Education is the key

[rossored]

Indeed they were.

Honestly, we (that is, the admins/moderators) like to give people a chance. He had several.

 

[SOCRATES]

OK I'll take your word for it - Its a shame though because some of the points he has made are unquestionably valid

How would you like it if you became the quarry of an obsessed stalker and serial pest, in the middle of :~

(a) running a position.

(b) commentating live and at the same time calling all the turns and
pinpointing significant levels and the absolute bottom.

How would you like to become the target of someone determined to contradict , insult , make false accusations, and disrupt the thread, when you are contributing something significant for the benefit and interest of members ?

What is more to the point is whether you yourself would be able to multitask in this way in a live environment.

It is easy for you to talk, but quite another matter to do it.

I occasionally post the progress of trades, live, as they develop, and I am able to pick bottoms and tops with deadly accuracy, in real time, not to show off or for any other reason but only for the benefit of members so that aspirants can see it can be done, that is all.

 

[dbphoenix]

This thread isn't the place for it, but has anybody initiated a thread on how to choose a mentor? If not, where would be the most appropriate place to do so?

 

[SOCRATES]

Hello db, more to the point, and the other way round if you please, it is not so much a question of aspirants choosing a mentor, but a mentor choosing aspirants fit and proper for this profession,
and then admitting them as apprentices.

The possessor of the knowledge has the option and power to choose and not the other way round.

This does not imply in any way that I am seeking to choose or mentor anyone, thank you very much.

Kind Regards.

 

[rossored]

This thread isn't the place for it, but has anybody initiated a thread on how to choose a mentor? If not, where would be the most appropriate place to do so?

Jeez, that sounds like a thread just asking for trouble.

Can you imagine it?

Feel free to start one DB - this forum would probably be most appropriate, at least to start with. After that, I suspect the moderators-only "deleted threads - only to be opened in event of war" forum would be the best one.

 

[dbphoenix]

Hello db, more to the point, and the other way round if you please, it is not so much a question of aspirants choosing a mentor, but a mentor choosing aspirants fit and proper for this profession,
and then admitting them as apprentices.

The possessor of the knowledge has the option and power to choose and not the other way round.

This does not imply in any way that I am seeking to choose or mentor anyone, thank you very much.

Kind Regards.

Actually, it's both, thought those who look for mentors might be surprised to learn that the best mentors don't take anyone with a checkbook.

But there are things to look for when one is shopping around for guidance, and God knows there are plenty of people offering to provide it. If there were a thread on the subject somewhere, at least there would be something to refer people to and perhaps avoid what happened here (I don't know any ot the people involved in this particular fracas and don't much care since I'm not looking for trading advice, but this subject comes up pretty often and is what one might call "hot").

 

[dbphoenix]

Jeez, that sounds like a thread just asking for trouble.

Can you imagine it?

Feel free to start one DB - this forum would probably be most appropriate, at least to start with. After that, I suspect the moderators-only "deleted threads - only to be opened in event of war" forum would be the best one.

Actually, I can imagine it quite easily. But T2W is not the only website which has to deal with the thorny issue of assorted mentors, coaches, gurus et al touting themselves, even if the tout amounts to no more than a signature. Those who've been screwed by one or another might find his jaws clinching when he sees one of these signatures, much less any boasting about how much money so and so made today or how many student he turned down blah blah.

Yes, such a thread could easily turn into a free-for-all. But there are certain things to look for in a mentor, assuming that one knows just what it is that he wants from the relationship in the first place, which isn't always the case by any means. And if the mentor/guru/coach is unwilling to respond satisfactorily, then you and Sharky and whoever have cause to ask that they no longer refer to their services/prowess/etc.

There may be a problem with regard to advertisers who will brook no criticism and want it deleted. This was an issue "elsewhere". But the idea is worth considering nonetheless.

 

[SOCRATES]

It is not just "hot" it is virtually "radioactive".

But yourself see how it is that facts are presented and how it is that people are averse to facts, especially those which are plain for everyone to see.

This is because many people vainly and persistently chase a holy grail instead, against all warnings to the contrary.

And there you have it.

Kind Regards.

 

[dbphoenix]

It is not just "hot" it is virtually "radioactive".

But yourself see how it is that facts are presented and how it is that people are averse to facts, especially those which are plain for everyone to see.

This is because many people vainly and persistently chase a holy grail instead, against all warnings to the contrary.

And there you have it.

Kind Regards.

Not trying to nail anyone, Soc. I know as well as anyone that nearly all failures result from the refusal to develop a trading plan.

