Hi I'm a newbie to all this and this is my first post.I am seriously considering doing either an Alan Rich one dayer or a Sandy Dajeda one dayer.Can anyone help me to decide?.I have done the spreadbetting for beginners one dayer with mr Bartlett of clickevents which was useful at the time but now I look back and wonder.That aside I have completely and utterly got the bug and have been reading and surfing incessingtly.I feel I have a good mindset approach to the disciplines psychology etc.I have made a couple of bad trades not losing fortunes but enough to realise I do not really know what I am doing.I am at the stage where I realise it would be dangerous to gamble my hard earned and I think I am being sensible to look for a positive direction.The more reading I do the more confused I am getting at the moment.I am not seeing the wood for the trees and need help to solve the dillema of wether to just jump in and see what happens or reading and researching for years too fearful to participate.I am convinced that there are many people around the planet trading with success.I am also convinced that I could be one of them.Is this too dangerous to think this way?Does anyone have any thoght on what I've written.What does worry me is that somewhere on the site earlier I read that apparently 90%+of all spreadbets show a loss.Should this worry me I know bigtime [see I have done lots of reading] that losses are all part of it but 90%?.So summing up asI have said I am considering spending my money on education rather than hopeful trades.What I really want is clear direction I can only read so much info about fibbythingy ,harami candlesticks ,bollinger etc etc I'm sure you get the picture.Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.Best wishes to you all Sarah.akaCB11981.
cb11981.....
I see your in london why don't you pop along to one of city Index's free seminars with Tom Houagaard...I think the next one is on the 18th of Aug??
Tom will go out of his way to help people he gives away info a lot of info which others charge for!!!
http://www.cityindex.co.uk/cityindex/about/seminars.aspx
BTW I have nothing to do with city index....
CJ
I see your in london why don't you pop along to one of city Index's free seminars with Tom Houagaard...I think the next one is on the 18th of Aug??
Tom will go out of his way to help people he gives away info a lot of info which others charge for!!!
http://www.cityindex.co.uk/cityindex/about/seminars.aspx
BTW I have nothing to do with city index....
CJ
trendie
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Hi cb11981,
Sandy Jadeja is a good start if you a relatively inexperienced.
( I have attended his 1-dayer ).
Alan Rich specialises in using Level 2 to trade. I have met him, but I do not use his techniques, as I feel that Level 2 is too specific for me. I feel you should have some experience and confidence trading before going to Alan.
On these boards, Chartman does an almost realtime analysis of trades of the Dow.
( He offers his rules for free - there is a word doc somewhere on this site ).
There is a lot of good stuff and advice on these boards.
Welcome to T2W and we wish you well.
Sandy Jadeja is a good start if you a relatively inexperienced.
( I have attended his 1-dayer ).
Alan Rich specialises in using Level 2 to trade. I have met him, but I do not use his techniques, as I feel that Level 2 is too specific for me. I feel you should have some experience and confidence trading before going to Alan.
On these boards, Chartman does an almost realtime analysis of trades of the Dow.
( He offers his rules for free - there is a word doc somewhere on this site ).
There is a lot of good stuff and advice on these boards.
Welcome to T2W and we wish you well.
BeanCounter
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Hi Sarah.
Think I'm in a similiar place to you in terms of learning / trading. Ive not attended any seminars (although would consider one in the future): my only recommendation would be to get a copy of J Murphy's book (Technical Analysis of the Financial Markets). It covers all the things you mentioned; but also some of the other more esoteric elements of trading (physcology, trading strategy, etc). I found it a very useful way of pieceing together all the different indicators / signals / etc.
The other useful piece of advice Ive been given is choose a market you either now well, or can find out information about with ease (ie FTSE 100); then choose and monitor price action; if poss using a paper trading system 1st.
Select around 10 instruments, and monitor them daily if EOD (& get yourself some charting software). And when youve started making regular paper profits, try real money (again small amounts initially). Ive read some pretty experienced traders will go back to paper trading when theve hit a bad run to boost confidence.
