SOCRATES
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Yes, ZDO, I will soon but not now because I have sudden comms. traffic.ZDO said:Soc,
Thank you for that contribution. You’ve made that point many times and in many ways - (… and here come the jibes) Most traders keep looking for tricks and shortcuts and there are NONE.
Re: “many of the obstacles are invisible” My ‘solution’ is constantly and passionately resetting the “list”. These obstacles only remain unknown only if they are never approached…
re:
” It is impossible to transfer it by writing about it, discussing it, showing it, demonstrating it, explaining it, recounting it, disseminating it, or trying to impart it. I used to think it could be done, now I know it can't.” I am agreeing with that more and more. I continue posting at all for one reason – one person. I no longer post for the many… I post for just the one trader who will look back and say “but for those posts I would have stayed in my box…” As I have asked you before, I urge you to do the same and ignore all the other stuff.
Obviously, what a bunch of posters are saying up here along these same lines (basically - that the work on the trader is equally important with work on the trading) is being heavily discounted. Maybe they will listen to Mark Douglas who says about beliefs (and remember, beliefs are just one part of the big ‘list’ ) “actively stepping into a process … of neutralizing self sabataging beliefs… just because markets represents… unlimited flow of opportunities it doesn’t mean our identities are structured in a way where we’re willing to give ourselves … wealth… these inner forces, if not reconciled… will act on your perceptions…will act on your behavior … and you will end up doing things… that cause yourself huge drawdowns. You…have to be able to recognize (these maladaptive inner processes on your list –insert by zdo)… and know how to do something about it… it requires a unique mind set … it requires an intense amount of work” This is from a guy who has coached hundreds of traders and has only met ONE in all those hundreds whose ‘list’ was nearly clear at the beginning ie who was ‘clear’ and ready to learn about how to find an edge and trade successfully… everybody is at a different place today. All I’m doing is encouraging you to move and move on levels you don’t usually consider. Most people lose because they “bring a whole plethora of issues… a huge gap… successful trader” (more Mark Douglas)
If you have time, expand on "turns and bites back" Thanks in advance.
All the best
zdo
SOCRATES
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I am not writing what I am writing, and in the way I am writing it for you, DB.dbphoenix said:
I am writing for a very tiny audience that is on the other side of the glass to you.
You are rooted in what is mechanical, basic. They are not.
We are discussing at another level. You are arguing at basement height.
You don't have to be affronted or threatened by it because you don't understand it.
Just hang around, you know, and you may learn something you don't know and that may help you to evolve to a higher level of awareness which is what you need, even if you yourself do not realise it, consciously or otherwise.
I've read this thread with interest, the same old questions and answers always seem to resurface. It's a reoccuring nightmare in some respects. Everybody has answered Millano's thread, but, nobody has actually read it and looked at it from an angle of anything less than one dimensional. Who are the few who are succeeding? Can it be possible for the majority to succeed? Are we talking about futures, stock, day trading, investment...what 'few' are we talking about for definate here? Let's say we're talking about the good old futures day trader....they always seem to take the brunt for this type of thread. Why is it only the few that make it and not the majority? What laws govern this 95% of failure statistic? Would 95% of the world population fail in thier endeavours within the market or does the market only attract a certain type of person who is destined to fail because of the reason of why they are attracted to it? The markets involve risk! Can you overcome it? I mean, let's face it, it's quite satisfying to say you overcome risk on a regular basis, isn't it? Most gamblers fail, for one reason or another, this transpires into the markets. I hope i've not offended anybody and i hope you can see what i am saying. Don't have nightmares.
counter_violent
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:idea: This thread will disappear up it's own jaxxy ....reason is simple ....it just will...
C V
C V
SOCRATES
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Ah ! Welcome back RUDEBOY, nice to have you back again.Let me brief you on what's been happening.RUDEBOY said:
What it is, is that the question that Millano originally asked was pitched from the "failure" point of view, and not the "success" point of view, you see.
