Education is the key

[dbphoenix]

I don't know why you'd think I'd be upset by any of this. In fact, I can't understand why you're taking it all so personally since I never mentioned you. What I said was that if one were considering any whatever one wants to call them and that the WOWTCT were touting a system that promised such and such results, then one would be justified in asking for a verifiable trading record. After all, if the WOWTCT can't make money with it, or "achieve" with it, why should the one who's looking bother himself with it?

If you can call tops and bottoms in real time, great. And I hope you got whatever you wanted to get off your chest off. But I continue to suggest that the client or student or whatever who is being told by the WOWTCT that the WOWTCT promises these or those results ask for a verifiable trading record before writing any checks. This, of course, does not mean that the WOWTCT is compelled to accept the check or the student/client/etc. But if you believe that verifiable trading records are irrelevant, then we'll just have to disagree.

 

[SOCRATES]

In all fairness, I see nothing wrong with paying somebody to teach you a method/system. But one would have to be feeble-minded to hand over any such payment without proof that the method/system achieves the advertised results.

Nor do I necessarily see anything wrong with charging for hand-holding, as long as both parties understand from the outset that no method/system will be forthcoming unless it comes forth from the student/client/whatever. Tharp, Roosevelt, et al don't work for free.

What is required on the student's part is commitment, and it's been my experience that few people are willing to make that commitment unless they have something invested, in this case money. But, again, there must be a very clear understanding from the beginning as to what is to be expected and what is to be provided. One is far more likely to cry "screwed" if he was led to expect something he didn't get (though there are those who will do so in order to rationalize their own shortcomings no matter what).

The mentor/mentee relationship may be all warm and creamy, but it is a business relationship nonetheless. It is when either or both parties forget this that problems often ensue.

Now my Dear Chap, now you contradict yourself again which shows you cannot have a deep understanding of what it is you are propounding above. The tutor cannot be the student.
The tutor is the tutor and the student is the student. The student cannot be the tutor, although I will tell you that I have taught, or rather have inadvertently had the misfortune to try to teach individuals who when totally half baked, have gone on to take advantage of the gullible by attempting to replicate what I presented to them correctly, badly.

In part it is because of an unwillingness to concentrate not on the message but on the style in which the message had to be delivered in an attempt to make it penetrate their thick skulls but moreso, by selecting the bits they like about all this and discarding the bits they do not like, and this is a disaster.

What you say about committment is totallly wrong. The problem is that you encounter individuals who pretend they are committed but secretly are not. They will sit and listen but will secretly have their own opinions as to how they are going to proceed when they leave the classroom. They disregard and ignore everything they are told about risk, about protective stops, about procedures, about tactics, about everything prudent you can and can not imagine and then go wild and make a mess of everything and then proceed to blame everyone but themselves.

The money to them cannot be important, otherwise they would behave differently, in a disciplined and prudent manner, in line with the recorded experience of all who have gone before us whose experiences we would be reckless and foolish to ignore, so it cannot be about money. It has to do with character flaws. If any activity has the ability to find and exacerbate flaws in an aspirant's character it must be this one.

To the extent that you will be amazed to hear that no sooner do they leave the classroom, they persuade themselves they know everything, do not need to remain in contact, do not need guidiance, or advice or anything else, but now proceed to do the opposite of what they ought to be doing.

For this reason I am not interested in teaching or mentoring anyone, whether paid or unpaid, thank you very much.

 

[dbphoenix]

Sorry, I thought you were done.

Again, I have no idea why you're taking this so personally, unless you think my posts are in some sort of code. Apparently there is a whole backstory here regarding you and various members of T2W. However, I have no idea what it is. Nor do I know who you are, other than what I've gleaned from the PMs you've sent me or the occasional post I've read. If you're not interested in teaching or mentoring anyone, that's okay by me. But so what?

As for the tutor being the tutor and the student being the student, we'll have to disagree there as well. A tutor who doesn't learn from his students is likely to be a pretty poor tutor. And the student who can't explain what he's learned to others hasn't learned much or learned well.

