YOU v Others

[Triggerfish]

When YOU trade, what position do YOU take :?:
Do you trade as there is a "YOU".....or.....Do you trade as there is "NO YOU" (ie. acting upon other traders actions)?

Do you see any differences between the two and what benefits are there for a trader if any?

 

[ffsear]

I don't quite follow

 

[new_trader]

When YOU trade, what position do YOU take :?:
Do you trade as there is a "YOU".....or.....Do you trade as there is "NO YOU" (ie. acting upon other traders actions)?

Do you see any differences between the two and what benefits are there for a trader if any?

I apply the Richard Wyckoff concept of the Composite operator.

From Wikipedia: One tool that Wyckoff provides is the concept of the Composite Operator. Simply, Wyckoff felt that an experienced judge of the market should regard the whole story that appears on the tape as though it were the expression of a single mind. He felt that it was an important psychological and tactical advantage to stay in harmony with this omnipotent player. By striving to follow his footsteps, Wyckoff felt we are better prepared to grow our portfolios and net-worth.

 

[lurkerlurker]

I don't quite follow

I would hope any trader or aspiring trader did follow.

You are trading, therefore transacting with others at a price and quantity of their choosing. You cannot buy more than what is offered or at a price lower than what is offered. Therefore the price you can transact and the quantity you can fill is dictated by others.

If your trading plan is to transact according to a reasoned analysis of being able to offset your position in full at an acceptable price you are trading other traders actions and leaving yourself out of the equation.

If you are aware of what others are likely to do, and their behaviour deviates from your forecast you can also reassess your own decision. Not so if you are caught up in viewing yourself not the other traders.

If you are still experiencing emotions while trading or any self focused thoughts whatsoever then you are not yet trading "as if there is no YOU". Your mind should be on why and how others are transacting and are likely to transact.

Here is the reason: your own emotional state, or how you view the market, or even your individual decision (ie placing your order) cannot affect the market (quantity at price available to fill your trade). If you are focused on yourself, you are diverting energy from what is required (the analysis of market conditions) and possibly allowing for adverse decision making inputs (ie fear).

It follows that you should only be trading conditions you can understand based on evidence. When this is in place, self focus should be unnecessary - although this is of course easier said than done, but that is not to say it is not or cannot be done.

 

[Splitlink]

I don't quite follow

I think I do. I don't follow anyone else but my own instincts because it does not matter. The gurus don't know any better, anyway.

Having said, I have been reading posts,here, for a decade and others' ideas and opinions must rub off and, even if you think that an idea is yours it, probably, isn't.

 

[barjon]

My word, you guys sure think deeply about all this .

I suppose price moves by what all these other participants are getting up to, but so what?

All I do is to make an assumption about what price might do (a guess if you want to be cruel ) at particular points. If it does what I assume then I take what I reckon I need to keep my account ticking along (don't care what the damn price does after that). If it doesn't then I wave bye, bye with, at worst, a set amount of damage.

I long ago realised that I was never going to be clever enough to analyse what's going on to any significant degree so I don't even try nowadays.

 

[ffsear]

If you are aware of what others are likely to do, and their behaviour deviates from your forecast you can also reassess your own decision. Not so if you are caught up in viewing yourself not the other traders.

.

You mean the difference between someone who trades on the basis of what he thinks/feels the market SHOULD be doing as opposed to what the market is actually doing.

I'm defiantly someone who looks at what the markets is actually doing in order to make trading decisions.

 

[NVP]

When YOU trade, what position do YOU take :?:
Do you trade as there is a "YOU".....or.....Do you trade as there is "NO YOU" (ie. acting upon other traders actions)?

Do you see any differences between the two and what benefits are there for a trader if any?

hmmm

should I answer this as me .....or not me ?

sorry
N

 

[lurkerlurker]

You mean the difference between someone who trades on the basis of what he thinks/feels the market SHOULD be doing as opposed to what the market is actually doing.

No, not what I wrote at all, read more carefully and try to understand.

I'm defiantly someone who looks at what the markets is actually doing in order to make trading decisions.

That is all very good but it was you who posted that you did not see the distinction in the OPs question.

My word, you guys sure think deeply about all this .

I suppose price moves by what all these other participants are getting up to, but so what?

So you can improve your own trading through better understanding of how and why the market moves. Or not. Horses for courses.

All I do is to make an assumption about what price might do (a guess if you want to be cruel ) at particular points. If it does what I assume then I take what I reckon I need to keep my account ticking along (don't care what the damn price does after that). If it doesn't then I wave bye, bye with, at worst, a set amount of damage.

