Very serious about learning

[Rooster34]

I had an epiphany today about how Im going about trying to learn to trade.
I'm going about it backwards, several years ago I got into futures because of a Ken Roberts mailer. I obviously didn't have great success with his system nor did I have any monumental failures. I even made a little profit on a few small options.

That experience taught me 2 things, 1) I really like futures and I want to make a living trading and 2) it is possible albiet just not with a hucksters magic 199 dollar course.

I got married and had kids shortly after that and any chance of discresionary funds for trading sorta went outthe window and I put trading on he back burner.

Recently me and my wife have both gotten raises and/or promotions and we have eliminated some debt. So now once again I have started to dedicate funds to an account.
I'm starting small. I have anywhere from 100 to 200 a check I send in to my account and I am on track to meet my goal of having a 5000 USD account by this time next year. I think this speaks to my dedication. After several years of living paycheck to paycheck I am using my excess cash to learn to trade. I could get a nicer car, I could go out and toss back a few pints every Friday night with my buddies. I could take up golf and spend my money on greens fees and clubs. However I want to trade and I want to make money at it. Plain and simple.

Here is the crux of my epiphany if I want to do anything else In life I can look at results first and choose to spend my time and money in a wise manner. If I wanted to learn powerlifting I could find the club that has the most elite litters in their organization and join. I can't reverse engineer trading though, I can't get a financial breakdown from say Michael Covel and find out how much he makes trading as opposed to how much he makes from courses and seminars.

So here is my question, have any of you on his board become financially independant starting with a small account by trading futures? And if so would you be willing to share any insights such as ( but not limited to ) systems, psychology, money management, and any other areas you deem important. I realize this is a deeply personal thing to ask, so if anyone does reply it will be greatly appreciated.

 

[N Rothschild]

i would say the answer is no accross the board. i dont know anyone who started small and made it big. you will find lots of people who started small and failed, or started small and stayed small, then went on to open a trading room or sell courses

as for your dedication, who you trying to convince us or yourself?

 

[Rooster34]

Thanks for the reply. Do you think that starting small and staying small is a function of psychology such as risk tolerance and money management? Or is it just impossible?

 

[N Rothschild]

near imposible. the length of time it would take to build a small account into a big one takes for ever. only way to do it is with high leverage and high risk, and that only ever ends one way. maybe over 5 years you could turned it into a decent sized account with no major screw ups

 

[N Rothschild]

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/trading-journals/97528-50-pip-eur-usd-5k-account.html

here is a good example, this guy spunked 5k in a few days despite my warnings.

Trading is a bit like all the wanabes that go on x factor thinking they are going to be the next michael jackson when its never going to happen.

in reality trading is for those who can afford it. afford to devote all there time and not work another job, afford to take loses, afford to recapatilize there accounts after a blow up.

sorry to be so blunt but this is how it is and most people are in denial.

 

[Chartsy]

well, trade a small account and get consistent, show a prop firm, become a trader.

 

[Trader333]

have any of you on his board become financially independant starting with a small account by trading futures?

It is possible but unlikely in my view.


Paul

 

[Rooster34]

N Rothschild, I asked for bluntness. You are not offending me. I went through my "holy crap I could be a millionare of that soybean move alone" already. So I understand why you would say it.

as far as dedication, the Internet full of tough guys and rockstars, so I understand the scetpical tone. I'm neither a tough guy or a rockstar and don't pretend to be either.

So let me redirect my inquiries. If you had a small account <10000 USD and chose to trade commodities where would you begin? Also what do you consider a appropriate sized account to start with?
At the moment I have the ability to dedicate about 5k a year to futures, when I'm done with school it will be double that. So what is appropriate 10k 20k 50...

I am NOT looking to pick an Internet fight ( lame ) or discount the advice of people more knowledgable than me. I'm simply seeking information.

 

[Rooster34]

Btw I'm reading the link provided, that's and expensive lesson.