But, as I said earlier, there seems to be some sort of argument here that has little to do with what's going on, as if it drifted in from somewhere else. If I knew what it was about, I might participate. But, as it is, I can't work up the necessary motivation. If those who are looking for whatevers have gained something from my advice regarding trading records and the conditions under which to expect them, fine. If not, also fine. Not my money. Don't care.

 

[SOCRATES]

The answer is I wouldn't like it at all - are we saying that Trader28 forced realtime communication on Des ? - If not its always best to focus on what one needs to achieve at any given time to the exclusion of distractions.

By using the phrase 'deadly accuracy' do you mean 100% accuracy ? - thats what I take it to mean - please correct me if I misunderstand.

No, Trader 28 became a real nuisance in the middle of me calling the market correctly on Wednesday, live, level by level, with a torrent of abuse and aggressive contradiction without basis in fact.

The instrument in question was the Swiss Market Index Future, March contract, which fell from 6002 at the open, to close at 5944, only three points off the lowest recorded bottom for the day. I was successful in taking most of this.

It had nothing to do with Des. He unfortunately also was subject to abuse from him on another thread, for no apparent reason either.

The mods very wisely banned him.

When I talk of deadly accuracy, I mean very carefully judged entry and exit points, and the ability to pinpoint the extent of the move and its ultimate resolution.

 

[SOCRATES]

db, I am not picking on you. What I am telling you is the consequence of my experience, which is considerable. For this reason I have a view. And my view remains no matter what, as it would be
foolish and reckless for anyone to ignore the lessons that experience brings.

Kind Regards As Usual.

 

[Salty Gibbon]

When I talk of deadly accuracy, I mean very carefully judged entry and exit points, and the ability to pinpoint the extent of the move and its ultimate resolution.

Is your system / method of determining entry / exit points a mathematically based method or does it involve a degree of discretion Socrates ?

I am interested in this area because in my trading I am striving to minimise the level of discretion that I am required to apply.

 

[dbphoenix]

db, I am not picking on you. What I am telling you is the consequence of my experience, which is considerable. For this reason I have a view. And my view remains no matter what, as it would be
foolish and reckless for anyone to ignore the lessons that experience brings.

Kind Regards As Usual.

I agree that one should not ignore the lessons that experience brings. Which is why my advice remains let the buyer beware.

But since it seems that this spur is not going to become its own thread, all of this is likely off-topic anyway, so I'll just tuck it in, turn off the light, and tiptoe quietly away.

 

[SOCRATES]

Hello Salty,


It involves the ability to respond in a nanosecond when there is a clear indication that conditions are such that what is expected to happen or develop or continue, has a very strong propensity to do so, such that the risk element does not go away but it is minimised totally. It is exclusively a judgement call. Therefore it is totally discretionary.

It is not a mechanical process. In a mechanical process there are indicators or signals to trigger a response.

What I do is not mechanical and cannot be mechanised.

It is not wholly intuitive because it has a strong basis in visual mathematics based on familiarity with the instrument and the way it behaves and the reasons for that behaviour, but of course if we take it further it is as if the instrument "speaks" and tells us what it is going to do next.

Understanding the "language and tone" in which it "speaks" is the root core of being able to do it in the way I describe, which is the closest explanation I can give you. All of this is beyond what the chart is able to show.

KInd Regards As Usual.

 

[SOCRATES]

I agree that one should not ignore the lessons that experience brings. Which is why my advice remains let the buyer beware.

But since it seems that this spur is not going to become its own thread, all of this is likely off-topic anyway, so I'll just tuck it in, turn off the light, and tiptoe quietly away.

You mean well in the advice you offer, of that I have no doubt, but as a result of my experience, which is considerable, I know it to be surface advice and not really deep advice.

This is because trading records cannot show ability in actuality. They may illustrate the consequences of that ability in th past, with hindsight, and in any case those records could be fudged. Calling the market repeatedly accurately and date stamping it cannot be fudged.

Now this truly impresses and proves what requires to be proved. It has the disadvantage that it attracts detractors, some because they are stimulated to envy, others to disrupt, others to contradict. None of the detractors can succeed in repressing or contradicting what is patently obvious.

