What is the one thing about options trading that frustrates you?

Q

QuestOptions

Hi everyone,

I want to create an open discussion on this question:

what is the one thing that frustrates you about options trading?

If you haven't traded options before...why is that?

I would love to get this discussion going and lets see if we can learn from each other.
 
Sorry, what exactly is the discussion about?

I am just trying to see if anyone has tried options trading (vanilla) and has gotten frustrated about a specific topic or concept....

For example: "I don't trade options because I don't understand ....."
Maybe some traders find a particular strategy that doesn't make sense to them or a particular theoritcal concept that is not clear.

I apologize if I was not 100 percent clear and hopefully I have not added to the confusion.

thanks
 
Nick, my earlier post was a bit of an in joke so please disregard. On a more supportive note, while you’ve clearly badged yourself as a vendor and appear to have a good pedigree, some members of this site tend to be a tad sensitive to implied product/service selling. I’m sure your intent is to contribute freely as do most.

To answer your question, nothing really frustrates me on the options side any more than does any other aspect of trading. I tend to use options strats more heavily in low volatility markets when outright directional plays offer a low probability of success or are low frequency occurrences.
 
I am just trying to see if anyone has tried options trading (vanilla) and has gotten frustrated about a specific topic or concept....

For example: "I don't trade options because I don't understand ....."
Maybe some traders find a particular strategy that doesn't make sense to them or a particular theoritcal concept that is not clear.

I apologize if I was not 100 percent clear and hopefully I have not added to the confusion.

thanks
No probs... I have all sorts of options frustrations, generally, but I fear they might not be worth discussing here.
 
Nick, my earlier post was a bit of an in joke so please disregard. On a more supportive note, while you’ve clearly badged yourself as a vendor and appear to have a good pedigree, some members of this site tend to be a tad sensitive to implied product/service selling. I’m sure your intent is to contribute freely as do most.

To answer your question, nothing really frustrates me on the options side any more than does any other aspect of trading. I tend to use options strats more heavily in low volatility markets when outright directional plays offer a low probability of success or are low frequency occurrences.

Thanks for the heads up. I actually joined this forum to interact with people and hopefully help them out. I won't be speaking about specific markets, bragging or handing out any trade reccomendations.

Through time you will see this but it makes sense to be hesitant because I am new and the stigma of me being a vendor.

back to the topic and thanks again for getting involved:
I like your idea here of using options for directional plays when volatility is low.

do you compare historical volatility to implied volatility, comparing where implied volatility is from its hi's/lo's for the year or some other kind of other metric?
 
do you compare historical volatility to implied volatility, comparing where implied volatility is from its hi's/lo's for the year or some other kind of other metric?

No. If I'm not getting any directional plays then the volatility is low enough for me to straddle. Similarly with other basic plays. I don't pay too much attention to the greeks as the underlying gives me my cues.
 
No probs... I have all sorts of options frustrations, generally, but I fear they might not be worth discussing here.

well you are a legendary member so you know this forum a lot better than I do. My experience is that if you are stuck on something there is probably a good chance someone else might be stuck on the same subject matter or topic.

Who knows you might be helping someone else out by discussing something they are having issues with as well...
 
No. If I'm not getting any directional plays then the volatility is low enough for me to straddle. Similarly with other basic plays. I don't pay too much attention to the greeks as the underlying gives me my cues.

very cool...I agree with you that option greeks can be misleading for many strategies, especially the straddle (delta-neutral). What kind of time frame do you usually look at (time to expiration)?
 
well you are a legendary member so you know this forum a lot better than I do. My experience is that if you are stuck on something there is probably a good chance someone else might be stuck on the same subject matter or topic.

Who knows you might be helping someone else out by discussing something they are having issues with as well...
TBH, I don't get too excited about my exalted "Legendary Member" status (maybe, it's the whole "member" bit that puts me off a bit, who knows). At any rate, I am certainly happy to discuss, but I think we need to be a bit more specific. Why don't you propose an interesting topic that you think is worth discussing? Otherwise, I can suggest smth...
 
TBH, I don't get too excited about my exalted "Legendary Member" status (maybe, it's the whole "member" bit that puts me off a bit, who knows). At any rate, I am certainly happy to discuss, but I think we need to be a bit more specific. Why don't you propose an interesting topic that you think is worth discussing? Otherwise, I can suggest smth...

I am open to your suggestions!

Let me know if this is ok.

Are there any strategies out there or style of trade you are most comfortable with or there any strategies out there that you simply would not do because you feel its too complicated or doesn't fit your risk profile.

We can even talk about strategy selection: what is the "right" contract month or the "right" strike price to select.

strategy examples: long premium, short premium, range bound strategies, volatility strategies..etc

strategy names: (Short/Long) calls, puts, condors, butterflies, time spreads...etc

This is an idea but if anyone else has some thoughts please don't hesitate to contribute.

thanks
 
Well, I don't have any hard and fast rules, per se, that define the "rights" and "wrongs". Every trade has to be evaluated on its own individual merits. However, in general, I do find that there's a point of diminishing returns where the number of legs is concerned and, in my experience, that's arnd 3. So that means that I am not a big fan of condors, iron flies and all that blx.
 
Well, I don't have any hard and fast rules, per se, that define the "rights" and "wrongs". Every trade has to be evaluated on its own individual merits. However, in general, I do find that there's a point of diminishing returns where the number of legs is concerned and, in my experience, that's arnd 3. So that means that I am not a big fan of condors, iron flies and all that blx.

you make a lot of sense...I was joking about the "right" strike and months. At the end of the day you just want to have a strategy that matches your market opinion.