Of course a thread like this is bound to attract a lot of interest. At the moment there is a lot of discussion going on relating to the causes of failure, and not to the reasons that underpin success.
The discussion of risk is premature, no doubt we will get round to that later.
A couple of us here are trying very hard to raise the general tone of the discussion to a more elevated level, and we may be having some success in this despite the occasional inept interrrrrruption.
It is getting rather late and I have a lot on, but tomorrow ZDO and I will be exploring an interesting aspect of a particular problem that besets a lot of unhappy people and I will be doing my best to help.
Kind Regards.
Few
Re:
“Who are the few who are succeeding?” The few who are succeeding are the ones who have expanded out their ‘list’ to almost as complete as the ‘archetypically ideal list’ of actual issues that must be resolved. Then they have brought into awareness, acknowledged and ‘cleared’ a very high percentage of those issues. It really doesn’t matter what statistics one uses (80%, 95% lose etc yada yada) or which intruments or which timeframes are used for illustration or discussion. The real issue is –
If you don’t have 96% + of your complete list ‘cleared’ (ie nothing inside you conflicts re that issue) then you have NO chance of being in the elite.
If you don’t have 78% of your complete list ‘cleared’, then your accounts will ultimately be closed.
You can either OPEN your list or CLOSE your list to additional issues.
And how can you ‘clear’ issues if you won’t even acknowledge them onto your list?
You can either avoid issues on that list or take some self risks and go into them and resolve them. The few who are succeeding have done that at whatever levels they needed to.
In advocating building and maintaining a large ‘list’, please don’t read into this that I’m advocating that you never distill things down to the essence. Also don’t impune that I’m advising that you constantly have a multitasking, scattered, hyperactive task list and not have have a current focus or dominant concern. Distill and focus - Do those things, and do them well. But also, as appropriate, stop and swell your list with previously unconsidered alternatives, with those things you secretly hoped wouldn’t be a part of making it in trading, with issues that bring up resistance, with conflicting energies that put your mind and soul at risk, with needed states, acts, relations that speak to a whole life – no one will do that for you and although much of it does happen automatically, some of it will not. Fully intend to let no neurosis, arrogance, inflation, even confidence, OR despair, resistance, conflict, or indolence sway you from brutal self examination and resolution. Others can help you identify your unresolved, your unknowns, your blind spots. Others can help you with ways to ‘clear’ an item. But only you can actually clear them.
Regarding the allegations from the ‘discouragement fraternity’ ( aka The BrotherHood of Socrates Bashers ) about space, balloons (btw good analogy db), ‘somethings’ - just remember that most of the collective is boxed into a certain band of frequencies and just because those are the only ones we can communicate about easily with words, and just because those are the only ones that are consistently practical; does not mean that those frequencies are the only ones that exist (are you listening, db?) or are where all of YOUR answers will be found (do you understand now, db?) . The great percentage of the list and resolutions WILL be found in the normal band – but a small, but extremely crucial to success, percent will be found in those areas ‘hidden’ from the collective and opened just to you. Stay left brained and ‘grounded’ and leave those off your list at your own peril.
Some are saying, it only matters what you DO / NOT DO to succeed. Just stick with “these” rules, blind yourself to all else, and your account will grow. Others remind them that who you BE / NOT BE is just as, if not more, important (can you say Plato? ). Even fewer include HAVE / NOT HAVE at the genesis and woven into the process. etc etc I’m saying get all these sets solidly up front in your awareness and shepherd all of them forward. That's anything but one dimensional. The few who are succeeding have done that at whatever levels / frequencies they needed to – whether they were born mostly ‘clear’ or had to go through Hades and beyond – they all persisted in the real priorities (instead of just the easy fun ones) until they were ‘cleared’. Explicitly and consciously get items onto your list from each of these 'headings' and more. Keep your master list large and with “passion and gradualness” (Pavlov or one of his slobbering K9’s) work to ‘clear’ every item on your list. When beyond a certain percentage is ‘cleared’, you literally can not fail.