Without arguing semantics, yes we all make an assumption, forecast, or whatever you want to call it, about what price will likely do. The difference is what reasoning we base this forecast on and how accurate we aspire to be - the motivation to improve, the level of personal effort, and the quality of our reasoning will dictate our trading outcomes.

I long ago realised that I was never going to be clever enough to analyse what's going on to any significant degree so I don't even try nowadays.

Not a particularly inspiring attitude, but your prerogative and perhaps it is a realistic one for you. For what its worth I wasn't (and probably never would have been) clever enough to figure any of this out on my own, but I certainly had enough sense to listen to those with more knowledge and experience.

I take issue with your comment "so what" - coming from a moderator of a trading forum - the attitude "why bother to try its too difficult". Why impose this limited thinking on others? If its too hard and you don't even try, why not hang up your hat and find another hobby rather than continuing to moderate here? Surely having given up yourself you can be of no help to others.

You've been shown that there is a level of proficiency in this business beyond taking an educated guess with fixed stops and targets. Whatever level you aspire to is your personal choice, but why advocate for others to adopt your limitations?

I've not visited in years but my brief return has been an unpleasant reminder of how my mentor was treated many moons ago - interesting experience for me to see it from the other side. I understand more now than I thought possible. The attitude here hasn't budged a bit - collective defeatism schizophrenically juxtaposed with irrational delusional hope. Little sign of personal responsibility or original thought either. In some ways I am glad that the majority approach trading in this way, but that is just sheer selfishness on my part.

With this level of response* to those who try to pose interesting questions, maybe it is best if we don't even try either! How many people who have some of the questions (and answers...) actively contribute here now? Why might that be?

We'll keep stum and you lot can carry on without asking the questions which might lead to sustainable and scalable independent trading success.

*

The gurus don't know any better, anyway.

So I suppose nobody else can be beyond your limitations? More ego protection at play.
This goes also for the poster who suggested on the other thread that my contributions must be worthless as I had referred to scripture- ironically proving the continued validity of the parables in Matthew 13.

 

[ffsear]

WOW! why are you being so defensive? I was simply asking the OP to clarify as I did'nt understand.

Or to use your own words....

, read more carefully and try to understand.

 

[ffsear]

double post

 

[barjon]

..............I take issue with your comment "so what" - coming from a moderator of a trading forum - the attitude "why bother to try its too difficult". Why impose this limited thinking on others? If its too hard and you don't even try, why not hang up your hat and find another hobby rather than continuing to moderate here? Surely having given up yourself you can be of no help to others.................

lurker

I meant it in the context of my own trading - it simply does not matter to me.

I have every admiration for those who get to understand the workings of the market (and its various participants) to the degree that enables them to trade successfully. And I'm not suggesting for a minute that people should not aspire to gain that understanding and proficiency.

All I am saying is that I get what I want from the market without that deep understanding.

 

[ffsear]

Hopefully he's having a cold shower and calming down

 

[Splitlink]

No, not what I wrote at all, read more carefully and try to understand.

That is all very good but it was you who posted that you did not see the distinction in the OPs question.



So you can improve your own trading through better understanding of how and why the market moves. Or not. Horses for courses.



Without arguing semantics, yes we all make an assumption, forecast, or whatever you want to call it, about what price will likely do. The difference is what reasoning we base this forecast on and how accurate we aspire to be - the motivation to improve, the level of personal effort, and the quality of our reasoning will dictate our trading outcomes.


Not a particularly inspiring attitude, but your prerogative and perhaps it is a realistic one for you. For what its worth I wasn't (and probably never would have been) clever enough to figure any of this out on my own, but I certainly had enough sense to listen to those with more knowledge and experience.

I take issue with your comment "so what" - coming from a moderator of a trading forum - the attitude "why bother to try its too difficult". Why impose this limited thinking on others? If its too hard and you don't even try, why not hang up your hat and find another hobby rather than continuing to moderate here? Surely having given up yourself you can be of no help to others.

You've been shown that there is a level of proficiency in this business beyond taking an educated guess with fixed stops and targets. Whatever level you aspire to is your personal choice, but why advocate for others to adopt your limitations?