But, most of all, be lucky.. and remember, the more you practise, the luckier you'll get
Think I'm in a similiar place to you in terms of learning / trading. Ive not attended any seminars (although would consider one in the future): my only recommendation would be to get a copy of J Murphy's book (Technical Analysis of the Financial Markets). It covers all the things you mentioned; but also some of the other more esoteric elements of trading (physcology, trading strategy, etc). I found it a very useful way of pieceing together all the different indicators / signals / etc.
The other useful piece of advice Ive been given is choose a market you either now well, or can find out information about with ease (ie FTSE 100); then choose and monitor price action; if poss using a paper trading system 1st.
Select around 10 instruments, and monitor them daily if EOD (& get yourself some charting software). And when youve started making regular paper profits, try real money (again small amounts initially). Ive read some pretty experienced traders will go back to paper trading when theve hit a bad run to boost confidence.
But, most of all, be lucky.. and remember, the more you practise, the luckier you'll get
Sarah
The best way to learn is to actually trade, but at a very small level, so that if you have a bad run you won't lose any sleep over it. I think Finspreads still allow trades from as little as 1p (internet only). Paper trading is good, but never as good as actual trading.
Personally I think you would learn alot more from reading the many threads on this site than from courses and seminars. People often post trading strategies for discussion that you could review and apply if you find one that suits your circumstances.
Dave
The best way to learn is to actually trade, but at a very small level, so that if you have a bad run you won't lose any sleep over it. I think Finspreads still allow trades from as little as 1p (internet only). Paper trading is good, but never as good as actual trading.
Personally I think you would learn alot more from reading the many threads on this site than from courses and seminars. People often post trading strategies for discussion that you could review and apply if you find one that suits your circumstances.
Dave
Hi,cb11981 said:
Did you have a strategy to your trades?
Where they day trades or end of day trades?
Were they UK or US markets, day time or evening time trades?
What style of trading do you think you want?
Once you have decided these, then that will start to shape what kind of course you should be looking at. Also pay attention to the after course support that is on offer.
Regards
MysticalTrader
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Ahhh. Excellent. I havent wanted to own up to this, but I had a couple of real bummer days after a few good ones a week or so back. So I have
gone back to paper for a while. I am still a newbie and am not yet in profit regularly (though I am showing a small overall profit for the past 4 months). I am *very* pleased to know that more experienced people go back to paper trading as well - thought it was just me wimping out.
gone back to paper for a while. I am still a newbie and am not yet in profit regularly (though I am showing a small overall profit for the past 4 months). I am *very* pleased to know that more experienced people go back to paper trading as well - thought it was just me wimping out.
BeanCounter said:
an experienced trader never paper trades - but the only way to learn is to put trades on - and when they go wrong - dont bet more to get your money back - stop - and work out what went wrong - then when you think you figured it out - have another go at real trading and when that goes wrong - work out why - learning to trade will cost you money - but trying to trade out of losses will bankrupt you - you just need to be able to keep going until you learn - but if you have a winner or a loser - and you dont feel it panned out the way you figured - stop - work out why - start again
trading is gambling when you are doing it wrong - its a job like any other when you have learned
trading is gambling when you are doing it wrong - its a job like any other when you have learned
Zenda
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paper trading does not work!!
There is no substiture for Real money Trading - It is impossible to go back to paper trading - I presume you mean a demo account! - I do go back to demo accounts when trying out new trading strategies only by watching them operate over a period.
It is also totally useless for a trader or beginner to trade at 1p a point.. To learn trading - do it for real and if you lose IT MUST HURT (not a lot in the beginning ) say 50p or £1 a point so it equates to something in real life - i.e, 100 points at £1 equals a meal for 4 plus wine at a reasonable restraunt. lose £100 it must hurt (I'm talking of normal UK earners) me included.!! Trade anything less or on paper - your fooling yourself!! your not serious - take up Birdwatching.
stevet said:
There is no substiture for Real money Trading - It is impossible to go back to paper trading - I presume you mean a demo account! - I do go back to demo accounts when trying out new trading strategies only by watching them operate over a period.
