U.S. Shutdown, no agreement

[Purple Brain]

The I think about this the more it seems like a cracking way to sort stuff out. Any country having a spot of bother could effectively file for Chapter 11. Give itself a bit of breathing space. They don't have to go down the entire default route, but with no official data coming out, no political meddling in other stuff - as the focus is going to be only on the shutdown - and everyone other than the public sector still working away quite merrily, I reckon it could work well.

Saw on the news last night it's costing $320 million a day. What is? It's only public sector off work - not the producing, industrial, financial, commercial sectors which actually increase GDP.

Sounds like a good plan and one any domestic household knows only too well - If your budget is stuffed, you cut the non-essentials until you're in the black again.

And if benefit payments don't get made and bins don't get emptied and legions of public administration staff don't get paid for counting paperclips, it's not Armageddon.




Off on a tangent, one of my favourite one-liners from Stewart Francis - "So what if I can't spell Armageddon - it's not the end of the world!".

 

[barjon]

............. I don't think the lady working in the leisure industry would be paying the same rate for the room as she was charging her clients..............

s'why rooms is plural, pb.

 

[Purple Brain]

s'why rooms is plural, pb.

Missed that one barjon. She was a busy bee wasn't she.

 

[Splitlink]

Hi PB.

That's because it is not you out of work.

Personally, I think that it is an insult to all who depend on these services because the prime reason is that the government cannot agree. As has been said, already, the matter will probably be sorted out within a few hours, or days. But that it will be sorted and, until it is, all those people out of jobs can get on with it, that is the insult.

 

[Purple Brain]

From Lawrence McDonald at ConvertBond

Debt Ceiling: $16.7 Trillion
Hit Date: Oct 17
Net daily expenditures, as high as: $60b
Amount Available to fund per day: $30b
Default: Nov 1

 

[new_trader]

One day a man walked into an hotel and asked to inspect the bridal suite. He left a £50 note with owner as a deposit.

The owner nipped round to wine merchant and paid him the £50 he owed him.

The wine merchant nipped round to the deli and paid him the £50 he owed him.

The deli owner nipped round to a lady of the street and paid her the £50 he owed her.

The lady of the street nipped into the same hotel and paid the £50 she owed for rooms.

The man came back from the bridal suite, picked up his £50 from the owner and left.

Voila - everyone was out of debt and went on their merry way.

Such is the way the world works today - smoke and mirrors.

Where did the man get the original £50 from? He had to provide a good or service in exchange for it. Money represents work. However, with the representative fiduciary money we have been forced to use today, Central Banks are the only group with the monopoly privilege of creating money out of thin air.

 

[new_trader]

It is not, I think, a question of whether we crossed the point of no return or not. We are just as a country going through a cycle of life. The world is so interconnected in so many ways that debt is traded much like commodities and to say that we cannot pay back debt is meaningless because every country or business is indebted in some way to someone else. Political favor is sometimes worth much more than most people might think. Power is money but power is only useful if people follow. As people continue to become more like sheep in wake of social technology, actual money becomes less important. A number is just a number. Be it a trillion or a million.

Cheers

Fiat money or fiduciary money has created the detachment from what money used to represent back when it was a hard currency. Politicians have brainwashed the public into believing that debt is good and only a Politician could argue that borrowing more money is needed to pay its bills.

The best analogy I've heard that describes the situation in the U.S (and the U.K) is this: A person sits down at a restaurant, has a big meal and the realises they can't pay. Rather than admitting it, they just keep ordering food and drinks so that the bill never arrives. The restaurateur thinks he has a rich customer and just keeps bringing the food and drinks.

 

[barjon]

Where did the man get the original £50 from? He had to provide a good or service in exchange for it. Money represents work. However, with the representative fiduciary money we have been forced to use today, Central Banks are the only group with the monopoly privilege of creating money out of thin air.

I think he was trading the ES and got lucky dunno how that would be providing a good or service.

I don't disagree with you in principal, but I'm not sure what money represents nowadays. Seems it's just figures on a computer file and if all the computers blew up tomorrow we'd all be penniless apart from the spare change in our pockets.

 

[Splitlink]

I think he was trading the ES and got lucky dunno how that would be providing a good or service.

I don't disagree with you in principal, but I'm not sure what money represents nowadays. Seems it's just figures on a computer file and if all the computers blew up tomorrow we'd all be penniless apart from the spare change in our pockets.

He, probably, had a Visa, or he bummed it off his girlfriend.

 

[new_trader]

I think he was trading the ES and got lucky dunno how that would be providing a good or service.

I don't disagree with you in principal, but I'm not sure what money represents nowadays. Seems it's just figures on a computer file and if all the computers blew up tomorrow we'd all be penniless apart from the spare change in our pockets.