But if the shopper knows what to ask and the mentor doesn't respond satisfactorily, the shopper can go on his merry way without having spent a dime. Whether he then excoriates the mentor that almost was for the unsatisfactory response is more the shopper's problem than anything else. Every shopper has his own needs and wants, including the need to fail, and chacun a son gout.

 

[SOCRATES]

My Dear Chap, if this was a shopping mall these people find themselves in, it would be a different scenario to the one they find themselves in which is nothing of the sort.

The scenario they find themselves in is a relentless war for profits in which there is no room for experiments and nonsense, sentiment or impulsiveness.

In this regard also as you know very well yourself, it is stupid to ignore the experience of all who have gone before us who have documented what can be done and what ought not to be done.

It is therefore suicidal to proceed to do the opposite for whatever reason.

And my posture remains the same, as in my posts, Numbers 86 and 90, above.

Kind Regards.

 

[dbphoenix]

My Dear Chap, if this was a shopping mall these people find themselves in, it would be a different scenario to the one they find themselves in which is nothing of the sort.

The scenario they find themselves in is a relentless war for profits in which there is no room for experiments and nonsense, sentiment or impulsiveness.

In this regard also as you know very well yourself, it is stupid to ignore the experience of all who have gone before us who have documented what can be done and what ought not to be done.

It is therefore suicidal to proceed to do the opposite for whatever reason.

And my posture remains the same, as in my posts, Numbers 86 and 90, above.

Kind Regards.

I agree wholeheartedly. Which is why, if the gurumentorcoach is pushing a given system or method or whatever, the prospect ought to expect an audited trading record. On the other hand, if, like Tharp, the gurumentorcoach is offering counseling, a trading record is irrelevant. Or perhaps the gurumentorcoach is offering spiritual guidance. Or tantric massage. What the prospect has reason to expect will depend on what he wants. And if the gurumentorcoach can't provide what he wants and says so up front, then everybody's happy, though the prospect will have to keep looking.

Seems the thread I was suggesting is spinning itself. Any moderator who wants to move this somewhere is welcome to do so.

 

[JumpOff]

How to choose a mentor

A most interesting topic indeed. I suppose when I cam to T2W, I was hoping for and looking for a plan - a gizmo, a push this button when these three things happen kind of thing. I wasn't expecting anyone to publish such a plan, (if it really worked - why give it away - and wouldn't the market know and adjust for the fact that trader's are pushing that button?) I was hoping that elements of "the plan" could be garnered by studious reading.

I was well aware of the "washed out trader: successful trader" ratio, and being a skeptic at heart, I suspected that such a plan did not really exist, and although I kept my eyes open for "elements of the plan," my real goal was to find out, "Why do people put their money on the table when they don't understand the risk? What makes them think they have found the 'plan,' when in fact they are just part of the 98% who will become washed out?" I am still open to the idea that this whole board is nothing more than a magnificent, masterful PR exercise secretly sponsored by 'the broker and exchange association," designed to suck in newbies at the rate required to keep the brokers and exchange directors in mercedes and caviar. What if there is no 2% of successful traders?

And yet, in a backhand kind of way, I did find something more useful than 'the plan.' I was reminded that the good old "scientific method," is still the only method that humans currently have to quantify and measure things. Several members of these boards have gently (and not so gently) guided me back upon this path whenever I tried to drown myself in a mud puddle.

I was also reminded that some things can not be quantified or measured - this is the basic argument between plato and sophocles: how does one experience quality?

So how to choose a mentor, and what is one for anyway? In my mind, a mentor is someone who encourages you to keep defining and testing and experiencing until you are satisfied you know something. As DB points out, if they are in that 2%, they have no need of your money, and they choose to mentor because there is something satisfying in it for them.

I hope we don't confuse "paying for training" (which is a very useful and worthwile expenditure) with "finding and choosing a mentor."

Socrates has his finger on something important too - those who choose to mentor, probably don't have time to mentor every panting terrier who comes by. So they have to choose too.

JO

 

[dbphoenix]

So how to choose a mentor, and what is one for anyway? In my mind, a mentor is someone who encourages you to keep defining and testing and experiencing until you are satisfied you know something. As DB points out, if they are in that 2%, they have no need of your money, and they choose to mentor because there is something satisfying in it for them.

I hope we don't confuse "paying for training" (which is a very useful and worthwile expenditure) with "finding and choosing a mentor."

