Who and When

[TheBramble]

"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work. And I have just one interest, and if I am wrong … somebody else can have my job. I want to see this country prosperous. I want to see people get a job. I want to see people get enough to eat. We have never made good on our promises. … I say after eight years of this Administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started. … And an enormous debt to boot."

 

[Trader333]

Was it in May 1939 by any chance ? If so then I think I may know the answer.


Paul

 

[Mr. Charts]

Henry Morgenthau

 

[TheBramble]

Was it in May 1939 by any chance ? If so then I think I may know the answer.


Paul

Nope. But really close.

 

[TheBramble]

Henry Morgenthau

Sorry. Who and When. And anyway, {pedant mode ON} No anway...nurr...

 

[wackypete2]

{pedant mode ON}

Henry Morgenthau Jr May 9, 1939 in Washington, DC

Peter

 

[0007]

Sorry. Who and When. And anyway, {pedant mode ON} No anway...nurr...

May 9, 1939. Morgenthau was appearing before Democrats on the House Ways and Means Committee.

 

[DashRiprock]

"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work. And I have just one interest, and if I am wrong … somebody else can have my job. I want to see this country prosperous. I want to see people get a job. I want to see people get enough to eat. We have never made good on our promises. … I say after eight years of this Administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started. … And an enormous debt to boot."

Morgenthau was appointed Secretary of the Treasury by FDR for his administration. FDR was president from 1933 - 1945.

1933 + 8 = 1941.

so it was Henry Morgenthau Jr. in 1941 at the earliest.

 

[DashRiprock]

infact I don't know who said it, but I just point out that the dates that everyone else is quoting don't make sense.

 

[wackypete2]

infact I don't know who said it, but I just point out that the dates that everyone else is quoting don't make sense.

The date is well documented though.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Hw...morgenthau may 9, 1939 ways and means&f=false

Peter

 

[DashRiprock]

The may 9th date is sourced from two books - the one you linked to, and another - "From the Morgenthau diaries" by John Morton Blum. Both authors claim the quote is from Morgenthaus' diary held at the FDR library.

But, if you look at the user guide of his diaries over that period, there is no reference to the ways and means comittee (which is where he is supposed to have said it)

Volume 188: May 4-May 8,1939
Major Topics (in order of occurrence): Treasury Department enforcement agencies; Morgenthau,
Henry, Jr., statements; Banking Legislation; Nicaragua; Currency; Haas, Saul; Government
Financing; Home Owners' Loan Corporation; National Munitions Control Board; War Conditions;
Harrison, Pat; Export-Import Bank; Latin America; Paraguay; Revenue Revision; Krock, Arthur;
New York Times; Canadian Liquor Cases; Sokol, Harry; Liquor; Government Bond Market; Silver;
Postal Rates; Magill-Shoup Book; Coughlin, Father Charles E.; Kuhn, Loeb, and Company;
France; Roerich, Nicholas; Tax Evasion; Mexico; Petroleum; Business Conditions; Surplus
Commodities; Wheat.
Volume 189: May 9-May 15,1939
Major Topics (in order of occurrence): Bank for International Settlements; Germany; Industrial
Mobilization Plan; War Conditions; Revenue Revision; Gold; Countervailing Duties; Italy;
Annenberg, Moe; Tax Evasion; Canadian Liquor Cases; Liquor; Sokol, Harry; Coughlin, Father
Charles E.; Kuhn, Loeb, and Company; Japan; Poland; Berney, Edward E.; Treasury Department
Personnel Investigations; Argentina; Hook, Charles; Bullitt, William C.; LeHand, Marguerite
("Missy"); Silver; Export-Import Bank; Nicaragua; Appointments and Resignations; Corcoran,
Thomas G.; Foley, Edward H., Jr.; France; Taxation; Treasury Department Reorganization;
Hanes, John W.; Dies Committee; China; Morris, Ira Nelson; Business Conditions; Agriculture;
Schram, Emil; Spain; Van Zeeland, Paul.

http://www.lexisnexis.com/academic/upa_cis/group.asp?g=667

 

[wackypete2]

There certainly is some discrepancy. Some sources say he was commenting while meeting with Democratic members of the ways and mean committee, which I take to mean it wasn't an official session.

Peter

 

[TheBramble]

Well, it's all a bit of a mystery. 1941 and Henry Jnr. are what most of the research documents suggest. But you're right to question this.

It get's even more confusing when he gets associated with the "Morgenthau Plan" which I previously believed was penned by Henry Snr more than 20 years earlier. Jnr could have written it, but unlikely. Then a Hans Morgenthau (no relation AFAIICT) is also listed as the author of this rather unusual (?) document.

