Ukraine invasion

Mumpsimus said:
You may well be right that many Russians never wanted the war in the first place but equally, an awful lot did. What seems to be unbelievable through western eyes can make perfect sense if you've been fed a steady stream of single message propaganda. Russian scepticism has to drastically increase, so much so that the anti-war folk are able to have any influence on the Kremlin. As it is, I see fat chance of that happening before the Ukrainians have been bludgeoned into submission which means that it will either be due to the scenario I mentioned earlier where Russia loses its best energy customers (2 to 3 years at an absolute minimum imo) or that the Ukrainian occupation degenerates into an asymptomatic war along the lines of Afghanistan, which of course would probably mean the deliberate destruction of any useful infrastructure and mass murder. Large numbers of coffins coming back home to Russia might sway things in the shorter term but it hasn't bothered Putin in the past so one has to hope that the cracks show around him rather than hoping that he's going to turn over a new leaf.
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Agreed his position now is clear to everyone. Sadly we have to rely on the people around him gaining a conscience and the anti-war movement getting more vocal and aggressive. Really sad scenario.
 
Atilla said:
. . . No need to go into the history or the rights and wrongs but anybody who remembers the Cuban missile crisis should understand Ukraine joining NATO will get an extremely cold reaction. . .
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Spot on At' - good post.
Still feels a bit odd saying that in response to a post by you! 😍

Anyone who thinks this conflict is a simple matter of bad guy Vs good guy really, really needs to think again. Anyone who thinks the MSM in the west is any less biased and riddled with propaganda than Russian state media really, really needs to think some more. The whole crisis is waaaay more complicated and nuanced than the government and talking heads would have us all believe. For those who want to understand what's going on, this short article provides some clarity and contains some very good links well worth checking out - especially the first one to John Mearsheimer, Professor of Political Science, University of Chicago talking about Ukraine back in 2015:

What People Don’t Get About the ‘NATO Argument’​


Those who want to get into the complicated history - and boy oh boy is it complicated, then this interview by James Delingpole with Alex Thomson is as good a starting point as any: https://www.bitchute.com/video/6BRT64jaB91L/
Tim.
 
timsk said:
We're told by MSM that Putin's a nutjob - which he may well be - but I for one won't take their word for it. We're told he's invaded Ukraine, but there's surprisingly little evidence of that that I can see. Sure, it's clear that military action is taking place there, but air strikes and artillery fire don't constitute an invasion - you need boots on the ground for that and lots of 'em. Where are they? Now, before anyone gets the wrong idea, I must emphasise that I don't like Putin, I don't support him, I don't trust him and I don't agree with his actions. But, equally, I don't like, support, trust or agree with the actions of most western leaders or legacy media propaganda. The era of good guys vs bad guys is long gone - as far as I'm concerned they're all bad guys now.
Tim.

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Good to read your view on this timsk. Anti-vaxxers and freedom protesters aren't the bad guys anymore! The attempts by hypocritical Western Governments and the complicit mainstream media to portray an "enemy" like Putin as Hitler is such a predictable and worn out cliché that it comes across as cartoonish rather than something that can be taken seriously. Is Putin bad? Don't know, I've never met him, but having read comments from Russians, the consensus is he is no worse than any other leader from NATO countries.


I completely agree with you, the pandemic has simply reinforced my view that there is no such thing as good guys and bad guys and it won't be long before NATO start killing civilians again with their humanitarian bombs - to save us all from some bogeyman.
 
ffsear said:
Purely out of interest, what does a uranium tipped weapon do?
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These are from google...

SILVER BULLET made from depleted uranium can pierce even the heaviest armor. Uranium shells burn away at the edges upon impact¿a "self-sharpening" that helps them bore into armor. Used as ammunition, it penetrates the thick steel encasing enemy tanks; used as armor, it protects troops against attack.5 Mar 2001 -

The Science of the Silver Bullet

Depleted uranium has been hailed as the military’s new silver bullet and condemned as Kosovo’s Agent Orange
www.scientificamerican.com www.scientificamerican.com

Are depleted uranium shells banned?