Speaking of ‘beyond’ - Let’s lighten up a little bit.
We’re among friends right?
T2W - what a dream site???!!!
We got a Pheonix that won’t rebirth.
We got a Socrates who won’t ask questions.
And for some (deep inter dimensional) reasons, they dream a fight
What kind of world is this place?
Many of you are already to the underworld as I pen this.
Hope you don’t get even stranger nightmares now…
At least twice now - maybe more to some...
I haven’t said enough I’ve said too much
All the best,
zdo
Re:
RUDEBOY said:
“Who are the few who are succeeding?” The few who are succeeding are the ones who have expanded out their ‘list’ to almost as complete as the ‘archetypically ideal list’ of actual issues that must be resolved. Then they have brought into awareness, acknowledged and ‘cleared’ a very high percentage of those issues. It really doesn’t matter what statistics one uses (80%, 95% lose etc yada yada) or which intruments or which timeframes are used for illustration or discussion. The real issue is –
If you don’t have 96% + of your complete list ‘cleared’ (ie nothing inside you conflicts re that issue) then you have NO chance of being in the elite.
If you don’t have 78% of your complete list ‘cleared’, then your accounts will ultimately be closed.
You can either OPEN your list or CLOSE your list to additional issues.
And how can you ‘clear’ issues if you won’t even acknowledge them onto your list?
You can either avoid issues on that list or take some self risks and go into them and resolve them. The few who are succeeding have done that at whatever levels they needed to.
In advocating building and maintaining a large ‘list’, please don’t read into this that I’m advocating that you never distill things down to the essence. Also don’t impune that I’m advising that you constantly have a multitasking, scattered, hyperactive task list and not have have a current focus or dominant concern. Distill and focus - Do those things, and do them well. But also, as appropriate, stop and swell your list with previously unconsidered alternatives, with those things you secretly hoped wouldn’t be a part of making it in trading, with issues that bring up resistance, with conflicting energies that put your mind and soul at risk, with needed states, acts, relations that speak to a whole life – no one will do that for you and although much of it does happen automatically, some of it will not. Fully intend to let no neurosis, arrogance, inflation, even confidence, OR despair, resistance, conflict, or indolence sway you from brutal self examination and resolution. Others can help you identify your unresolved, your unknowns, your blind spots. Others can help you with ways to ‘clear’ an item. But only you can actually clear them.
Regarding the allegations from the ‘discouragement fraternity’ ( aka The BrotherHood of Socrates Bashers ) about space, balloons (btw good analogy db), ‘somethings’ - just remember that most of the collective is boxed into a certain band of frequencies and just because those are the only ones we can communicate about easily with words, and just because those are the only ones that are consistently practical; does not mean that those frequencies are the only ones that exist (are you listening, db?) or are where all of YOUR answers will be found (do you understand now, db?) . The great percentage of the list and resolutions WILL be found in the normal band – but a small, but extremely crucial to success, percent will be found in those areas ‘hidden’ from the collective and opened just to you. Stay left brained and ‘grounded’ and leave those off your list at your own peril.
Some are saying, it only matters what you DO / NOT DO to succeed. Just stick with “these” rules, blind yourself to all else, and your account will grow. Others remind them that who you BE / NOT BE is just as, if not more, important (can you say Plato?
). Even fewer include HAVE / NOT HAVE at the genesis and woven into the process. etc etc I’m saying get all these sets solidly up front in your awareness and shepherd all of them forward. That's anything but one dimensional. The few who are succeeding have done that at whatever levels / frequencies they needed to – whether they were born mostly ‘clear’ or had to go through Hades and beyond – they all persisted in the real priorities (instead of just the easy fun ones) until they were ‘cleared’. Explicitly and consciously get items onto your list from each of these 'headings' and more. Keep your master list large and with “passion and gradualness” (Pavlov or one of his slobbering K9’s) work to ‘clear’ every item on your list. When beyond a certain percentage is ‘cleared’, you literally can not fail.Speaking of ‘beyond’ - Let’s lighten up a little bit.