Anyone have any definitive source?

 

[DashRiprock]

* The Congressional Record (76th Congress, 84th Volume of the congressional records, 1st session, 9th May 1939) will have a record of it if he really did say it then. There is a reference to that very session here which seems to suggest that most of the focus in congress at that time was the developing war in europe. This is corroborated by congressional records from around that period but who knows how much they get up to.

* Claims that he may have said it in a meeting to someone else could be true. On the 16th May he met with Harry Hopkins, and then on the 22nd he met with Benjamin Cohen and Thoman Corcoran. All of whom were heavily involved in the New Deal.

(http://www.lexisnexis.com/documents/academic/upa_cis/10800_PresDiariesMorgenthau.pdf)

This also tallies with the suggeestion in this guide to the Diaries that in the week or so before these meetings took place there are obviously statements made by HM jr. that are noteworthy (Morgenthau, Henry, Jr., statements). This might help to explain the "8 year" quote, as he may have been talking his argument over with himself beforehand and speaking in generalities. It is also a rather colourful statement, and with war looming I wouldn't be kicking up a fuss about domestic policies if I were him (at least not in public).

http://www.lexisnexis.com/documents/academic/upa_cis/9691_MorgDiariesDepression.pdf

The specific source is from The Presidential diaries of Henry Morgenthau, Jr, which are only available on microform. As yet I can't find anywhere in the UK with them, most library search results are over in the US.

 

[DashRiprock]

Found it



U.S. Treasury Secretary Henry Morgenthau, Jr.: No, gentlemen, we have
tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent
before and it does not work. And I have just one interest, and if I am
wrong, as far as I am concerned, somebody else can have my job. I want
to see this country prosperous. I want to see people get a job. I want to
see people get enough to eat. We have never made good on our
promises…
But why not let’s come to grips? And as I say, all I am interested in
is to really see this country prosperous and this form of Government
continue, because after eight years if we can’t make a success somebody
else is going to claim the right to make it and he’s got the right to make
the trial. I say after eight years of this Administration we have just as
much unemployment as when we started.

Mr. Doughton: And an enormous debt to boot!

HMJr.: And an enormous debt to boot! We are just sitting here and
fiddling and I am just wearing myself out and getting sick. Because why?
I can’t see any daylight. I want it for my people, for my children, and
your children. I want to see some daylight and I don’t see it…


(—Transcript of private meeting at the Treasury Department, May 9,
1939, F.D. Roosevelt Presidential Library)



This comes from this paper

http://econjwatch.org/articles/grea...nged-depression-gauti-eggertsson-on-the-1930s

Which I assume is peer reviewed (AIER Sponsored, but I've never heard of them), so adds more credibility that anyone of pray4profits is ever going to have.

So he never said it to congress, it was said behind closed doors in a meeting with Robert Doughton (who was the Chairman of the Ways and means committee at the time), but the date is probably right. Only way to check is to see the transcript on microform for yourself.

 

[wackypete2]

excellent detective work

Peter

 

[TheBramble]

Nice work DR. If my wife contacts you regarding using your sleuthing services, could you politely refuse.

Seems HM Jnr. found his 'daylight' in the form of WWII.

Still mightily confused over the "Moregenthau Plan". Nothing I have makes sense.

 

[DashRiprock]

what don't you get about it?

 

[TheBramble]

Henry Moregnthau Jnr is credited with formulating the Moregenthau Plan which FDR apparently signed up to as did Churchill (with amendments). The plan effective called for the ‘pastorilisation’ of Germany and division of its lands among the Allies. (Depending on your sources it also called for the extermination of all Germans as an inherently war-like race). It was presented at the Second Quebec Conference in September 1944.

But I also have two independent sources that claim the Morgenthau Plan was the work of a Hans Morgenthau (Politics Among Nations) and was signed up to by Woodrow Wilson at the Versailles 1919 meet. From what I know of Hans M., the more extreme measures suggested seem a stretch, but as I say, two independent sources (one of which I trust) concur.

Hence my confusion.

An unlikely place (t2w) to engage in serious political research, but I figured there likely are others on this site who similarly endeavour to put the pieces together.

 

[Black Swan]

Without googling etc. my first thought was that it might be William Pitt the younger, who is the first subject of Nic Robinson's prime minister series on R4 at 9:30. He faced the worry of a revolution in France spreading contagion..Viva La Republic. On that subject heard a piece that vicars, priests and other voodoo charlatans should now report sham marriages..does William and Kate count?