Why do they do it?

This is a discussion on Why do they do it? within the General Trading Chat forums, part of the Reception category; Originally Posted by DashRiprock well no its not is it. Well I just said it, so I won't repeat myself ...

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Old Jan 25, 2011, 12:20pm   #31
 
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Re: Why do they do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DashRiprock View Post
well no its not is it.
Well I just said it, so I won't repeat myself again.
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Old Jan 25, 2011, 12:25pm   #32
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Re: Why do they do it?

what you said is i think its a straw man argument is what they call it.

its like saying the only people that are good at football play in the premiership, and if you don't play in the premiership then you havent got anything to teach to anyone. and if you coach other people football then you must be crap at football because if you were youd be well minted and just lay by the pool and go to clubs and stuff.

the only people that would agree with that are ones that don;t know much about and arent very good at football :-/

as well trading isnt anything about being right or wrong.
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Old Jan 25, 2011, 12:34pm   #33
 
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Re: Why do they do it?

No, it's like saying those who can play football at a decent level will go play it rather than coach Wayne Rooney/Drogba and so on. Look at the demographic of football coaches and you'll see that playing football at a professional level is not an available option to them. So your analogy falls to pieces.

As for being right or wrong. It is. You set aside some capital which enables you to expose yourself to risk for a certain amount of time in the market. Either your trade works out in which case you're successful or you enter the trade and it spikes against you x pips very suddenly and takes you out. The latter case may be very unlucky, but in the time you took a position and exposed yourself to the risk you were incorrect to do so for whatever circumstances and may no longer hold a position for when the anticipated move occurs. There are ways around this of course, but being correct in a trade is only as relevant if you hold a position.
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Old Jan 25, 2011, 12:36pm   #34
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Re: Why do they do it?

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Originally Posted by DashRiprock View Post
what you said is i think its a straw man argument is what they call it.

its like saying the only people that are good at football play in the premiership, and if you don't play in the premiership then you havent got anything to teach to anyone. and if you coach other people football then you must be crap at football because if you were youd be well minted and just lay by the pool and go to clubs and stuff.

the only people that would agree with that are ones that don;t know much about and arent very good at football :-/

as well trading isnt anything about being right or wrong.
Right but if you paid 5 grand to someone marketing themselves as a premiership footballer and they turned out to be some fat guy in a pub with a replica shirt you'd feel ripped off.

And that is in effect what happens here, vendors claim to be successful traders but when you dig deeper you always find there are deception and lies just beneath the surface.
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Old Jan 25, 2011, 12:39pm   #35
Joined Jan 2011
Re: Why do they do it?

well look obviously there are going to be bad examples of people paying loads of money for courses and things which are bad

but to say that everybody who coaches or trains other traders is a phoney is well wrong.
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Old Jan 25, 2011, 12:47pm   #36
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Re: Why do they do it?

Some people simply like teaching or helping others,I know some people can't get their head round the idea but it happens.

Nothing to do with trading but I personally know someone who was a university lecturer he retired a few years back and financially has no need to work again,but he now does a bit of part time stuff for the OU because he loves to teach.
I know other people who give up spare time to do charity work when they could be earning money elsewhere.

It isn't just about money for some,though I do accept the fact that the majority of vendors are full of it.
I've always thougth that old phrase "Those who cant teach" is one of the biggest load of bollox going anyway,not to mention half the people who trot it out on these forums will have no problem telling someone in another thread that they should read Van Tharps stuff,a guy who can't trade so teaches.
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Old Jan 25, 2011, 12:49pm   #37
Joined Jan 2011
Re: Why do they do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masquerade View Post
No, it's like saying those who can play football at a decent level will go play it rather than coach Wayne Rooney/Drogba and so on. Look at the demographic of football coaches and you'll see that playing football at a professional level is not an available option to them. So your analogy falls to pieces.

As for being right or wrong. It is. You set aside some capital which enables you to expose yourself to risk for a certain amount of time in the market. Either your trade works out in which case you're successful or you enter the trade and it spikes against you x pips very suddenly and takes you out. The latter case may be very unlucky, but in the time you took a position and exposed yourself to the risk you were incorrect to do so for whatever circumstances and may no longer hold a position for when the anticipated move occurs. There are ways around this of course, but being correct in a trade is only as relevant if you hold a position.
but there are traders who trade as well as coach or help other traders. so thats like playing on the football team with rooney and drogba and beckam and all the other best footballers and me and you on the team as well. even if we are in the reserves and play different matches, if they like you they can help you and you can learn alot from them and become a better trader yourself.

the second bit, all i can say is that i think that is a very damaging way of thinking for a trader but whatever works for you i guess
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Old Jan 25, 2011, 12:52pm   #38
 
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Re: Why do they do it?

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Originally Posted by Masquerade View Post
ok...let's look at the options:

Trade 1: Be a successful trader. Make millions and go enjoy your leisure time when not trading. Take time off if you wish and so on.

Trade 2: Be a successful trader but instead choose to not trade and charge people a fee to be coached, maybe £100/month and get 30 regular subscribers if you're lucky. Spend all day in a chat room and distributing material to these people, not to mention all the admin stuff that goes along with running a site and ensuring people pay up. Be committed to spending every single trading day in front of a screen coaching and guiding people with little freedom to take a day off or do something enjoyable with your life.

Looking at those 2 trades if someone is competent they will be able to see which is the better of the 2.
How about...

