UK house prices

K-Tel have released a Christmas Special - George W. Bush and John Prescott singing....

{come on guys & gals....let's have some ideas......}
 
"I think the housing cost issue is likely to take care of itself - as it always does through a combination of reduction in the disparity between earnings and housing costs and the innovative implementation of clever financial instruments (multi-generation mortgages).".....................major unknown crisis nothwithstanding I would agree with this...people get locked into thinking that there are only limited solutions...crash bang etc all based on one or two prior historical events....of course markets do make major shifts and then historical context /approaches are out of the window..has you say traditional basis for mortgaging may evolve into something that we have never seen before in the UK simply to accomodate a major shift....I think it is easy to underestimate the change in people's thinking re bricks and mortar and other assets..there is now a deep mistrust in traditional financial instruments for long term wealth and that is going to take some shaking off .Bricks and mortar are the positive recipients of that issue.
 
TheBramble -
At a time when they are virtually forcing house building companies to produce 'affordable' housing, increasing the housing density (12/acre)

Hi

I notice that you rightly put the word "affordable" in inverted commas. John Prescotts interpretation of what is affordable and Joe publics interpretation of what is affordable must be two very different things.
Houses are being built more densely/on top of each other now - so that they are virtually connected - this does not look good in my opinion.

Sorry to put a downer on things, but I think this country has passed its sell-by date and is going to the dogs (no offence dogs). TB and his New Labour crew haven't helped one bit.
 
JT,
"Sorry to put a downer on things, but I think this country has passed its sell-by date and is going to the dogs"............everything is relative and there are a lot of people out there trying to GET INTO this country so what does that tell you ? Beware the grass is greener syndrome !
 
chump said:
JT,
everything is relative and there are a lot of people out there trying to GET INTO this country so what does that tell you ? !
It tells me indigenous prostitution and catering industry staff are going to feel the pinch from the Eastern European influx.

This is in no way to be interpreted as a racist comment - I have absolutely no view on the matter. But it is a fact that legal (and illegal) E. European workers in both these areas now outnumber 'locals'. Of course, the count of illegals has to be treated with caution...

To side with JT - I would have to say the grass would have to be a pretty atrocious green to make the UK look attractive. But I imagine most of us (traders) have the privilege of considering our options from a rather different perspective. We're not forced to stay - we can trade from anywhere. One less tie that binds.
 
LOL........ Va du yu Vant mister ... I just thought she had her chewing gum stuck
 
Hi

when i say that this country is going to the dogs - I am actually referring to my interpretation of the UK which is shaped by the National and Regional news bulletins and the media at large. Crime, drugs, house prices, cost of living etc..........................I have come to the conclusion (with the help of my newly purchased DVD - Billy Connolly's World Tour of New Zealand - a nice country as i see it) - that there is too much news on TV these days. There is only so much worrying that a person has in them - the more news you watch - the more layers of s**t you end up carrying around with you!...............................
My proposed solution is to watch less news programs and less TV in general. This should prove to be an interesting experiment into social psychology......................

No doubt residents in most countries world wide can argue that things are on a downward spiral - this may be just symptomatic of the world in the 21st century. But I can certainly see why that there are much worse places in the World to live than the UK. End of moaning!
 
JT,
Rule number one...bad news sells better than good news....
Rule number two......reporters / journalists get paid to 'make' news that sells
Rule number three....read papers , watch television news , but treat it with a kind of benign contempt based on Rules 1 and 2 and you will find it doesn't 'stick' to you.
 
chump -
JT,
Rule number one...bad news sells better than good news....
Rule number two......reporters / journalists get paid to 'make' news that sells
Rule number three....read papers , watch television news , but treat it with a kind of benign contempt based on Rules 1 and 2 and you will find it doesn't 'stick' to you.

Thanks chump for the interesting advice. I will take it on board and hopefully I can look forward to seeing a hard, shell like exterior getting stronger by the day!
 
Well we are now beginning to see the sheer genius unfold before us that reflects that razor-sharp space that resides between the ears of John Prescott....we property investors must be quaking at the master stroke he has planned..did I say planned ? OK ,proposed might be a better word...at a stroke he will create the ability to own housing which no one in there right mind would wish to own..sounds familiar..where have we seen this before ? Oh yes , housing scheme type estates which most people get out of as fast as they can leaving behind a core of people who can't , or don't wish to move , which all too often leads to degeneration of the development..but never mind because after it has gone down the pan the local govt can use our council taxes to redevelop it...LOL....I suspect I might be a long time dead before the govt get's the message that it really has very little control over the market price of property and it's attempts to intervene invariably end in hindsight 'tears'...
 
The problems with opinions. Is someone who is invested in property will give 101 reasons why it should go up or in the case it will not go down.