We’re among friends right?
T2W - what a dream site???!!!
We got a Pheonix that won’t rebirth.
We got a Socrates who won’t ask questions.
And for some (deep inter dimensional) reasons, they dream a fight
What kind of world is this place?
Many of you are already to the underworld as I pen this.
Hope you don’t get even stranger nightmares now…
At least twice now - maybe more to some...
I haven’t said enough I’ve said too much
All the best,
zdo
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All the things you list are inabilites that can be fixed through work. I said in my post that the work needed will vary. Some may need to work on any or all of the inabilites you list. The inabilities will only cause a temporary state of unprofitability. The choice to quit rather than do the necessary work to fix those inabilities is what will cause failure.SOCRATES said:
This is exactly my point. The successful ones are the ones who went away and did the work. I'm sure they all started out with some form of "inability" that they needed to work on. They did the work and became successful.SOCRATES said:
This is the human equivilant of "The Crab Principle". Put a bunch of crabs into a cage with no lid. Make sure the cage is small enough that the crabs could get out if they wanted to. You know what will happen? No crab will ever get out of that cage! This is because as each tries to climb out of the cage the others will pull it back down. In the end no crab gets out.SOCRATES said:
Humans can be like this. Many fear the success of others and attempt to pull them down to their level rather than rise up to the successful ones level. A very common phenomenon.
However, that was not what I was getting at. You see humans also like to believe they are somehow inherently better than others. In it's most ugly guise this takes the form of racism. In a less repugnant guise it is simply believing that somehow you have some talent that others can not match. This is ego. The sense that "I" am better than "them". This, imo, is why many(not all) successful traders like to spin the mystique about how hard trading is and how only a select few, touched at birth with the right qualities, can achieve success at trading. It makes them feel special, it strokes their ego. It feels much better than to admit it is a learned skill set that anyone who wants it badly enough and works hard enough can also learn and achieve. I'm not saying this is bad. We all have ego and hence we all like to feel special and somehow better than others at something. It is human nature. However, if one is to have a list to work on or an obstacle course to complete one needs to be completely honest and admit that being human means they will have ego. This ego will affect them.
In the end I think we both agree on many points Soc, I think we just view them from different angles. Due to this, we disagree on one major point and that is who can be successful at this game of trading. You seem to think it takes a special kind of person to be successful. I believe all people are special and can achieve success if they work hard enough at it.
Cheers,
PKFFW
Because of the ergonomic Mandarin keyboard ?RUDEBOY said:
To keep from being overwhelmed ?RUDEBOY said:
For example:
I may have just found the split -
Socrates is about, ie primarily comes in terms of, the 3 fold
dbCooper is about, ie primarily comes in terms of, the 4 fold
Both are equally valid and valuable geometries of meaning
(See Arthur Young’s book The Geometry of Meaning)
The 3 fold and 4 fold are amenable to cross talk only at certain aspects – which obviously they haven’t found yet. At least now I can safely unshield a little bit and I don’t have to be so frustrated with their fighting and can appreciate their sincere contributions more. All because of the way I type
ZDO said:
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PKFFW,
I agree with you completely – almost . I especially appreciate “The choice to quit rather than do the necessary work to fix those inabilities is what will cause failure”
However, some of the things we are attempting, with some difficulty, to discuss are simply not in the realm of “learning” as the term is generally accepted.