Trade 1:

You are a successful trader. Last year you made £260,000. (£5,000 each week on average) You earn a whole lot more than your university chums who all went into being Doctors and Lawyers. Everyone knows you are a success and you feel proud about that but you are also almost burnt out. You used to think that one day you would find a system, and then sit on a yacht with a laptop. Infact the first question you asked when you joined a trading firm early in your career was "Why is that guy at the back who makes £200k a week the first one in and the last one out??"

At any rate, you're earning well but you're working every hour watching the market because you realise that's what it takes. A day off? Yes, you took your Porsche for a spin down to the local Sainsburys last weekend. But you could only afford an hour because it was Non-Farm Payrolls later on and you need to feel the rhythm constantly when you are discretionary and not systematic.

Lately, your life has been a bit more stressful than usual and you struggle to stay constantly on the ball. You knew what you were letting yourself in for as soon as you realised that the professionals don't trade 5m pin bars when the RSI is at an extreme, with a nice little 2:1 R and a fixed stop loss in place. Instead you know it requires constant focus, discipline, and decisiveness to make reactionary and discretionary decisions in the flow of a constantly changing price (and P&L)

The problem is, you haven't had any proper sleep for days (the new baby is crying all night) and you had a few losses last month. You usually never talk about losses but you were tired and you let these ones get to you and your wife started saying "what if it all went wrong one day..." when you told her.

Your three kids are at private school which is costing you £30k per term, the mortgage payments on your £2m house in Chiswick are about to get raised and your trader friends at JPMorgan think it's acceptable to do £1,900 on a bender at the weekend.

You think about all this but then you tell yourself, it shouldn't bother you because you have an edge, you've been profitable for 5 years straight now...you're a successful trader!!

Trade 2:

You are the guy above. You made it. But secretly you dream of cutting back, risking less and taking the pressure off a little. You are no longer 24 years old with your whole life ahead of you. You are late thirties now and you have responsibilities. Of course you are never going to stop trading. Why would you when you have a proven edge that works? But the risk is always there and you want to minimise that. At the same time you want your LIFE back. You don't want to be working all hours worrying about missing that one trade that might mean the difference between a winning and a losing month.

You figure you might be able to teach some people to do what you do. You actually quite like the thought of this. You weigh up the pros and cons. The cons are that it takes time to run a business like that and it also might affect your trading having to explain trades to others. The pros are that you get a supplemental income, risk free. Anyway, you try it out and you charge £150 per month for traders to shadow you. Before you know it, your skills speak for yourselves and you have 100 people in the room.

Now your Uni chums - they whisper to each other that you have lost your skills. And the last time you logged into T2W to do some marketing you found a post that said "those that can do, those that can't teach". It upset you a little. But then you check your bank at the end of the month and the £15,000 sitting in there cheers you up again. You are now making £180,000 a year.

You decide to start a website and you put all your informational material on it for those that can't spend all day in your trading room. A few months later you've got 212 people in there paying a further £99 a month. At the end of the year this has brought in £251,000 and combined with the room you're now getting on for making more each year than you made as a professional trader and taken absolutely zero risk to do so.

Your best friend that is the Director in a bank got a 20% wage increase last year. You took him out for a few drinks to celebrate, hardly daring to tell him that you got a 60% wage increase.

You still don't have much of a life, so you use some of your vast profits to pass all the maintenance onto a friend and then you start to sit back...Infact, you actually went out for dinner with your wife last week because your trading room shuts at the normal time of 5pm!!

Who is competent here?

Like trading, life is about risk versus reward.
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Last edited by trader_dante; Jan 25, 2011 at 2:32pm.
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Old Jan 25, 2011, 12:59pm   #39
Joined Mar 2009
Re: Why do they do it?

There are a hell of a lot of books out there that are rubbish too.
IMO, it's simply packaging up stuff you know and selling it on, people pay for the summary of work rather than doing background research themselves or putting in the trial and error time. I don't agree with the online trading vendors as after all finance is essentially a con game or a game of poker trying to outwit people and get money off them. Like DT said, for every 1 good guy, there are many more trying to just take your money from you or those that thought they could make some easy money by doing webinars and the like. I suppose there's a market for it...I just don't agree with it - it's not like any of these guys have the credentials/qualifications to be able to say they are trainers/traders.
Would you be willing to pay for a teacher to teach you Physics who hadn't at least studied it or been trained in teaching?

Things you have to watch out for are people selling tidbits of some of their trading methods enticing you to buy more and also vendors with those sales pitches such as "come see how the trading superman beats the market day in day out" or "only work 1hour a day for the rest of your life" sales tactics.

I have learnt useful info. from books, I have also paid for some online training in the past but I am still very very skeptical about online vendors. Have a read through The World's Greatest Stock Trader and you will see the games that can be played, they're just modified for the online world nowadays.
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Old Jan 25, 2011, 1:45pm   #40
 
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Re: Why do they do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masquerade View Post
ok...let's look at the options:

Trade 1: Be a successful trader. Make millions and go enjoy your leisure time when not trading. Take time off if you wish and so on.

Trade 2: Be a successful trader but instead choose to not trade and charge people a fee to be coached, maybe £100/month and get 30 regular subscribers if you're lucky. Spend all day in a chat room and distributing material to these people, not to mention all the admin stuff that goes along with running a site and ensuring people pay up. Be committed to spending every single trading day in front of a screen coaching and guiding people with little freedom to take a day off or do something enjoyable with your life.

Looking at those 2 trades if someone is competent they will be able to see which is the better of the 2.
False dichotomy.
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