But for the first time buyer or anyone who is interested in buying a property will give 101 reasons why it should not go up and should go down.

The end of the day it's a market, it goes up and down and you always get a crash or two on the way.

I own my own house no plans to sell or buy.Im just looking at it as a market point of view

sun
 
Update

Well Spring is in the air and the ski jacket back in the wardrobe :( ,but more importantly we are once again at a critical point in the property market. This is the time of year when property can historically expect to get an uplift from people's migratory instincts....the big question ,will it happen this year and if so will it be enough to buy the market time to stabilise ?

Apparently some areas and price bands are under pressure whilst others are still holding to within a reasonable price band ,but this spring should determine whether that continues. A lot of course depends on interest rates which personally I still see as a bit of an unknown. There are arguments for and against what happens next ,but of course if this was perfectly tansparent we would all be super rich.

Housebuilders today
http://www.business.telegraph.co.uk...nuId=242&sSheet=/money/2005/04/27/ixcity.html

Back in posts 61 ,64 ,66 suggested this was the most likely outcome..no crystal ball , just basic economics and commercial nous...for the stock futures traders it occurs to me there might be some shorting opportunities to be had in that sector....

I'll be out and about searching for useful stats and if I find any that are pertinent one's I will post them.

Last ,but not least ,from April next year your friendly tax inspector will give you tax relief when you, for the first time, are allowed to hold residential property in your pension fund....don't miss this unique opportunity...ramp..ramp and in case you missed it...RAMP...for those of a 'fluffy' disposition who may be considering this remember what your mummy told you about talking to strangers (or Independent Financial Advisors)...
 
There are a few things that are happening with regard to the housing market and some quite alarming if they turn out to be true.

1) Inflation is rising and that means that interest rates are likely to follow. If they do then we will likely see house prices start to decline.

2) Applications for mortgages are also increasing which would indicate that some people are looking to buy

3) Sellers are just not prepared to drop prices at the moment which has caused a general lack of house movement.

4) This is the most worrying point that I have heard (if true). The government is short of money against planned spending and paying for the Iraq war and is considering a plan to tax us at 40% on the profit of our "FIRST" home. If this happens it will have two quite dramatic effects in my view. The first will see a surge in people selling before the new legislation comes in so prices are likely to drop. Then once the legislation does come it the reverse could easily happen, ie no-one will want to sell at a 40% loss on profits so it may well cause prices to rise. It will also mean that people are much less likely to move home unless absolutely necessary. It could also be the "Poll Tax" equivalent for the government if they dare to bring it in.


Paul
 
Paul,
I have heard very much the same,but as regards point 4 inparticular I think in the duration of the next govt at least it probably will not happen. This govt (leopards spots) show a preference for stealth taxation...the form of tax brought by taxing profits on the first home would be anything but stealthy even for those that don't particularly pay much attention to this type of activity..no ,why risk national outrage when you have options via national Insurance etc ...let's face it we are a nations of homewners and as such virtually everyone of voting age would be effected adversely which for Brown seeking election next time around would be the 'kiss of death' whereas, NI just how many people really notice ?
 
let's face it we are a nations of homewners and as such virtually everyone of voting age would be effected adversely which for Brown seeking election next time around would be the 'kiss of death' whereas, NI just how many people really notice ?

Good point and I guess it will be interesting to see how things develop.


Paul
 
FWIW, I’ve just found this site: http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/

Makes for some sobering reading, doesn’t it?

‘er in doors works for an estate agent and she tells me that the market around here (T.Wells) is pretty much fecked at the moment. Plenty of people have cashed in to move abroad and my guess is that the outflux can only accelerate after 5th May.

Still, there’s consolation of a sort, as Matthew Parris points out: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1065-1521700,00.html

Have good weekend. :)

Cheers

Mayfly
 
Mutual Funds
7 ways to beat a housing bubble

You can't totally hedge your home's value against a housing crash, but here are seven ways you can limit the damage -- or at least stop worrying about it.

By Timothy Middleton

It's easy to see why real estate has replaced technology stocks as topic No. 1 at cocktail parties. Nationwide, housing prices soared 15% over the past year, and in the West, they're up 21%, according to the National Association of Realtors.

But it's a lot easier to lock in a stock gain than a home's price appreciation. I've been getting e-mails from readers asking for ways to hold on to these gains if, as they fear, prices could be poised to fall.

First, the bad news: You can't fully "hedge" your homeownership investment. Perhaps some day you'll be able to, but you can't now. The only marketplace offering a pure hedge has just been created and doesn't have enough liquidity to be practical.

Now, the good news: There are a host of tools you can use to give your anxiety a rest. Some are mirror opposites of others, because no single answer can address everybody's concerns. But one or more of them might be useful to you.