It is also totally useless for a trader or beginner to trade at 1p a point.. To learn trading - do it for real and if you lose IT MUST HURT (not a lot in the beginning ) say 50p or £1 a point so it equates to something in real life - i.e, 100 points at £1 equals a meal for 4 plus wine at a reasonable restraunt. lose £100 it must hurt (I'm talking of normal UK earners) me included.!! Trade anything less or on paper - your fooling yourself!! your not serious - take up Birdwatching.
BeanCounter
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stevet said:
Zenda said:
What a load of old nonsense
I accept that maybe for some people, trading without money may leave the exercise less valuable; especially those people who may have a trigger problem when dealing with larger sums of money (but this is a different issue; one that is individual to the trader, rather than a hurdle that everyone must overcome)
But a large majority of people, when learning, can use paper trading as a method of stimulating interest in TA, learning common mistakes / pitfalls and generally building up enough confidence to start trading "properly".
And theres no real difference to an experienced trader. It maybe to backtest a new system; or to test a new market; or to reestablish confidence after a series of bruising results. But testing (which is what any paper trading amounts to) is a learning process whatever the underlying reasons are for paper trading.
Arguing that you shouldnt bother practising because its different when pressure is involved (because of the money) is plain codswallop. If someone successfully paper trades for two years; after that time they maybe successful, they may not; all practising ensures is that the probability of success is greater that a trader who has never tested at all.
Zenda
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The Codswallop is yours!
And how much "Real Money" do you make paper trading for two years - what a waste of time (and two years) - we not talking codswallop - YOU ARE!! There is no substutute for trading in actual money - None - 'Bean Counter' do you actually use real cash - ? - It is totally different from proving your theory on paper - and backtesting - you are the type that flies a flight simulator and thinks he can take his family and friends up in a real aircraft!!
BeanCounter said:What a load of old nonsense
Arguing that you shouldnt bother practising because its different when pressure is involved (because of the money) is plain codswallop. If someone successfully paper trades for two years; after that time they maybe successful, they may not; all practising ensures is that the probability of success is greater that a trader who has never tested at all.
And how much "Real Money" do you make paper trading for two years
- what a waste of time (and two years) - we not talking codswallop - YOU ARE!! There is no substutute for trading in actual money - None - 'Bean Counter' do you actually use real cash - ? - It is totally different from proving your theory on paper - and backtesting - you are the type that flies a flight simulator and thinks he can take his family and friends up in a real aircraft!! 
TWI
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It is laughable to hear that experienced traders go back to paper trading. Experienced traders know what they are doing and have a disciplined method or they do not get to the point where they become experienced without losing their capital.
Why would you waste time paper trading when you are earning your living every day using a method that works?
We put new guys on a trainer for 6 weeks when they come in, after that it is real money all the way. The only thing that changes is the amount of risk that they are allowed to take.
The only time you should look at theoretical trades is during research and development of new ideas. The sooner you can get those to the live environement the better it will be for you.
This game has an entrance fee and that may hurt a little but I have yet to meet anybody who didn't pay that at some point in their early days. All you have to do is make sure you don't go too big to quickly.
You gotta be in it to win it.
You are welcome to come to my office for a day and sit on a trainer. I am sure you will learn more here than you will on any course and it will not cost you anything. You can get to talk to people who make their living every day in the market, rather than somebody who goes around charging to tell people how much money they used to make.
Why would you waste time paper trading when you are earning your living every day using a method that works?
We put new guys on a trainer for 6 weeks when they come in, after that it is real money all the way. The only thing that changes is the amount of risk that they are allowed to take.
The only time you should look at theoretical trades is during research and development of new ideas. The sooner you can get those to the live environement the better it will be for you.
This game has an entrance fee and that may hurt a little but I have yet to meet anybody who didn't pay that at some point in their early days. All you have to do is make sure you don't go too big to quickly.
You gotta be in it to win it.
You are welcome to come to my office for a day and sit on a trainer. I am sure you will learn more here than you will on any course and it will not cost you anything. You can get to talk to people who make their living every day in the market, rather than somebody who goes around charging to tell people how much money they used to make.