Typically, depleted-uranium rounds are used on armored vehicles, such as tanks and troop transports, and there is no international treaty or rule that explicitly bans their use.16 Feb 2017


Months after the Pentagon said it wouldn’t use a controversial type of armor-piercing ammunition that has been blamed for long-term health complications, U.S. aircraft fired thousands of the rounds during two high-profile air raids in Syria in November 2015, the Pentagon acknowledged Wednesday.


The real war mongering monsters are within trying to create enemies to justify their atrocities. For the US, it was first the commies, then the geurillas, then the religious fanatics and now back to cold war again. US petrified hatred of socialists clearly still very strong.

One has the justify the expenditure on how to best butcher people somehow.

Do they have trade unions in Americas?
 
Atilla said:
I'm not condoning the Russian invasion into Ukraine but I do think there is a lot of hypocrisy here...

I would respect your pov more if you had consistent sentiments about Iraq, Syria, Iran and Libya and Latin America but there is no consistency from my perspective. The same goes for Afghanistan and no idea why the US didn't attack Saudi but you guys get the gist.

US, UK and France have caused countless regime changes all over the World. The US ranks 1st and France 2nd with Africa. The UK is a big player of sorts too but far more subtle.

Iraq war was illegal, there was no justification for war. US and UK went in alone. They basically killed, raped and pillaged the country key interest being oil of course. No WMD or Nukes ever found but US told UN and the world they knew Saddam had them and that they were hidden. Slam dunk case.

The US did the same in its background in Latin America, opposing any democratically elected socialist government. They supported Juntas who tortured the sh!t out of anybody with an ounce of social integrity in them.

Today in Iraq there are well above average deformed babies due to the use of uranium tipped weapons left all over the country.


I beg to differ with the mega skewed news reporting on our MSM. Russians have gone in very gently. The mission is not to kill or destroy but clearly to implement regime change. No need to go into the history or the rights and wrongs but anybody who remembers the Cuban missile crisis should understand Ukraine joining NATO will get an extremely cold reaction.

I feel very sorry for the Ukrainian people and support their freedom and independence, however, one has to tread a carefully balanced line when one has such troubles on one's borders.

I think there is or was a great opportunity to play off Russia and the US off against each other whilst conducting affairs. Swiss model comes to mind. However, the level of diplomacy required is well above the comedian's abilities. He is indeed a brave man. The situation doesn't require bravery imo but some cool heads and common sense.

I fear if the Ukrainian people choose to fight the bear, Ukraine will become just another one of those proxy countries; much like Iraq, Syria and Iran in the war between US and Russia.

Very sad and tragic situation and I do hope peace will prevail.

I suspect the Russians will use the utilities such as electric power, water and food to bring the people into control and submission in their efforts to navigate to a new level of authoritarian control over the country. They will establish their friendly political party and leader no doubt. Not ideal but at least better than war death and destruction. Then after many decades there will come a day, much like Germany, Ukraine can carry on as before.

IMO negotiations and diplomacy better than death and destruction and Zelensky whilst a super guy and has done well, Russians have left him a back door he can leave out of with his head held high.

I wish peace for Ukraine and hope they can see US and the West have no interest in their country or people but to peddle wars, separation and opportunity to sell weapons.


View attachment 314449
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Whats the Why.
 
The post below was made not by me but someone with the username 'Fireweasel' in response to this article, published on the Daily Sceptic. IMO, it's very informative - enjoy . . .

The rise of Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky?

Ihor Kolomoyskyi is a high-status gangster in Ukraine. He’s barred from the US for crimes and is under investigation by Israel. Kolomoyskyi was at one time a governor of a regional area in Ukraine, but was dismissed or ousted from this position in 2014.

Ihor Kolomoyskyi wanted revenge for this ousting and got it through his ownership of a television station in Ukraine. He ran the TV show, Servant of the People, starring Volodymyr Zelenskyy – in this TV show Zelenskyy played the role of president of Ukraine.