Or you might even decide you don't have to do anything at all. "I agree that a bubble now exists, but all real estate has to do is flatten out for awhile and the bubble will go away," says Tom Kirk, president of CPA Wealth Management Services in Melbourne, Fla. "It doesn't have to decrease 20%."



Except in the most speculative markets -- and I'm addressing the concerns of homeowners here, not real-estate speculators -- significant declines in housing prices are both modest and rare.

That said, a 50% or 100% jump in your home's value can induce anxiety. Here are seven ways to tame those concerns.

The pure hedge
For now, this is more of a parlor game than a serious financial alternative. An online exchange called HedgeStreet.com offers hedging contracts in six of the nation's largest cities (Chicago, Los Angeles, New York, Miami, San Francisco and San Diego) and plans ultimately to extend them to other areas. You buy "hedgelets," the equivalent of options contracts that will either pay off if median local prices rise or decline, depending on the hedge.

Each hedgelet costs some fraction of its $10 value at maturity, which is a period of a few weeks or months. The hedgelet only has value if it succeeds: Hedgelets on declining prices expire worthless if prices rise. The most recent trade last week betting that average prices in New York would decline below $425,000 by Aug. 11 was at $6.




Stop and think about that bet. For a hedge of $25,000, you would have to put up $15,000. The most you can gain is $10,000. The most you can lose is $15,000. Maybe that's why only 40 or so hedgelets like that were trading hands when we checked.

Indirect hedges
If you think housing prices will decline because interest rates will increase, you can buy either of two mutual funds designed to capitalize on higher rates. Rydex Juno Investor Fund (RYJUX) is designed to deliver the inverse of the price performance of long-term Treasury bonds. ProFunds Rising Rates Opportunity Fund (RRPSX) is designed to deliver 125% of the inverse of the long Treasury.

The problem, says Anne Ruff, manager of the Rydex fund, is there isn't a high correlation between property values and interest rates. "Property values may go down even if interest rates don't go up," she says. "This could be a partial hedge, but not a lock-step hedge."

Similarly, a partial hedge might be to short iShares Dow Jones Real Estate Index (IYR, news, msgs), an exchange-traded fund. It chiefly tracks commercial real estate rather than homes, however, and those two markets can diverge drastically.

If seeking a housing hedge, "I would short the largest home builders, such as Lennar (LEN, news, msgs), Pulte Homes (PHM, news, msgs), Hovnanian Enterprises (HOV, news, msgs), Ryland Group (RYL, news, msgs), WCI Communities (WCI, news, msgs), M/I Homes (MHO, news, msgs), KB Home (KBH, news, msgs) or D.R. Horton (DHI, news, msgs)," says William Neubauer, president of Comprehensive Money Management Services in Coral Gables, Fla.

Boost your home equity
A homeowner's greatest financial risk is losing more than all of his equity. Let's say you put down $20,000 on a $200,000 house, or 10%, and prices decline to $170,000. If you have to sell, it will cost you $10,000 out of pocket, in addition to losing the down payment.

"Instead of buying a hedge against falling home prices, we need to get back to the old-fashioned way of protecting ourselves from the possibility of falling prices -- build home equity," says Elaine Scoggins, a planner in Tampa, Fla.

That means avoiding things like interest-only mortgages, which give you no equity. On your existing mortgage, round up your monthly mortgage payment -- write a check for $1,000 a month instead of $940, for instance -- to build equity faster.

Borrow and invest elsewhere
If, on the other hand, you have a lot of equity and you're worried about losing some of it, borrow money at today's low interest rates.

"Pull equity out of the property while it still has high valuations and invest it elsewhere," says Ryan Darwish, a financial adviser in Eugene, Ore. Assuming your investments pay off -- Darwish is recommending the energy sector -- you could end up with more than you started with, even in a property rout.

Sell the hot, buy the cold
"Sell in the 'overpriced' market and buy in the 'underpriced' market," recommends Michael Horowitz, a planner with Life Strategies Financial Planning in Austin, Texas.

Sell your $800,000 bungalow in Silicon Valley and pay $400,000 for a four-bedroom house in one of Austin's swank neighborhoods. "When the trade settles, stick the $400,000 (difference) in Treasurys," Horowitz counsels.

That might be impractical if your job is in California. But most localities have top-drawer neighborhoods where prices have gone up the most and more adventuresome areas that are still cheap. Many of Brooklyn's three-story brownstones, for example, were bought with the proceeds from the sales of Manhattan apartments.

Sell and lease back
One sign of a property bubble is investors buying single-family homes as investments rather than to live in themselves. Such buyers are eager to lease the house back to its occupants because it eliminates the cost of finding tenants.