With regard to the student choosing what he wants to learn, I also hold my ground on this, on the basis that the student is a student because he does not know. The owner, the holder of the knowledge has a responsibility which is to progress the student along a path of correct study, and not what the student may fancifully convince himself he neds. To make it truly powerful and sincere, the aspirant has to be given what he NEEDS and not necessarily what he WANTS or thinks he WANTS.

He is not in a position to do this until he has become an expert and is able to demonstrate
repeated efficiency, on demand, in a nanosecond reflex, in the instrument in which he was trained. He cannot be allowed loose to do whatever he fancifully wants until he can demonstrate to have a total grip on everything he has been taught.

The development of total expertise and an edge comes later.

And my posture remains rock solid on this, as a consequence of my experience, which is considerable. You may opt to turn off the light and tiptoe away, but the problem remains and has to be adressed correctly, and not brushed aside.

There is too much of this brushing aside for my liking.

KInd Regards As Usual.

 

[SOCRATES]

And, as an Addendum to the above I will explain that a record can be fudged. There are several ways I imagine, such as:~

The record is not a true record on the basis it is the result of someone else's work, specially commissioned to do it, with power of attorney and profit sharing without the knowledge in advance of the final use to which the record would be put.

The record could be the result of luck, because although luck in trading is rare, it does occur.

The record could show results in a steady bull market , in which everything bought is profitable soorner or later.

Or it could show results in a declining bear market in which whatever is sold eventually can be bought back cheaper, at a profit.

But doing it live is another matter altogether, both on the long side and the short side and pinpointing turns and bottoms and tops, especially in a public forum for the benefit of those interested and any witnesses who care to act as observers, and that is truly powerful in comparison to what you suggest.

And there you have it.

Kind Regards Again.

 

[dbphoenix]

Since you continue to misunderstand what I'm saying, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[SOCRATES]

Fine, but my statements are the result of long experience and irrefutable supportable evidence to support them.

Kind Regards.

 

[Salty Gibbon]

Hello Salty,


It involves the ability to respond in a nanosecond when there is a clear indication that conditions are such that what is expected to happen or develop or continue, has a very strong propensity to do so, such that the risk element does not go away but it is minimised totally. It is exclusively a judgement call. Therefore it is totally discretionary.

It is not a mechanical process. In a mechanical process there are indicators or signals to trigger a response.

What I do is not mechanical and cannot be mechanised.

It is not wholly intuitive because it has a strong basis in visual mathematics based on familiarity with the instrument and the way it behaves and the reasons for that behaviour, but of course if we take it further it is as if the instrument "speaks" and tells us what it is going to do next.

Understanding the "language and tone" in which it "speaks" is the root core of being able to do it in the way I describe, which is the closest explanation I can give you. All of this is beyond what the chart is able to show.

KInd Regards As Usual.

Thank you Socrates.

I fully understand what you are saying and the position you are at is obviously one of being totally in tune with, and at one with both the instrument(s) you trade and the markets in which you trade them.

This can only come with many many years of experience I think unless you are especially gifted.

 

[JumpOff]

So Socrates,
If a trader aspires to trade in the manner you describe, is a mentor helpful? I remember one of your posts last year, in which you explained that your ability to understand the market was developed in part by your willingness to study market action to the exclusion of most other work and social activities. It sounded as though it were a long and lonely road - I don't recall you saying if anyone was guiding your efforts. Did you have a mentor during this time? If not, looking back now with hindsight, could a mentor have eased or speeded your progress?

JO

 

[SOCRATES]

I was never fortunate to have a mentor. I had to unravel all of this on my own, alone. I had to do this because there is really no one you can ask. There are several reasons for this.The answers you can ordinarily expect fall into the following categories:~

You may be told what you want or expect to hear.

You may be told something to put you off the track, deliberately.

You may be told the opposite.

You may be told the first thing that comes into the responder's mind through an unwillingness to make the effort to explain everything in detail in structure and how it fits and where.

You may be told what the respondent assumes or believes which may or may not be correct.

You may be misdirected on purpose.

You may be given an answer that contains a nugget of truth, but enveloped in nonsense.

You may be given an answer which is nonsense.