I've not visited in years but my brief return has been an unpleasant reminder of how my mentor was treated many moons ago - interesting experience for me to see it from the other side. I understand more now than I thought possible. The attitude here hasn't budged a bit - collective defeatism schizophrenically juxtaposed with irrational delusional hope. Little sign of personal responsibility or original thought either. In some ways I am glad that the majority approach trading in this way, but that is just sheer selfishness on my part.

With this level of response* to those who try to pose interesting questions, maybe it is best if we don't even try either! How many people who have some of the questions (and answers...) actively contribute here now? Why might that be?

We'll keep stum and you lot can carry on without asking the questions which might lead to sustainable and scalable independent trading success.

*

So I suppose nobody else can be beyond your limitations? More ego protection at play.
This goes also for the poster who suggested on the other thread that my contributions must be worthless as I had referred to scripture- ironically proving the continued validity of the parables in Matthew 13.

You seem to have issues with most of the posts on this thread. Glad I'm not alone, although we may not all have the same opinions.

Ego? I'm afraid I'm a bit guilty of that. but I'll live.

Lots of people are beyond my limitations and lots below. My problem is that I can't tell which are which, so I prefer to do my own thing.

Please don't bring the disciples into this. I am a believer, myself, but I am not sure whether those waiting for me are too interested in human finances.

 

[malaguti]

really, who gives a flying f***!
Your strategy and lets keep it really simple like one ma crossing over another is based on historical backtesting (if you managed to get that far) when it happened in the past, were you considering who the hell the other person was? NO. so it makes a blind bit of difference now and would hardly stop you from executing against your strategy. the only person you need to be worried about is YOU, thats your enemy

 

[lurkerlurker]

really, who gives a flying f***!
Your strategy and lets keep it really simple like one ma crossing over another is based on historical backtesting (if you managed to get that far) when it happened in the past, were you considering who the hell the other person was? NO. so it makes a blind bit of difference now and would hardly stop you from executing against your strategy. the only person you need to be worried about is YOU, thats your enemy

Since you have all the answers (but none of the questions) I'll let you provide the substance for future discussions. I particularly like the need to worry about yourself as you are your own enemy. Great advice and I can guess at how that is working out for you. Its a free world.

WOW! why are you being so defensive? I was simply asking the OP to clarify as I did'nt understand.

Hopefully he's having a cold shower and calming down

I clarified the question under discussion. My reply was unclear to you as you asked if I really meant something else, before stating that you had a preference which you would stick to "defiantly". Defiantly means "boldly resistant or challenging" or "in a rebellious manner". I simply suggested you read again carefully what I had written in the hope you might understand, and I would suggest a defiant posture is of no use whatsoever when trying to learn.

You reply with personal accusations of defensiveness and suggest I need to calm down. Rude and unwarranted.

lurker

I meant it in the context of my own trading - it simply does not matter to me.

I have every admiration for those who get to understand the workings of the market (and its various participants) to the degree that enables them to trade successfully. And I'm not suggesting for a minute that people should not aspire to gain that understanding and proficiency.

All I am saying is that I get what I want from the market without that deep understanding.

You are off topic. The topic is:

Do you trade as there is a "YOU".....or.....Do you trade as there is "NO YOU" (ie. acting upon other traders actions)?

Do you see any differences between the two and what benefits are there for a trader if any?

My contribution was in direct response to the topic and a further clarification for somebody who did not see the distinction at first reading. You chime in with how it isn't necessary to know about other traders etc, you aren't smart enough, it doesn't help you, and you are happy with your own results so why bother.

If you admire the other approach as much as you say, then why not participate in the discussion or simply observe, rather than pointing out that perhaps we are thinking about things too deeply and "so what" if the decisions of other traders have an effect on our trade? You went off topic, and as befits the short attention spans and insecurities of parts of this community the thread has now turned personal with any worthwhile discussion lost in the noise. As usual here.

Please don't bring the disciples into this. I am a believer, myself, but I am not sure whether those waiting for me are too interested in human finances.

I'll try again with you. Who mentioned human finances? I'm not the first to point out here that the focus on money is a trap for the unwary. What about the desire to learn the truth and improve self? I think Matthew 13 is relevant to those who have tried to teach aspiring traders. Verses 15 and 19 describe those who believed it could not be done, 20&21 refer to those who were taught but did not persist and sacrifice to advance the purpose, 22 refers to those who think trading is all about greed and therefore never learn what is required to succeed, and 23 refers to the successful students.