Condors and butterflies can be very effective if you are in a high volatility environment and you feel the underlying is going to stay within a range and you feel that volatility will drop.

as far as using them for directional plays they are very dependent on the range you pick and how close you are to expiration.
 
Yep, my rule of thumbs, generally, are sorta like this:
1) If implied vol is high and you have a view where the underlying is going to settle, buy flies, but be prepared to not see any PNL on it till very near to expiry.
2) If implied vol is high and you just have a view on general direction, buy call/put spreads.
3) If skew is high and you believe in the boundedness of the underlying, buy ratio call/put spreads (1x2s or smth like that).
4) If implied vol is low, buy nekkid options till you can't see straight.

As I mentioned, these aren't hard and fast rules, but more in the nature of guidelines that help me narrow things down reasonably quickly.
 
Yep, my rule of thumbs, generally, are sorta like this:
1) If implied vol is high and you have a view where the underlying is going to settle, buy flies, but be prepared to not see any PNL on it till very near to expiry.
2) If implied vol is high and you just have a view on general direction, buy call/put spreads.
3) If skew is high and you believe in the boundedness of the underlying, buy ratio call/put spreads (1x2s or smth like that).
4) If implied vol is low, buy nekkid options till you can't see straight.

As I mentioned, these aren't hard and fast rules, but more in the nature of guidelines that help me narrow things down reasonably quickly.

these guidelines are very solid....are you an ex pilot or something? lol
 
i haven't traded them but what frustrates me is accounting for them (particularly in the context of consolidated reporting) and the fact that pricing models overestimate prices as the option moves closer to expiry

also something i've had on my mind since learning about options: following some not-so-sound logic (borrowed from game theory):

if i buy an option expiring in a month that yields positive gain only if i sell it, if it expires i make $0. my best response is clearly to sell that, but the other player in the game (or a set of identical players) is facing the same scenario, therefore they will not buy the option, i decrease asking price, still no sale, this repeats n times until option expiry but yet options still hold value.

obviously flawed logic and being able to convert options to shares is what stops this cycle from happening (that and asymmetric information) but still an interesting thought experiment

also what's kept me out of options is no leverage (strictly speaking about outright options trading, buy options from x and sell to y) with my minuscule risk capital entering a position would mean my 2% risk per trade would be about %10 of the spread lol
 
also something i've had on my mind since learning about options: following some not-so-sound logic (borrowed from game theory):

if i buy an option expiring in a month that yields positive gain only if i sell it, if it expires i make $0. my best response is clearly to sell that, but the other player in the game (or a set of identical players) is facing the same scenario, therefore they will not buy the option, i decrease asking price, still no sale, this repeats n times until option expiry but yet options still hold value.

obviously flawed logic and being able to convert options to shares is what stops this cycle from happening (that and asymmetric information) but still an interesting thought experiment
You're confused, amico, and your logic isn't quite right.
 
i haven't traded them but what frustrates me is accounting for them (particularly in the context of consolidated reporting) and the fact that pricing models overestimate prices as the option moves closer to expiry

also something i've had on my mind since learning about options: following some not-so-sound logic (borrowed from game theory):

if i buy an option expiring in a month that yields positive gain only if i sell it, if it expires i make $0. my best response is clearly to sell that, but the other player in the game (or a set of identical players) is facing the same scenario, therefore they will not buy the option, i decrease asking price, still no sale, this repeats n times until option expiry but yet options still hold value.

obviously flawed logic and being able to convert options to shares is what stops this cycle from happening (that and asymmetric information) but still an interesting thought experiment

also what's kept me out of options is no leverage (strictly speaking about outright options trading, buy options from x and sell to y) with my minuscule risk capital entering a position would mean my 2% risk per trade would be about %10 of the spread lol

well options are based on probability theory as well as supply and demand. The supply and demand aspect is what makes them so dynamic.

Say an author comes out with a book and sells it on amazon for $15. A couple years pass and the book is out of print. Those demanding the book now have to pay a lot more because they can not find the book anywhere else.

So you have this theoretical price but the supply and demand aspect is what really drives the price. Now if the author were to reprint the book then the price of the book would go back to or close to it's original value.

I see this with book titles all the time, maybe you have as well. Options are similar in that aspect. Supply, demand and liquidity play a major factor.

Say you have you have xyz trading at 100 with 30 days left until expiration. The 100 call has a value of $3.00. If the xyz stays put in price or declines that option will expire worthless. The market maker has to make it attractive for both buyers and sellers. They don't necessarily want to be net buyers or net sellers of the option. They want to make money by selling the option for a little bit more than what it is worth to you and buy it for a little bit less than what it is worth from you.

So we use theory as an estimate for option value but we use the forces of supply and demand to get the actual option premium.

What makes the option have value is the "probability" or the potential that it can finish in the money or have intrinsic value.

As time passes the chances of the option reaches certain levels decreases and hence the option value decreases.

In many cases the more time associated with the option the greater the probability there is to see the underlying have large movements hence the higher option value for the longer term option.

Many studies have shown that option prices follow a normal distribution around the expected return more often the Black-Scholes model predicts but does an extremely terrible job of predicting price moves larger than 3 standard deviations (fat tails).

So you are very right in that there are deficiencies in pricing models. Based on your risk management plan you are also right in not trading if you are not giving yourself a chance to come out on top. If the trade doesn't make sense no reason to pursue it.
 
What a stupid topic, what sort of crack head sits there thinkin, 'I wonder what frustrates people about options trading?', I would have some respect for you if you said something along the lines of I hate options trading because vol movements erode your p/l, what does everyone else think is frustrating. But I guess there are too many weirdos in this world, who am I to say what is right or wrong
 
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