are so small that the market doesn't even notice, of course the winners are taking money off the losers but its not in a competitive sense, its just a case of being right or wrong on a trade. At the higher pro levels, yes its competing.

sharing info, its a must at my low level...I crave it, I need my daily fix of info and I share what little I know. I take it as fact that this will not happen in the higher pro levels...selfish sods

Edges are an elusive subject, just when I think I may be onto one, I always search the net and low and behold its in the public domain, as is most all ways of capturing market movement. if someone actually defines a successful edge and can constantly beat the market, it will be discovered even if you never share it, the trades themselves will give away the grail. rotating brokers every trade would hide it for a while I suppose. but common methods of capturing movement are fine for me to learn with, without beating myself up if its an edge or not.

90% of traders fail because that is the way the game is made. Its a huge pyramid scheme, where only the observant will possibly survive...if at all, only the elite keep the money, we are just trying to relieve them of some of it.

Lightning

Hi,
Nice simple explanations are best.

THE MUCH TALKED ABOUT EDGE, MMM"mm

I agree pretty much with above, The Edge and more specifically your edge is just the sum of all your aquired knowledge and skill being applied in a logical way to try and extract a profit. The law of the jungle, the higher up the food chain the better your potential edge.

An example, When I was younger I played snooker at a top snooker club 1980"s in the North West, 20 pros were regular players there. Day in Day out you watched them practice and play, you new their game intimately, their strengths and weakness"s.
If we were presented at a match with odds of 9/2 Jim Wych (who) to beat John Parrot we took the wager without thinking about it.
Mr William Hill was applying all his aquired knowledge and skill (EDGE) we were applying all our aquired knowledge and skill (EDGE) We were young and daft, not very bright, we did not even apply ourselves in any way to extracting a profit, risk management mmmm"m

but who do you think won the most money ?

1. me and my mates
2. Mr William Hill
3. Punters at the venue
4. keen punters at the venue who follow the sport

Answer

1 Mr William Hill
2 me and my mates
3 keen punters at the venue
4 Punters

1 - 4 all profited that day and applied their EDGE but the punters in group 3 & 4 profited the least if at all because their EDGE was so blunt that a paper cut hurts more and does more damage.

And thats how it shall remain if you want to have a chance of winning you have to get yourself an EDGE. Your edge will improve if you read, observe others applying their skill, try their method, change it to suit you and the timeframes you want to trade, obey the rules given you to keep you safe.

You have to be honest with yourself regarding the EDGE and how much of an EDGE you in fact have.

If you get an EDGE look after it and don"t keep trying to make it better or you will lose it.

You have to learn to spot a tempory EDGE when it presents itself,

Tempory EDGE example,

Back to the Snooker story, "yawn" I was lucky enough to watch Alex Higgins practice for the 1982 World finals, I was younger than the 1st story and did not realise that I was watching a man who"s skill made him one of the best snooker players to ever play. This mans EDGE and knowledge/ Love of the game was such that he could win on a given day almost by just deciding to, That was the Key he had to decide and he had. From January in 1982 A man who last won a world championship in 1972 practiced from 8am sharp to 10 pm at night with just a sandwich break in between. This was the first time in ten years an exceptional talent had applied himself. He had been earning a living from the game he loved by touring the country entertaining anybody willing to pay the entrance fee. Steve Davies had made more money from the sport in 2 yrs than Alex had in the past 15 years. Alex had decided to win this years Worlds and reclaim the throne he believed was his. ( oh ye and get his paws on some of that easy money) I asked a top pro and manager of the club if he was worth a bet, he said not, "he always plays like this" ? 146, 140, 147,146 more 100 breaks than I care to remember. Giving 100 start a frame to very competent players and blowin them away.

The Point ~ I let another man influence by decision to lay Alex to win the Worlds. I had spotted a tempory EDGE that existed but failed to act with authority so did not profit this time.
I was higher up the food chain in fact if it was a company in the FTSE 100, I was sat at the bloody board room table.