Socrates has his finger on something important too - those who choose to mentor, probably don't have time to mentor every panting terrier who comes by. So they have to choose too.

JO

In all fairness, I see nothing wrong with paying somebody to teach you a method/system. But one would have to be feeble-minded to hand over any such payment without proof that the method/system achieves the advertised results.

Nor do I necessarily see anything wrong with charging for hand-holding, as long as both parties understand from the outset that no method/system will be forthcoming unless it comes forth from the student/client/whatever. Tharp, Roosevelt, et al don't work for free.

What is required on the student's part is commitment, and it's been my experience that few people are willing to make that commitment unless they have something invested, in this case money. But, again, there must be a very clear understanding from the beginning as to what is to be expected and what is to be provided. One is far more likely to cry "screwed" if he was led to expect something he didn't get (though there are those who will do so in order to rationalize their own shortcomings no matter what).

The mentor/mentee relationship may be all warm and creamy, but it is a business relationship nonetheless. It is when either or both parties forget this that problems often ensue.

 

[SOCRATES]

A most interesting topic indeed. I suppose when I cam to T2W, I was hoping for and looking for a plan - a gizmo, a push this button when these three things happen kind of thing. I wasn't expecting anyone to publish such a plan, (if it really worked - why give it away - and wouldn't the market know and adjust for the fact that trader's are pushing that button?) I was hoping that elements of "the plan" could be garnered by studious reading.

I was well aware of the "washed out trader: successful trader" ratio, and being a skeptic at heart, I suspected that such a plan did not really exist, and although I kept my eyes open for "elements of the plan," my real goal was to find out, "Why do people put their money on the table when they don't understand the risk? What makes them think they have found the 'plan,' when in fact they are just part of the 98% who will become washed out?" I am still open to the idea that this whole board is nothing more than a magnificent, masterful PR exercise secretly sponsored by 'the broker and exchange association," designed to suck in newbies at the rate required to keep the brokers and exchange directors in mercedes and caviar. What if there is no 2% of successful traders?

And yet, in a backhand kind of way, I did find something more useful than 'the plan.' I was reminded that the good old "scientific method," is still the only method that humans currently have to quantify and measure things. Several members of these boards have gently (and not so gently) guided me back upon this path whenever I tried to drown myself in a mud puddle.

I was also reminded that some things can not be quantified or measured - this is the basic argument between plato and sophocles: how does one experience quality?

So how to choose a mentor, and what is one for anyway? In my mind, a mentor is someone who encourages you to keep defining and testing and experiencing until you are satisfied you know something. As DB points out, if they are in that 2%, they have no need of your money, and they choose to mentor because there is something satisfying in it for them.

I hope we don't confuse "paying for training" (which is a very useful and worthwile expenditure) with "finding and choosing a mentor."

Socrates has his finger on something important too - those who choose to mentor, probably don't have time to mentor every panting terrier who comes by. So they have to choose too.

JO

Yes, Jumpoff, you are absolutely right. There is a popular misconception that only the aspirant seeking mentoring has the benefit of choice. This in large measure is because there are many more needing a complete education in this regard than those willing and able to give it. Those in possession of the expertise must be the judges of who is fit to be admitted and who not, and not the other way round, this is without considering other factors you mention above.

Kind Regards.

 

[SOCRATES]

I have a dinner engagement this evening, and I am being called to get ready, but we will come back to all of this, not this evening but perhaps later during the weekend, asap.

 

[DaveJB]

I think 'How to pick a Mentor' (allowing, with deference to Soc, that the mentor actually is the chap who gets to make the decision) would be a useful exercise - provided people stick to posting 'I'd want them to show me X Y and Z' rather than getting hot and bothered about setting course/trader A off against course/trader B. It's something at least some members would find useful - there are any number of people coming into trading every year who blow through thousands and quit, some of them perfectly willing to spend money on decent training etc., but afraid to shell the cash out only to discover they've bought a lemon... 'Doji D.......' might be one such example.

Members with the cash to pay for it, and a desire to turn things around, might then benefit from the information, and use it to select a suitable trainer/mentor in whatever field they thought necessary. That the chosen mentor might then refuse to accept the would be traineee is accepted - I'm not suggesting that it's a one sided decision making process, but it stands to reason that there are a lot of people on here who have had training etc and learned from it... if only 'what not to do next time'. With some courses running at thousands a day 'what not to go for' can be rather important!