I understand that some may not wish to read scripture on a trading site, and some others may view with distaste what they believe to be the misappropriation of scripture for other than honorable purposes. I can respect both points of view, but not the one which holds that whoever quotes scripture should be ignored. Regardless of our personal religious views the gospels do illustrate various facets of human nature, and on the other thread interesting discussion points were not being pursued. An excellent example of the human condition where unpopular truth is concerned, whether this is a profane truth or a spiritual truth. I found value in this particular chapter and hope others will too.

I did not intend to cause offense to anyone. It is unfortunate this discussion has been taken personally rather than as an opportunity to learn. Jon and Split...someone else has had similar discussions with you both before so I should know better than to expect a different outcome.

Goodbye and good luck. :clover:

 

[barjon]

................You went off topic, and as befits the short attention spans and insecurities of parts of this community the thread has now turned personal with any worthwhile discussion lost in the noise. As usual here..................

Turned personal? And i don't suppose the way you chose to express things had anything to do with it? Silly me - 'course not

 

[Splitlink]

Since you have all the answers (but none of the questions) I'll let you provide the substance for future discussions. I particularly like the need to worry about yourself as you are your own enemy. Great advice and I can guess at how that is working out for you. Its a free world.




I clarified the question under discussion. My reply was unclear to you as you asked if I really meant something else, before stating that you had a preference which you would stick to "defiantly". Defiantly means "boldly resistant or challenging" or "in a rebellious manner". I simply suggested you read again carefully what I had written in the hope you might understand, and I would suggest a defiant posture is of no use whatsoever when trying to learn.

You reply with personal accusations of defensiveness and suggest I need to calm down. Rude and unwarranted.



You are off topic. The topic is:

Do you trade as there is a "YOU".....or.....Do you trade as there is "NO YOU" (ie. acting upon other traders actions)?

Do you see any differences between the two and what benefits are there for a trader if any?

My contribution was in direct response to the topic and a further clarification for somebody who did not see the distinction at first reading. You chime in with how it isn't necessary to know about other traders etc, you aren't smart enough, it doesn't help you, and you are happy with your own results so why bother.

If you admire the other approach as much as you say, then why not participate in the discussion or simply observe, rather than pointing out that perhaps we are thinking about things too deeply and "so what" if the decisions of other traders have an effect on our trade? You went off topic, and as befits the short attention spans and insecurities of parts of this community the thread has now turned personal with any worthwhile discussion lost in the noise. As usual here.



I'll try again with you. Who mentioned human finances? I'm not the first to point out here that the focus on money is a trap for the unwary. What about the desire to learn the truth and improve self? I think Matthew 13 is relevant to those who have tried to teach aspiring traders. Verses 15 and 19 describe those who believed it could not be done, 20&21 refer to those who were taught but did not persist and sacrifice to advance the purpose, 22 refers to those who think trading is all about greed and therefore never learn what is required to succeed, and 23 refers to the successful students.

I understand that some may not wish to read scripture on a trading site, and some others may view with distaste what they believe to be the misappropriation of scripture for other than honorable purposes. I can respect both points of view, but not the one which holds that whoever quotes scripture should be ignored. Regardless of our personal religious views the gospels do illustrate various facets of human nature, and on the other thread interesting discussion points were not being pursued. An excellent example of the human condition where unpopular truth is concerned, whether this is a profane truth or a spiritual truth. I found value in this particular chapter and hope others will too.

I did not intend to cause offense to anyone. It is unfortunate this discussion has been taken personally rather than as an opportunity to learn. Jon and Split...someone else has had similar discussions with you both before so I should know better than to expect a different outcome.

Goodbye and good luck. :clover:

Good luck to you, too. You have interested me to the extent that I am going to look at some of your previous posts, something has annoyed you, somewhere.

 

[ffsear]

I clarified the question under discussion. My reply was unclear to you as you asked if I really meant something else, before stating that you had a preference which you would stick to "defiantly". Defiantly means "boldly resistant or challenging" or "in a rebellious manner". I simply suggested you read again carefully what I had written in the hope you might understand, and I would suggest a defiant posture is of no use whatsoever when trying to learn.
r:

Typo, was supposed to say "definitely" .. But even if it had said "defiantly" I still not sure why your upset. You haven't even explained what that drivel you wrote meant yet. We ok now sweet cheeks?

I would say no need to be aggressive, but i think you came here looking for a fight. Don't you have a wife to beat?

 

[ffsear]

Good luck to you, too. You have interested me to the extent that I am going to look at some of your previous posts, something has annoyed you, somewhere.

Have a look, he's been angry for a LONG time!