BeanCounter
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I would agree that there is no "substitute" for using real money: just the same as there a flight simulator is no substitute for learning to fly a plane. However, your argument seems to be that paper trading is a completely worthless exercise: and it is here where we disagree
Two years spent paper trading is two years of leaning TA (we are not all blessed with the ability to get it right first time, or the financial resources to have lessons which "hurt" financially). And the two years I mentioned is an estimated timescale for people to absorb a level of knowledge and feel more confident in their TA. The length of time is down to the individual and their trading strategy (I know a sucessful trader who went through the learning curve for around 6 months).
I use real money and paper trading simultaneously. I learn as much from both: however, the mistakes I make paper trading cost less than those with real money.
And coming back to your flight simulator thing; why do they use them at all when training pilots? Surely, in your thinking, they should just get them in the sky and see whether or not they get the hang of it. So what if theres a costly mistake? Unless it hurts, you'll never learn
And I cant understand why you bother paper trading demo strategies. what possible value could it provide you unless money is involved
Im trying hard to not be condescending; but it does make me laugh when I hear views like these. Personally, I think any individual who when trying something new, has a period of practise before jumping straight in is a wise person.
Two years spent paper trading is two years of leaning TA (we are not all blessed with the ability to get it right first time, or the financial resources to have lessons which "hurt" financially). And the two years I mentioned is an estimated timescale for people to absorb a level of knowledge and feel more confident in their TA. The length of time is down to the individual and their trading strategy (I know a sucessful trader who went through the learning curve for around 6 months).
I use real money and paper trading simultaneously. I learn as much from both: however, the mistakes I make paper trading cost less than those with real money.
And coming back to your flight simulator thing; why do they use them at all when training pilots? Surely, in your thinking, they should just get them in the sky and see whether or not they get the hang of it. So what if theres a costly mistake? Unless it hurts, you'll never learn
And I cant understand why you bother paper trading demo strategies. what possible value could it provide you unless money is involved
Im trying hard to not be condescending; but it does make me laugh when I hear views like these. Personally, I think any individual who when trying something new, has a period of practise before jumping straight in is a wise person.
BeanCounter
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twalker said:
This is exactly my point. Why do your guys even get 6 weeks? And why are they risk capped for a period afterwards? And why theorectically trade druing R&D?
All I'm saying is that in whatever form it takes, and for whatever reason it is taken, practise, evaluation and reconciliation of historical data is what TA boils down to. And money doesnt have to be involved to do that
twalker said:
If the offer is genuine, consider it accepted. Ive always fancied seeing how the pros spend their day..
TWI
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"Ive always fancied seeing how the pros spend their day"
With feet up at the moment actually. Market so quiet I am developing an addiction to posting on BBS's
I was not disagreeing with the theory about starting without real money, it was about the going back to it when things not going well.
I think main point is that you have to pull the trigger at some point. Some people find that bit the hardest and ironically for those the difference between paper and real money will also be the most pronounced.
Actually end bit of last mail was not supposed to be there, I wrote it and then thought I deleted it as I really didn't intend to offer an invitation for people to come here. If you are interested however PM me and we can organise next time you are in London.
With feet up at the moment actually. Market so quiet I am developing an addiction to posting on BBS's
I was not disagreeing with the theory about starting without real money, it was about the going back to it when things not going well.
I think main point is that you have to pull the trigger at some point. Some people find that bit the hardest and ironically for those the difference between paper and real money will also be the most pronounced.
Actually end bit of last mail was not supposed to be there, I wrote it and then thought I deleted it as I really didn't intend to offer an invitation for people to come here. If you are interested however PM me and we can organise next time you are in London.
Zenda
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Paper traders should be put down!
Please be condesending I am beginning to warm to your wild theories and inexperienced reasoning - any more?
BeanCounter said:I would agree that there is no "substitute" for using real money: just the same as there a flight simulator is no substitute for learning to fly a plane. However, your argument seems to be that paper trading is a completely worthless exercise: and it is here where we disagree
After you have traded with Real Money - you can never go back to paper trading - unless you spend your time theorising then tading for 50p - I've met and helped too many!!