Replace the £50 note with a Rolex Watch...Then you will see clearer how money should (and once did) represent productivity.

Ask yourself, how long would you keep working for someone who only keeps promising to pay you? Eventually you will either demand payment or realise that they haven't got the money to pay you.

Look around at all the things you own that have 'MADE IN CHINA' stamped on it. Real, tangible, useful things. Then it becomes clearer who the real 'suckers' are in this deal. We get real stuff from China and they get Government promises to pay. They are the restaurateur and we are sitting at the table ordering the food and drinks...promising to eventually pay, with money off a printing press...

 

[Jason Rogers]

I don't disagree with you in principal, but I'm not sure what money represents nowadays. Seems it's just figures on a computer file and if all the computers blew up tomorrow we'd all be penniless apart from the spare change in our pockets.

Sorry, couldn't resist :cheesy:

/* SPOILER ALERT */

 

[Splitlink]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03brshs

Could not sleep this morning and was fortunate enough to catch a very good piece on the German financial crisis after WW1

Scroll along to 2H 33m. There is a summary of Celtic-Barca football prior to it, just so that you know that you are in the right spot.

I thought it very good and quite relevant to this debate. You`ll need 15-20 minutes to listen peacefully.

 

[lucas_king]

Check this out. There is an app for US shutdown. Scary though.

http://shutdown.outline.com/

 

[spiderbyte87]

the longer it takes the more fun will ensue in the markets.....watch this space indeed

jees the biggest Democratic Nation in the world and they cant even run the Admin office

god bless the land of the free....

N

When you say "Democratic Nation", I assume you mean that the government is a Democracy, which it is not. It is a Federal Presidential Constitutional Republic. Leaders are elected democratically, but that has nothing to do with how the government is run internally.

 

[wackypete2]

When you say "Democratic Nation", I assume you mean that the government is a Democracy, which it is not. It is a Federal Presidential Constitutional Republic. Leaders are elected democratically, but that has nothing to do with how the government is run internally.

Although that's not a true definition of a democracy it's the generally accepted view of what it is. Just ask the average person anywhere in the world if the US is a democracy they would say yes. The rest is all just semantics. It seems the semantic police extol great joy in pointing this out on this forum, but for what reason? It's usually not significant to the discussion.

Peter

 

[wackypete2]

Check this out. There is an app for US shutdown. Scary though.

http://shutdown.outline.com/

No big deal. I make that in a year of trading.

Peter

 

[spiderbyte87]

Although that's not a true definition of a democracy it's the generally accepted view of what it is. Just ask the average person anywhere in the world if the US is a democracy they would say yes. The rest is all just semantics. It seems the semantic police extol great joy in pointing this out on this forum, but for what reason? It's usually not significant to the discussion.

Peter

Because there really is a big difference. In the context of a trading forum, where knowledge of international politics and government is important, I would hope that traders would be interested in understanding the difference.

 

[Purple Brain]

Because there really is a big difference.

A really big difference between democracy and a Federal Republic? What is it? Without going into the constitutional definitions and details of the Executive, Legislative and Judicial branches and how they provide checks and balances on each other (in theory), how does it differ from the apparent democracy we allegedly enjoy in the UK and the way our lives are conducted on a day to day basis?

Neither the USA nor the UK citizenry enjoy true democracy so perhaps the US should be congratulated for acknowledging the true state of affairs in the constitution of their Republic.

Germany, Austria and Switzerland are all Federal Republics and are all also considered democracies - as far as the current usage of that word is concerned.

For the man in the street - he will notice little difference between the two in normal day to day commerce, liberties and rights - or lack thereof.

If you want a real contrast try China, N. Korea, Syria...

 

[spiderbyte87]

The key difference between a democracy and a republic lies in the limits placed on government by the law, which has implications on minority rights. Both forms of government tend to use a representational system where citizens vote to elect politicians to represent their interests and form the government. However, in a republic, a constitution or charter of rights protects certain inalienable rights that cannot be taken away by the government, even if it has been elected by a majority of voters. In a "pure" democracy, the majority is not restrained and can impose its will on the minority.

-not my words, but sums it up nicely

 

[Shakone]

The key difference between a democracy and a republic lies in the limits placed on government by the law, which has implications on minority rights. Both forms of government tend to use a representational system where citizens vote to elect politicians to represent their interests and form the government. However, in a republic, a constitution or charter of rights protects certain inalienable rights that cannot be taken away by the government, even if it has been elected by a majority of voters. In a "pure" democracy, the majority is not restrained and can impose its will on the minority.

-not my words, but sums it up nicely

Such as?

I agree that's how it is presented, but I am not convinced that it is anything other than an illusion that these rights can't be taken away.