"This can be done in bubble areas while the bubble is on," notes Curt F. Fey, a financial advisor in Pittsford, N.Y. "An increasing number of single-family homes are bought by other than residents."

If you're right, you can buy your house back more cheaply after the bubble bursts. If you're wrong, at least you pocketed your earlier gains. The risk, of course, is that you may have missed out on additional profits.

Sell, rent, buy
"When clients ask us about the current real-estate bubble on Maui, I (suggest that they) sell their house, rent for a couple of years, and then buy another residence at a lower price" after the bubble bursts, says E. Dennis DeStefano, a financial adviser on that Hawaiian island.

If you can rent a home for less that it would cost to buy one that's similar, it's likely prices are too high and will retreat. If my wife weren't so attached to our family home here in northern New Jersey, that's exactly what I would do, because rentals in this area are cheaper than purchases.

Which leads us to the final gambit:

Do nothing
"A house is a typical person's largest expense item, rather than an investment," says John Henry Low, a planner with Knickerbocker Advisors in Pine Plains, N.Y. It represents what economists call a "use" asset rather than an investment asset.

"Since it costs typically 20% of the purchase price to flip (buy and sell) a house, when you take into account commissions, closing fees, relocation costs, 'fix up' repairs to prep a house for sale, etc., you can't trade these things like mutual funds," he says.

Consider your house the roof over your head, and not a risky investment, and you'll sleep better inside it.
 
Hi

House prices have fallen, on average, 18% since August 2004 and will fall another 10% over the next two years. Start looking for a house before spring 2007 and offer 15% less than the asking price. You will do good deals I think but make sure that you exchange contracts quickly in case prices firm up. There will probably be a global recession in five years time. Be aware!
Phil

jtrader said:
Hi

I know relatively little about the housing market.

I will be looking to buy a house within the North of the UK over the next 2-3 years.
The rise in house prices over the last 3-4 years has shocked me and many others I expect.

I find the prospect of buying a house a scary business.

If the UK housing market has peaked, I feel very sorry for those people who have gotten onto the housing ladder at the peak and are now faced with being stretched to the very limit - if interest rates continue to rise.

I am aware that other issues are affecting this housing boom/crisis other than interest rates. These include the fact that we live on an overcrowded small Island. Peoples living patterns have changed - more single people want to buy a home. Not enough houses are being built to keep up with demand and places where housing can be built are limited now - due to issues with greenbelt land.

I would like to hear the opinions of people with more knowledge than myself. My questions are -


What do you see happening with the property market, prices and interest rates over the coming years?

If you see house prices coming down as higher interest rates are introduced, by how much do you see prices coming down by?

If interests rates were to return to the pre-property boom rates of 1998/99-2000, what level of retracement in average house prices would you expect to see?

To what extent are house prices/will house prices be controlled by interest rates?

I assume that a high interest rate economy equates to a low value housing market and visa versa. From a home owners point of view which is best - low house prices and high interest rates, or high house prices and low interest rates?

Over the course of a 25 year mortgage, how many property boom and property recession cycles is a homeowner likely to experience? i.e. how long do boom cycles and recession cycles historically tend to last in the housing market?


I have come to the following theoretical conclusion -

It doesn't really matter if house prices are high or low to mortgage holders/homeowners because when house prices are high, interests rates are low, and when house prices are low, interest rates are high. Under both scenarios, a homeowner/mortgage holder would end up paying back approximately the same amount to the bank/building society over the couse of a 25 year mortgage.
The only real problem when house prices are high is that people are unable/find it very difficult to borrow the amount of money needed in order to buy property - as house prices move out of kilter with salaries and the amounts banks/building societies are prepared to lend.


Is this an accurate theory? which parts are right and which parts are wrong?



Many thanks :)

jtrader.
 
French House Prices

philhackett said:
Hi

House prices have fallen, on average, 18% since August 2004 and will fall another 10% over the next two years. Start looking for a house before spring 2007 and offer 15% less than the asking price. You will do good deals I think but make sure that you exchange contracts quickly in case prices firm up. There will probably be a global recession in five years time. Be aware!
Phil

Will this cause house prices in France to drop I wonder? :D
 
Neil,
I've been monitoring French prices for about 4 years now and observing how the increase has spread dept by dept ...I think the thing here to bear in mind is that quite a lot of this upsurge has been because of British buying interest ..as such I would expect it to come under pressure if that interest tapers off due to financial constraints..that's what I am hoping for..and of course I am almost whipping the Euro to drop heavily ...1.42 to 1.50 so far so I may be getting my wish ,but I take the view that Europe is a real basket case compared to US so with the GBP in the middle we might have quite some way to go yet...in which case we might be in for some good buying power in the not too distant future....keeping my powder dry for the moment ;)
 
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