Two years spent paper trading is two years of leaning TA (we are not all blessed with the ability to get it right first time, or the financial resources to have lessons which "hurt" financially). And the two years I mentioned is an estimated timescale for people to absorb a level of knowledge and feel more confident in their TA. The length of time is down to the individual and their trading strategy (I know a sucessful trader who went through the learning curve for around 6 months).
I use real money and paper trading simultaneously. I learn as much from both: however, the mistakes I make paper trading cost less than those with real money.
And how did you arrive at this amazing conclusion - Staggering!!
And coming back to your flight simulator thing; why do they use them at all when training pilots? Surely, in your thinking, they should just get them in the sky and see whether or not they get the hang of it. So what if theres a costly mistake? Unless it hurts, you'll never learn
Bean Counter - don't suppose you have got a Pilots Licence either - Incidentally - I have!! (Genuine)
And I cant understand why you bother paper trading demo strategies. what possible value could it provide you unless money is involved
Im trying hard to not be condescending; but it does make me laugh when I hear views like these. Personally, I think any individual who when trying something new, has a period of practise before jumping straight in is a wise person.
Please be condesending I am beginning to warm to your wild theories and inexperienced reasoning - any more?
BeanCounter
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I shall only entertain you with more wild theories if you agree to give me my first pilots lesson: and I wanna have a pop at landing the beast too
On a serious note, it would seem that most "experieced" traders so far agree with your point. However, I think MT confessed a couple of centries ago to using paper trading as a confidence boost.
I have done similiarly (well, to be specific, all my trades are done with just market action wih a smidgen of p&f. Ive been tinkering with using or or two indicators, and have been trying to apply theory by paper trading).
And, as put in my oiginal thread, the day trader I know of went on a 9 Day losing streak: and on the final day they reverted to paper based for a short term period to ensure that it wasnt incorrect application of a strategy that had worked up until that point. A confidence boost, if you will.
But, this maybe an exception as oppossed to the rule: and I sincerely bow to those with superior knowldge. But, I still take some convincing that paper trading is not a decent way of learning, practising & refining trading technique. Maybe you can convince me when we're a couple of miles above ground level
Im off to have a pop on MS Flight Simulator & then create another virtual million
On a serious note, it would seem that most "experieced" traders so far agree with your point. However, I think MT confessed a couple of centries ago to using paper trading as a confidence boost.
I have done similiarly (well, to be specific, all my trades are done with just market action wih a smidgen of p&f. Ive been tinkering with using or or two indicators, and have been trying to apply theory by paper trading).
And, as put in my oiginal thread, the day trader I know of went on a 9 Day losing streak: and on the final day they reverted to paper based for a short term period to ensure that it wasnt incorrect application of a strategy that had worked up until that point. A confidence boost, if you will.
But, this maybe an exception as oppossed to the rule: and I sincerely bow to those with superior knowldge. But, I still take some convincing that paper trading is not a decent way of learning, practising & refining trading technique. Maybe you can convince me when we're a couple of miles above ground level
Im off to have a pop on MS Flight Simulator & then create another virtual million
I'm with BC on this one .
Diving into the market w/o first paper trading is a reckless thing to do , akin more to gambling than serious well thought out trading.
In my view paper trading is a must for begginers before they start trading for real.
Diving into the market w/o first paper trading is a reckless thing to do , akin more to gambling than serious well thought out trading.
In my view paper trading is a must for begginers before they start trading for real.
trendie
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Zenda has a point though.
Trading is 80% pyschological.
On paper, I am brilliant !!
With money, you behave differently.
Paper-trading IS a good start. But only a start.
But the real test of your mettle is when you trade with real money.
When you can put money on a signal, whjen the last 6 signals LOST you money.
When you can go to sleep at night knowing you are risking money.
Paper trading doesnt give you that.
And thats the real test.
Trading is 80% pyschological.
On paper, I am brilliant !!
With money, you behave differently.
Paper-trading IS a good start. But only a start.
But the real test of your mettle is when you trade with real money.
When you can put money on a signal, whjen the last 6 signals LOST you money.
When you can go to sleep at night knowing you are risking money.
Paper trading doesnt give you that.
And thats the real test.