You may be given an answer, any answer that may be calculated to momentarily satisfy you on the basis that the responder does not know and is not willling to admit it.

You may be given an answer in the form of a question in response to your question.

You may be given another quesion in the form of an answer in reply again.

You may be given an answer back to front.

You may be given an answer upside down.

You may not be given an answer at all.

You may be given the correct answer, but very badly explained.

You may be given truly the correct answer, but because of your own frame of reference at the time, you may not be able to recognise it is the correct answer.

In consequence of all the above pitfalls, I went through a procees of unravelling the whole riddle, from A ~ Z , all on my own, in response to the challenge, that it could not be done. I then proceeded to try to wreck the theorem, by challenging every aspect of it. But all of it holds, and everything fits and works perfectly, so it can only be the right path.

It cost me a lot, in work, endless work, sleepless nights, isolation, with no guarantee of an end in sight.
When the end came, I simply could not believe it was the end. I could not accept it, probalbly as a force of habit. I continued to push. There was nothing more to explore, test, or examine.

The whole technical process took 27 years to finally refine. The mind aspect took I think 7 years to develop and another say 4 to finally perfect.

I would do it all over again if I had to. I can tell you it was a hell of an odessey, a tremendous adventure.

When I consider how and why and in what way I was able to develop my methodology, I do not think any mentor would have helped as none of this is mainstream. To try to find a mentor who is not mainstream would be like trying to find a needle in a haystack.

I have not yet found one who is not mainstream, that is the tragedy. The majority have a bias towards what is mainstream, and somehow get locked into it, as if they were prisoners of their own thought police.

It makes me feel as if I am wired differently, which I probably am.

 

[Salty Gibbon]

The whole technical process took 27 years to finally refine.

Not so long then really.

 

[SOCRATES]

Thank you Socrates.

I fully understand what you are saying and the position you are at is obviously one of being totally in tune with, and at one with both the instrument(s) you trade and the markets in which you trade them.

This can only come with many many years of experience I think unless you are especially gifted.

Experience is a process of making mistakes. We all make mistakes, this is normal. What is not normal is to become excited at a mistake, because it gives one the opportunity to recognise it and analyse the reason, and to take note of it and to take steps to correct it. in order to avoid it occurring again. The prospect of rectifying, of having the opportunity to rectify and refine, is truly exciting. Constant refining is what leads to mastery.

On the question of being gifted, I don't know. What I do know is that there is no subsitute for persistence. But it has to be properly targeted persistence. Persistence for its own sake is no good. Having a steel trap mind also helps, particularly if you are an accomplished "visual mathematician", which I am. This entails being able to spot anomalies and series in numbers by dealing with data streams in abstraction.

Another very useful faculty is the ability to remember numerical clusters accurately. What is more important stlll is to be able to recognise the significance of these numerical clusters when they appear as they have a direct linkage to intent. The ability to suss the intent must be the single most important ability any trader ought to cultivate and nurture, because at worst, without this ability, it would be very easy to see in a market action what the observer might persuade himself to see and interpret, rather than what there is, or is not. This might lead to a kind of clumsy gambling, which is a disaster.

 

[SOCRATES]

Not so long then really.

Ha ! Ha ! Not really. I started to show a precrocious interest in all this at the age of nine or ten, and perfected the art of extracting what information I could as charmingly and gracefully as possible from family friends and members of a Gentlemen's Club, to whom I am grateful to this day for their kind tolerance and patience with me at that time, both individually and collectively.

It did not go away during my early teens but resurfaced around my 18th birhtday. I started to tinker with Blue Chips and the account was held in my father's name as I was considered too young to properly run my own account. And that really started it.....and I have really, with varying degrees of intensity been involved since.

But it wasn't until my late twenties that I really got going. And the rest is legendary.

 

[Salty Gibbon]

Experience is a process of making mistakes.

Never was a truer word spoken.

Nice post #119 Soc

 

[Glenn]

"Experience is a process of making mistakes."

And (not wishing to steal any thunder from Albert) just to add...

The man who never made a mistake never did anything.
..plus...
It's ok to be wrong.
It's not ok to stay wrong.

Glenn