It does stand to reason that this wouldn't work if the heckling starts - it seems a shame to me that good information should be buried under heaps of abuse from those with an axe to grind, rather than deleting such posts I think there ought to be an 'Outraged of Tonbridge Wells' thread that they get transferred to.
(Apologies to non-UK members who probably didn't get that - just imagine a choleric old British Army officer, ex-Indian service, spluttering through his moustaches about an imagined slight and you'll get the idea).

Dave
(We could have a prize perhaps, none of this 'best portfolio' stuff, perhaps a booklet on reducing blood pressure or something, for the most incandescent post of the month. )

 

[DaveJB]

I think 'How to pick a Mentor' (allowing, with deference to Soc, that the mentor actually is the chap who gets to make the decision) would be a useful exercise - provided people stick to posting 'I'd want them to show me X Y and Z' rather than getting hot and bothered about setting course/trader A off against course/trader B. It's something at least some members would find useful - there are any number of people coming into trading every year who blow through thousands and quit, some of them perfectly willing to spend money on decent training etc., but afraid to shell the cash out only to discover they've bought a lemon... 'Doji D.......' might be one such example.

Members with the cash to pay for it, and a desire to turn things around, might then benefit from the information, and use it to select a suitable trainer/mentor in whatever field they thought necessary. That the chosen mentor might then refuse to accept the would be traineee is accepted - I'm not suggesting that it's a one sided decision making process, but it stands to reason that there are a lot of people on here who have had training etc and learned from it... if only 'what not to do next time'. With some courses running at thousands a day 'what not to go for' can be rather important!

Naturally this wouldn't work if the heckling starts - it seems a shame to me that good information should be buried under heaps of abuse from those with an axe to grind, rather than deleting such posts I think there ought to be an 'Outraged of Tonbridge Wells' thread that they get transferred to.
(Apologies to non-UK members who probably didn't get that - just imagine a choleric old British Army officer, ex-Indian service, spluttering through his moustaches about an imagined slight and you'll get the idea).

Dave
(We could have a prize perhaps, none of this 'best portfolio' stuff, perhaps a booklet on reducing blood pressure or something, for the most incandescent post of the month. )

Edited for Grandma

 

[timcannell]

How would you like it if you became the quarry of an obsessed stalker and serial pest, in the middle of :~

(a) running a position.

(b) commentating live and at the same time calling all the turns and
pinpointing significant levels and the absolute bottom.

How would you like to become the target of someone determined to contradict , insult , make false accusations, and disrupt the thread, when you are contributing something significant for the benefit and interest of members ?

What is more to the point is whether you yourself would be able to multitask in this way in a live environment.

It is easy for you to talk, but quite another matter to do it.

I occasionally post the progress of trades, live, as they develop, and I am able to pick bottoms and tops with deadly accuracy, in real time, not to show off or for any other reason but only for the benefit of members so that aspirants can see it can be done, that is all.

The answer is I wouldn't like it at all - are we saying that Trader28 forced realtime communication on Des ? - If not its always best to focus on what one needs to achieve at any given time to the exclusion of distractions.

By using the phrase 'deadly accuracy' do you mean 100% accuracy ? - thats what I take it to mean - please correct me if I misunderstand.

 

[timcannell]

The answer is I wouldn't like it - are we saying that Trader28 forced realtime communication on Des ? - If not its best to focus on what one needs to achieve at any given time to the exclusion of distractions

Furthermore, without actually being aware of all Tader28s posts, I accept he went beyond the limits of respectful criticism - but nevertheless some of his uncensored posts are unquestionably valid - I think some contributors ( as successful as they may be ) do feel their perception of things is the only take on the reality of trading

 

[SOCRATES]

I agree wholeheartedly. Which is why, if the gurumentorcoach is pushing a given system or method or whatever, the prospect ought to expect an audited trading record. On the other hand, if, like Tharp, the gurumentorcoach is offering counseling, a trading record is irrelevant. Or perhaps the gurumentorcoach is offering spiritual guidance. Or tantric massage. What the prospect has reason to expect will depend on what he wants. And if the gurumentorcoach can't provide what he wants and says so up front, then everybody's happy, though the prospect will have to keep looking.

Seems the thread I was suggesting is spinning itself. Any moderator who wants to move this somewhere is welcome to do so.

This is my post number 1000.

In consequence of this I am going to treat myself to say to you several things I have wanted to say for a long time, not only for your benefit, but also to whosoever it may apply to as well.

As you keep shifting your opinions around, I am going to deal with all the ones you express on this thread. I am going to start with this post and then we are going to carry on, as your statements deserve proper answers.