THE EDGE on this occasion was the fact that ALEX had decided to practice for the 1st time in 10 years so the advice given to me "that Alex always plays like this" was incorrect and not conected to the job in hand and I failed to see this. Mr William Hill sure didnt no it. Sure Alex does always play like this but Alex was applying himself and not taking is skill for granted he was init to win it for the 1st time in 10 years. Alex Higgins 1972 world champion 1st time of asking, 1982 world champion 1 st time of asking.

let no man say he is wild. The man applies his EDGE at will, ye he"s got talent for sure, a talent he trained into himself with thousands of hours practice when he was a kid. In exibition he really displays his talent and entertains the paying public under any conditions any where and was never late (well if he was he always made up)

When its time to Win a real match he new where to find his EDGE
(3months on the practice table no breaks)
No drugs or drink I saw except the odd 1/2 lager. If he indulged it must have been in the 8 hours per day he was"nt on the table.

He played anybody willing to pick up a cue for very small stakes indeed, I found that he shared his skill and knowledge learned EDGE with any one who asked/fellow profesionals included and most of the time he was stable and friendly.

Feel free to correct me and improve my EDGE

 

[dbphoenix]

What I was objecting to was nanny sticking in her big milky bosoms like some kind of Big Mother watching over us.

Socco does not need mummy leaping to his defense, his hide is thicker than a rhinos'.

He is the original teflon trader of Trade2Win, and for that reason makes a frustratingly formidable opponent in debate.

How about moderating the moderators? Do the members really want this kind of zero tolerance intervention on these boards?

Debates about trading are immotive and subjective. Take these away and we are reduced to polite and tedious discussions about the merits of moving averages and Forex brokers.

First, jacinto's post was directed at both of you.

Second, you're over-reacting.

Third, if you don't want any moderation at all, try ET.

 

[Profitaker]

As the original poster has suggested, nobody would give away an edge, not a real edge anyway, and I absolutely agree.

However, that is not to say there is any harm in assisting others to learn the trading ropes. On the contrary and rather cynically, they (the learners) provide liquidity (don't you just hate that word) and the profits for those that actually have an edge in the market.

It costs nothing to light another candle, just don't supply it with fuel too !

 

[SOCRATES]

What I was objecting to was nanny sticking in her big milky bosoms like some kind of Big Mother watching over us.

Socco does not need mummy leaping to his defense, his hide is thicker than a rhinos'.

He is the original teflon trader of Trade2Win, and for that reason makes a frustratingly formidable opponent in debate.

How about moderating the moderators? Do the members really want this kind of zero tolerance intervention on these boards?

Debates about trading are immotive and subjective. Take these away and we are reduced to polite and tedious discussions about the merits of moving averages and Forex brokers.

You are absolutely right in every thing you say, and I wholeheartedly agree.

But you have to understand and indeed accept, that everything you read on public bulletin boards is mainstream and has to be contained as mainstream, because no sooner is an attempt made to elevate a discussion a little bit, than ...you know what happens next.

And so, it is not prudent to discuss with strangers "out of the box" stuff. That stuff can only be discussed in confidence between traders who know each other personally, who are at the same level of proficiency, who understand, who experientially prove they understand, and ultimately, who qualify to be trusted with really sensitive and valuable information.

 

[Profitaker]

And so, it is not prudent to discuss with strangers "out of the box" stuff. That stuff can only be discussed in confidence between traders who know each other personally, who are at the same level of proficiency, who understand, who experientially prove they understand, and ultimately, who qualify to be trusted with really sensitive and valuable information.

Fine words of wisdom from an acknowledged trading sage.

 

[SOCRATES]

That is only one meaning or use of the word we.

We is also, and more commonly I might add, used to refer to oneself and another or others as a singular group. eg: the captain of a soccer team might say "we won the game" referring to the team and himself as a singular group.

Cheers,
PKFFW

I am sorry to have to tell you but you are wrong.

There are two meanings to the word "we".

One is the Royal we and the other is the Proleteriat we.

