Why do they do it?

robster970 · Jan 26, 2011, 6:26pm

Bison's got a poker background - he's comfortable with when to push on and when to lay off with his bet sizes rather than adopt the 'conventional wisdom' of static risk per trade.

His choice and good on him.

brettus · Jan 27, 2011, 1:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by robster970

Bison's got a poker background - he's comfortable with when to push on and when to lay off with his bet sizes rather than adopt the 'conventional wisdom' of static risk per trade.

His choice and good on him.

Fair play.

DionysusToast · Jan 27, 2011, 2:03am

Quote:

Originally Posted by trader_dante

Many great traders can make large sums of money but the blanket statement: "a great trader should be able to make millions" is ignorant.

There are so many reasons why this is the case that I would be here all day if I listed them.

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Let's presume you AVERAGE 100% per year. Most people might even turn their nose up at this (usually they are bragging about making 60% per week and trading 5 cents a point whilst averaging positions with no stop) but 100% a year is an incredible return. Most of the market wizards weren't getting anywhere near this.

Then start with a decent pot e.g. 20k that you ran up from nothing whilst doing your full time job. Then pay yourself a good yearly salary of lets say £40k to be conservative.

Let's do the math:

Year 1: £20k - £40k. (If you withdraw, you just zeroed your account. But lets cheat and say you maybe saved a buffer salary from your job so you withdraw nothing in the whole of your first year as a full time trader)

Year 2: £40k - £80k. You have to start withdrawing to live - that is after all why you trade. To make a living. Subtract £40k.

Year 3: £40k - £80k. You did it again...nice one. You earn a living from your trading. Subtract £40k...

Year 4: £40k...you see where I am going with this, yet?

And you better hope that you don't get a below average year. God forbid if you only make 90% you are really up sh*t creek. Your expenses outweigh your returns and your pot starts SHRINKING.

Is this guy a great trader? Yes .

Is this guy ever going to make millions? No.

OK - got that....

Quote:

Originally Posted by trader_dante

I have 11 months of back to back statements in this to show the progress from £800 - £10,000. Forgive me for keeping my cards a little close to my chest, I was once asked to provide a statement of the account I used to get a job in prop. I duly provided it and later found it was used by an applicant to the same firm. (not the cleverest thing to do but there you go)

So you can make a 1250% gain in 11 months but this cannot make you rich? Dude - I'll give you 100K to trade at that rate & you can make us BOTH rich. You trade Forex, you are NOT going to have liquidity problems at this level.

How many accounts did you start with to get that 800-10,000 statement? Just the one? Were you not gambling a bit there? You use this to show prospects but you don't want them so see Bisons 'cause it's unrealistic

- you do see that makes little sense.

If so - then there is absolutely no reason this performance will not make you rich.

Anyway - as you are no longer looking to enter the prop world - why not post up an account statement? Even if someone does put it on their CV - only YOU can prove it's yours.

It would be nice to see one vendor put their $$$ where their mouth was. I have seen only one vendor do it & I have seen only 1 vendor trade live and this was with 20 contracts on the ES. Is he the only one?

Black Swan · Jan 27, 2011, 4:06am

Quote:

Originally Posted by trader_dante

Of course I am happy for you but the reason I asked you not to post your statements was because I just think it makes for unrealistic expectations from people that don't understand the game.

I see it the other way, a kind of Kubler-Ross *test*..

DionysusToast · Jan 27, 2011, 4:23am

Quote:

Originally Posted by robster970

Bison's got a poker background - he's comfortable with when to push on and when to lay off with his bet sizes rather than adopt the 'conventional wisdom' of static risk per trade.

His choice and good on him.

For sure - but the sceptic in me wonders how he can know when to lay off if 50% of his trades are off someone else's calls...

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackBison

Lack of courage to handle huge equity swings?

If I inherited £10M tomorrow I would not hesitate to deposit it all and bet my usual 5-10% per trade. I have no qualms about taking large losers because I cannot stand to have a large edge and not really go for the jugular. I always have had the confidence to bounce back no matter what. Thats my personality, which is probably the exception not the rule.

Presupposing that you have a similarly good edge (which you most likely dont) could you say the same?

This is not an attack - although Bison has had a few pokes at me. I presume because of my pokes at his mentor (no wonder my ears have been burning). So I expect he may take it as an attack.

Anyway - how do you say you have a good edge that other people likely don't have, when you are trading someone else's calls? It sounds somewhat of a contradiction.

It is obvious Bison is doing very well with this. Long may it continue. Someone else's calls + betting a large percentage of your equity = great return. Great if you can make it work.

SanMiguel · Jan 27, 2011, 4:43am

Anyone think finance lends itself to the greatest con ever though?
Making people think it works by drumming up rules for a method and then everytime they post a losing trade you can make up some reason why they did something wrong.
Then they believe you have "the knowledge" and eventually pay up for your course?
There are so many different systems/strategies, it really is a religious kind of following that mentors can get themselves...almost like a cult.

trader_dante · Jan 27, 2011, 4:51am

Quote:

Originally Posted by DionysusToast

So you can make a 1250% gain in 11 months but this cannot make you rich?

At the risk of going round in circles, I said that the blanket statement of "every good trader should be able to make millions..." was incorrect in my opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DionysusToast

How many accounts did you start with to get that 800-10,000 statement? Just the one?

I've lost count. It took me around seven years to get profitable ;-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DionysusToast

You use this to show prospects but you don't want them so see Bisons 'cause it's unrealistic

.

I use it as an illustration of what can be done not what will be done. I accept that my return is a good one but I would rather show it than Bisons anytime.

1,250% return is pretty far out there. I accept that. But his is almost double the percentage return in less time!

But put this aside for a second, you will no doubt understand that "prospects" are far more impressed with monetary returns than percentage returns.

I show them my statement and they think "What?! I've got to spend all my time learning what you do and I'm going to make only £9,000 in a whole year!!"

Then they look at Bisons and say, "that's more like it, £62,000 in nine months...sign me up"

Quote:

Originally Posted by DionysusToast

you do see that makes little sense.

Try an experiment:

Show two statements to people:

Statement A: £1,000 - £10,000

Statement B: £10,000 - £100,000

Make sure that they realise the statements were produced over the same time, taking the same setups and using the same risk per trade.

Which one do you think is going to impress more?

Does it make sense?

meanreversion · Jan 27, 2011, 4:52am

Does anyone have a positive experience of a mentor for whom they paid, they can't all be bad.

Jan 26, 2011, 6:26pm	#97
robster970 Legendary Member Member Since Dec 2008 4,197 Posts	Re: Why do they do it? Bison's got a poker background - he's comfortable with when to push on and when to lay off with his bet sizes rather than adopt the 'conventional wisdom' of static risk per trade. His choice and good on him. __________________ Confident about your performance? Perhaps you should consider the Dunning-Kruger effect

Jan 27, 2011, 4:43am	#102
SanMiguel Guest Member Since Mar 2009 1,136 Posts	Re: Why do they do it? Anyone think finance lends itself to the greatest con ever though? Making people think it works by drumming up rules for a method and then everytime they post a losing trade you can make up some reason why they did something wrong. Then they believe you have "the knowledge" and eventually pay up for your course? There are so many different systems/strategies, it really is a religious kind of following that mentors can get themselves...almost like a cult.

Jan 27, 2011, 4:52am	#104
meanreversion Legendary Member Member Since Jan 2009 3,398 Posts	Re: Why do they do it? Does anyone have a positive experience of a mentor for whom they paid, they can't all be bad. __________________ Someone shoot me if I get to 3,500 posts

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