It seems certain that this two-bit TV show was astroturfed, that is, its viewing ratings were artificially increased to make it seem a very popular show.

Then Ihor Kolomoyskyi steered Volodymyr Zelenskyy into politics. This is where the astroturfed ratings for the TV show probably came in. If election fraud was needed to get Zelenskyy past the post, people would be less suspicious because the TV show had already shown that Zelenskyy was very popular in Ukraine.


“Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy rode to power on pledges to clean up the Eastern European country, but the Pandora Papers reveal he and his close circle were the beneficiaries of a network of offshore companies, including some that owned expensive London property.


“Volodymyr Zelenskyy’s profile in the World Economic Forum.”


“Breaking down Ukraine – let’s start with Zelenskyy’s $35M mansion in Sunny Isles, FL built by Kolomoisky and Pinchuk. $1.3B in the bank!!”
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The legally elected president of Ukraine moved in 2014 to align his country with Russia, who he correctly viewed as being a lesser bully for Ukraine to align with than the gangster-controlled and Schwab/Soros NGO West.

The crooked Western Cabal couldn’t countenance that, so they fomented a coup d’état and now we have the bent corrupt little Zelenskyy attempting to coerce women and children to go out on the streets and attack Russian tanks with Molotov cocktails.

The moral of the story for Ukrainians is that if they opened their eyes 8-years ago and fought their crooked oligarchs and Schwab’s/Soros’ NGOs, and told the gangster-controlled West to fu*k-off, they would not now have an invading Russian army rolling across their countryside.

There’s also a moral in this story for people in the West: if they don’t get off their butts and dispose of the gangster oligarchs that rule them, they are going to also pay dearly for it.

zelenskyy.png
 
corrupt little Zelenskyy attempting to coerce women and children to go out on the streets and attack Russian tanks with Molotov cocktails.
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I have the same opinion of the despicable Volodymyr Zelenskyy, who like a typical despot, is desperate to do anything to stay in power, even sacrifice his own citizens. What a pathetic human being!

Remember this whenever a politician asks you to sacrifice a bit of your freedom in exchange for security.
 
Putin has asked Zelensky to surrender. A new elected government in a regime change will be in the interest of both parties.

Alternative, maybe many more deaths and prolonged war with pretty much the same outcome.

The US would like to see Ukraine become like another Afghanistan, to inflict damage to Russia causing death and financial burden little people. However, Ukraine is not Afghanistan and the two countries do have a history as well as lingo.

Zelensky bunkering down demonstrating fighting spirit will come at a cost; civilian deaths and destruction of Ukraine.

Let's say Ukraine wins and joins NATO, they will then make themselves a primary target for nukes, facing years of aggression from their fellow brethren and close neighbour and ally.

Zelensky should be mature enough to understand that a negotiated early settlement and peace now is in everyones interest but US.

A prolonged war, death and destruction is not in Ukraine or Russian interests, only US.

Options are pretty clear.
 
Atilla said:
A new elected government in a regime change will be in the interest of both parties.
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Putin wants tu turn Ukraine into another Belarus where Lukashenko has been "elected" for 20 years ...
 
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Atilla said:
Alternative, maybe many more deaths and prolonged war with pretty much the same outcome.
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Aternative is a longer war, more deaths, collapse of Russian economy, a coup o a revolution in Russia, end of Putin regime.
 
Putin worked until 2008, than it was time to go for him but he dicided to become a new tzar, and now here we are...
 
new_trader said:
Remember this whenever a politician asks you to sacrifice a bit of your freedom in exchange for security.
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Hi n_t,
As an aside, I think I'm right in saying you're a Mises man? If so, (and even if you're not!) - do you think a crack up boom is underway?
Tim.
 
Unfortunatelly it is not just about "neutral Ukraine".
Putin wants to denazify-disarm Ukraine = install a friend puppet gov like in Belarus.

Invading a country to make it neutral... only a fool can think it...
 
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