Also, believe me, unsuccessful traders spin far far far more mystique than do successful traders and wannabe’s do far more pulling crabs back down (on a relational level) than do successful traders. Truly successful traders are humble, grateful, present and ego is a non – issue. You may be confusing winning young guns with successful traders. Give them a few years and see if they’re still around…
zdo
I agree with you completely – almost
. I especially appreciate “The choice to quit rather than do the necessary work to fix those inabilities is what will cause failure”However, some of the things we are attempting, with some difficulty, to discuss are simply not in the realm of “learning” as the term is generally accepted.
Also, believe me, unsuccessful traders spin far far far more mystique than do successful traders and wannabe’s do far more pulling crabs back down (on a relational level) than do successful traders. Truly successful traders are humble, grateful, present and ego is a non – issue. You may be confusing winning young guns with successful traders. Give them a few years and see if they’re still around…
zdo
I'm going to assume you are referring to those less tangible things that make up a successful trader. For example discipline, focus, patience, controlling fear and greed, being willing to let success into your life and not subconciously sabotaging yourself, trading what the market tells you and not what you would like it to be telling you..........all those "esoteric somethings" for want of a better way of putting it.ZDO said:PKFFW,
I agree with you completely – almost
However, some of the things we are attempting, with some difficulty, to discuss are simply not in the realm of “learning” as the term is generally accepted.
Also, believe me, unsuccessful traders spin far far far more mystique than do successful traders and wannabe’s do far more pulling crabs back down (on a relational level) than do successful traders. Truly successful traders are humble, grateful, present and ego is a non – issue. You may be confusing winning young guns with successful traders. Give them a few years and see if they’re still around…
zdo
All these things can be learnt. You can't learn it from a book, instead you have to look within yourself. It can still be learnt. Even the most impatient of people can learn patience. Even those suffering from a phobia can learn to control their fear. Even the most ill-disciplined, unfocused, lazy and greedy person can learn to change their behavioural pattern. To suggest otherwise is to belittle all those who have made those changes and many more as well.
As for pulling people down, I agree that the unsuccessful are the ones who do that.
However, it is simply incorrect to suggest that ego is a non-issue amongst successful traders. All humans have ego. Ego is what distinguishes the "I" from the "them". Some control their ego better than others but all humans are bound by ego. Many(again, I strees, not all) successful people(in all walks of life) can allow their ego to convince themselves that they must somehow be special and different to others. That some others could never do what they have done because they just aren't "born to it" or "not the right personality for it" or some other such reason. All of it is hogwash. Some will fail at trading but none are pre-destined to fail regardless of what they do simply because of who they are. This myth is, imo, perpetuated more by successful traders than by unsuccessful ones. As you and Soc have pointed out, the unsuccessful try to blame anything and everything bar themselves for their failure. They do not sit back and say "well I failed because I am inherently flawed for the business of trading". On the other hand the successful traders are quick to point out to the unsuccessful that there is no holy grail or secret to it all. They point out the failure is on the part of the unsuccessful trader. It is something about that trader that made them unsuccessful. Often times they argue that the trader failed because of who they are. I would argue they failed because of something they failed to do. They chose not to work at it until they had changed whatever it was that needed changing.
Anywho, I think we are arguing two sides of the same coin really. Our emphasis is different is all.
Cheers,
PKFFW
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new_trader
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JumpOff said:
I agree completely. Many people (I would say the majority) have little curiosity about the Universe around them. I had a discussion with someone about the type of questions every adult should be able to answer. The type of questions a curious child would ask them. One questions I though of was:
Q. Why does the earth have seasons?
I asked many EDUCATED adults this question and these were the most common answers given:
1. The earth moves closer to the sun in summer and further away in winter. (They couldn't explain why Northern and Southern hemispheres experience opposite seasons)
2. Don't know, never thought about it.
3. Don't care, what's on TV?
I'm sure these people would be "interested" in Day Trading if they heard "You can make lots of money". I am firm in my belief that IQ and EQ are fundamental factors in determining success or failure. This doesn't mean that intelligent people can't fail, but I would say that only above average people can succeed.