 

[Chartsy]

ooo, i misread, futures? well you definitely need a beefish account to happily trade futures....
actually, 5000 USD gets you 1 contract of ES, actually maybe better with the YM, small point size, $5 a tick unlike $12.50 on ES, dont trade commodities as they have high tick values.

i'd say try the ninjatrader mirus futures demo and trade YM for a few months....once confident go live

edit: YM is the emini dow by the way, index future, and is pretty liquid too, not as liquid as ES but for 1 contract it's well enough. also there was a futures skype room around , ask robster or someone in it if you can join as they are experienced emini traders and could definitely help, though i don't know if it's still up

 

[Rooster34]

Chartsy, I'll check it out. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Black Swan]

near imposible. the length of time it would take to build a small account into a big one takes for ever. only way to do it is with high leverage and high risk, and that only ever ends one way. maybe over 5 years you could turned it into a decent sized account with no major screw ups

I disagree mon ami; I could make 2K a month out of a 5K account most months (forex +oil). In fact I reckon a grand a week is v. possible with only 2/3% risk per trade... Now I accept that's not big bananas and I'm not too bad at this trading malarky, but all the same I don't consider the performance I've outlined exceptional, just run of the mill...

 

[tomorton]

Keep at it Rooster. There's no quick way to fortunes through trading without massive silly risk. A few have made it with amazing good luck but we hear nothing from the cannon fodder who didn't.

Reward = Risk x Time x Capital
So, if you start with small Capital, and you don't take large Risk, you are going to have to take much Time.
There are many ways to win the game if you don't get knocked out by taking silly levels of Risk. Just stay alive long enough to be consistent, then you can ratchet up your Capital which will cut your Time, still without excessive Risk. Keep at it.

 

[Rooster34]

Tomorton, that is the plan. I'm got over my "get rich quick" outlook about 6 months after I purchased a Ken roberts course. Lol.

I guess I'm looking for a direction, a book, a plan, a knowledge base, to learn when and how to trade. How much to risk, when to enter and exit trades, ect ect.

How does one learn to trade if buying internet gurus courses is a ticket to the poorhouse?

 

[N Rothschild]

by losing, alot.

 

[bevok]

Chartsy's advice is good, although you'll learn most when real money is on the line as NR is suggesting. Plug away with a simple system for a while so that you get used to the ups and downs, see the results of hanging on to your winners and feel the punishment of averaging down/holding on waiting for a loser to recover. Getting through that while retaining your discipline and determination is the main challenge - learning entry and exit techniques isn't really that much of a mystery if you keep your ear to the ground on here. Work out who is worth listening to and who is full of hot air! There are a handful of useful books around - I think they're a better investment than these courses which as you've already discovered are generally a complete waste of time and money.

 

[Chartsy]

Chartsy's advice is good, although you'll learn most when real money is on the line as NR is suggesting. Plug away with a simple system for a while so that you get used to the ups and downs, see the results of hanging on to your winners and feel the punishment of averaging down/holding on waiting for a loser to recover. Getting through that while retaining your discipline and determination is the main challenge - learning entry and exit techniques isn't really that much of a mystery if you keep your ear to the ground on here. Work out who is worth listening to and who is full of hot air! There are a handful of useful books around - I think they're a better investment than these courses which as you've already discovered are generally a complete waste of time and money.

calculated averaging down, and not random, is a serious tool.

 

[SB_Beginner]

Hi Rooster,

I like you am still fairly new to the trading game. I think so far I have broken most of the rules in the book, but I am trying to learn from my mistakes on the road to trading success.

 

[ZurichTrader]

Reward = Risk x Time x Capital
So, if you start with small Capital, and you don't take large Risk, you are going to have to take much Time.
There are many ways to win the game if you don't get knocked out by taking silly levels of Risk. Just stay alive long enough to be consistent, then you can ratchet up your Capital which will cut your Time, still without excessive Risk. Keep at it.

I agree with tomorton here. This is how I was taught and it is what I teach my traders now. The only way to ensure you have enough time to get yourself onto a favourable point on the probability curve is to keep your risk small enough that you are still in the game when you get there!

 

[Rooster34]

Thanks everyone for the replies, N Rothschild in particular. I have been obsessively reading posts on here and on another prominate forum.
It's funny, even after my Ken Roberts experience I guess I was still looking for "the one true way".
There is no one true way. Only the way that works for you.
In that vain, I'm going to get a book that spoke to me, trade day by day by chick
goslin, and start a journal of papertrades. If in 6-12 months I can't be profitable on paper I'll choose another strategy. I know papertrading does not ensure success, actually I know it very well, but not testing your strategy before hand ensures failure I believe.