The Royal we is a contradiction in terms, and the Proleteriat we is harmonic in it's meaning, which goes beyond collective identity and stretches to unity of purpose, sharing of posture, homogenuity of viewpoint, sharing of opinion, sympathy with emotion, and in all this sharing that takes place, we now have a crowd, and this crowd which previously was composed of individuals each able to think for themselves, now supresses and subjugates the thinking of individuals and collectivises them into the thought and actions of the crowd, the herd if you like.

But one must totally disregard the opinions of the herd, the crowd, you see, because this morass of shared thinking is nearly always wrong, at least from a professional viewpoint devoid of all emotion and ego, which is what counts. Nothing else matters, hence "the herd is the Goat"...not my words, but those of a very experienced trader of long ago, who coined the phrase.

That's not inflammatory is it ?

But what happens next is that the herd, having abdicated individual responsibility with regard to individual thought, now becomes a gang.

 

[new_trader]

I don't know if you are being intentionally obtuse or not so I will assume you have simply not understood my point.

I did not say sharing ideas and knowledge leads to an edge. I said that it is possible for more than one person to jointly come up with an edge together. Socrates' assertion that gaining an edge is a matter of singular application and can not be a collective one is simply wrong.

Your example of the charity account only proves that the charity account as a whole was not operating with any sort of edge. It does not prove that those who made trades in the account do not themselves have an edge. Nor does it prove that it is not possible for them to collectively come up with an edge if they applied themselves to that end.

If you still fail to see my point then please re-read the pertinent posts and contemplate the meaning before replying again. Once you understand my point fully, if you disagree that is your perogative of course.

Finally, you have no way of determining if I have an edge or not. Nor do you have any way of determining if I would agree with your assumption that "anyone with an edge would agree.......". Hence I would suggest you stick to discussing your topic and not such topics you have no knowledge of.

Cheers,
PKFFW

My original post, if you read it carefully, asked:

"If a trader has an edge that they have discovered through assiduous study and practice (as opposed to a weekend of curve fitting), an edge that consistently wins money on balance and withstands the test of time, why would they give it away simply because the person asking isn’t making enough money from their own system?

If you have an edge, why don't you tell us all what it is?

The fact that you disagree with SOCRATES means you really haven't got an edge, you're right, I don't KNOW if you do or don't, but it's highly unlikely. The way you keep arguing...

 

[SOCRATES]

Are you saying that an edge, either major or minor(a distinction I believe you are only making in hopes that others will ask you about your supposed "major" edge), can only be acquired singularly?

If that is what you are claiming you must surely know that your claim is false. Any endeavour, and trading is no different, can be undertaken by more than one person working together and in concert. There is no universal, mystical law to do with conduct, ability or merit that says trading can only be successful if you work alone.

Cheers,
PKFFW

The reply is negative.

This is because if you have to ask to have it explained to you then you cannot be a battle hardened, really experienced trader.

The problem is that it is a chicken and egg situation.

In order to be able to understand and accept the concept you have to have evolved to become a battle hardened, really experienced trader.

By that time no explanation is necessary.

Therefore discussion of it is pointless, unless it takes the form of a discussion between equals.

Curiously, the stage at which a really experienced, battle hardened trader arrives at this plateau of proficiency is as a result of his or her individual effort.

This is because sharing the effort does not work, as sharing it does not teach the lesson that has to be learnt, realised and accepted.

Therefore you are wrong again, I am sorry to have to tell you.

There is no mysticism as such with regard to Merit, Ability and Conduct.

It is just that so few have the correct faculties in harmony that it is as if it were mystical, because it is not mainstream.

Therefore a permanent edge is not mainstream.

A minor edge (temporary) may or may not be.

The true edge is the one that is permanent, and for the reasons above, (which are some and not all) the holders are not willing to share. They are not transferable via the mainstream route.

This is another reason why sharing does not work.

The right to an edge is earned and not given.

I regret if this is frustrating to you, but it is a fact, and one of a cluster of facts.

 

[new_trader]

Time to chalk up yet another failure then.

"You’ll need to pretend in the beginning, but it gets much easier."

-TheBramble



NO PM'S OK??....OK???