First of all this wordle "Gurumentorcoach". Let us break it up and see what it really means.

A guru is a teacher, a wise man, and not a lionised market personality as is frequently bandied about.

A mentor is only a mentor when the pupil has attained an acceptable level of knowledge and proficiency, and therefore does not require tutoring and basic teaching, but requires being progressed further by being correctly channelled and improved.

An aspirant cannot be mentored unless he or she is very well grounded and has already a very comprehensive databank of knowledge as a consequence of being taught correctly in the first instance.

I am telling you this because your misuse of terms is quite remarkeable.

A coach is an American term not relevant to academic learning in this country in the strictest sense of the word, but it may be applicable in a colloquial sense to a form of mentoring.

A guru or a mentor do not have any requirement to push anything, whether physical or abstract. It is only self appointed experts who push anyone to buy what they have to sell, as a consequence of self interest, notwithstanding that what they may be so actively promoting may already be outmoded and overwhelmed by new cutting edge methods, available only to very few.

Therefore in this regard, in this proffession, if any thing is buyable or is freely accessible in the public domain, it cannot have any power with any signifiant value welded to it as a consequence. You cannot buy an edge, because no one in his right mind who really has it is going to sell it.

Another factor to consider, is that it is the character of the individual that effectively separates
the successful ones from the failures, and character, the correct character for this, as I have explained many times ad nauseam, is what money cannot buy at any price.

Are you beginning to see that all of this in the ultimate analysis, is not about money, but about other different things ? These different things have to be in place before money can arrive to the aspirant, as a result of being able to trade successfully and consistently.

Because it is not about money, but instead it is about achievement, an audited trading record, as you suggest, serves no purpose other than to superficially impress, but according to a frame of reference not applicable to an aspirant, as he or she could not be expected to replicate it until evolving to true proficiency, relentlessy relliable proficiency, that is. That can take a very long time, and in some cases, can never be achieved for the reasons I state above.

This would serve to misdirect the aspirant towards attainment instead of achievement which are very different objectives. The aspirant ought not to be stimulated towards blind greed but rather towards attaining proficiency.

A more constuctive approach would be what I am able to do, which is to demonstrate in real time how an advantage can be taken of a given market situation as it occurs, whether long or short or, not at all, by abstention if conditions are not right.

In this regard, I have on several occasions on this website and others, demonstrated live, in real time, with time stamps to prove it, market development and price progression, pinpointing in advance of the event absolute tops, absolute bottoms, lateral moves, lateral ascending, lateral descending, their duration, and extent of progress, in real time that can be verified, as the time stamps on this or any other site do not lie - neither do the records of what transpires as there are ample sources to verify all of this.

Now this is really meaningful, not to rub it in to anyone, because not only can it be verified, by applying the most stringent examination to existing records independently held by members, but moreso because on occasions when I do this, there are invariably members and guests following the thread as it develops, and frequently one or more moderators.

All of the above is bound to upset you and I make no apology for this, since you are averse to, in your own words "predicting". Personally I see no point in endlessly discussing the merits of this or that. If all these basic mechanical tenets have to be churned again and again it can only mean that either people are baffled and require clarification, or that participants puport to be knowledgeable but persist in answering questions with further questions. You will see, that out of 1000 posts the number of questions I have ever asked on this website are, as a %age of my 1000 posts, in the very low single digit category.

Now Sir, going back to this question of calling the market in real time and pinpointing bottoms and tops....I do not view any of this as difficult. In fact, I am able to do it whilst running a position, as when you ultimately master all of this it is not difficult to multitask in this way.I do not make these posts whether in real time or in predictive mode (an all of them are right by the way, and deadly accurate) to demean or insult anyone.

Disregarding the unwelcome attention of detractors, some of them virulent and persistent, I do this because I can, furthermore, it is not done for self aggrandisment or to show off or to try to attract members to my methods or for any other reason but to show and to prove that all of what I do, can be done and is done.

Unfortunately, displays of this kind in a public forum are bound to attract controversy, stimulate rudeness and contradiction, and encourage envy. That is not my fault.

I will continue to post real time trades, as and when appropriate, with or without futurlolgical content for your collective interest.

I am sure that presenting real time trading in this way is more valid than displaying rows of numbers as you might suggest, not that I am seeking to promote my method, or to seek pupils, thank you very much.

On a closing note I will addionally say that spiritual guidiance or tantric massage are out of place in a forum purportedly provided for the interest and benefit of serious traders.

Kind Regards As Usual.