Traders' opinions wanted pls:maths grad w internships but still no job?!

[SM2010]

Hi. I just wanted to get some opinions of traders/finance professionals with regard to my situation, as I am finding it incredibly hard to find a trading position even though I believe I'm a good candidate. I graduated in September from University College London with a BSc in Maths with Econ (2:1) and was considering doing a masters the following year, but instead decided to go live in Paris for 4 months (until Feb) and do a french language course at the Sorbonne university. I decided not to do the masters as alot of people told me (perhaps mistakenly) that it won't make a difference. I've done 2 major front office internships in both my 1st and 2nd year of Uni (1st year: Morgan Stanley Fixed Income, 2nd year: Citigroup Equity Trading) as well as other spring programmes at Deutsche Bank and ABN AMRO. Since I've come back from Paris (february) I've been looking for positions in Fixed Income Derivative Trading and have had a couple of interviews- without success.

What I wanted to know was whether a masters makes a big difference, because in the few interviews that I've had the majority of the other candidates were doing a masters, which makes me think that it could be one of the reasons I was not selected. If it does make a big difference, would it be worth taking ANOTHER year out (on top of this one) to do a masters? Or am I better off studying for something like the CFA in my own time while working in middle office (for example) at a bank, until I can find a suitable front office trading position.

I would greatly appreciate any responses/advice! Thanks.

 

[gooseman]

honestly, that is a great CV.....are you falling down in interviews?

 

[elitejets]

Hi SM2010,
You have a degree and have done internships (so your cv and interview skills are fine).
But so does everyone else have these things. Hence why you are not being snapped up.

Do the masters.
Then look to join a graduate scheme and get to a trading role via this route. Dont bother with CFA or the other add-ons, you can do these once you get a job. And also, dont bother applying directly to a bank. Your only option is via the graduate intakes. UK students always fall down because the european kids do masters and phd's and make the choice for HR easy.

And definitely dont join middle office. It is akin to wanting to run tesco while stacking it's shelves.

Good luck.

ps. If you can take your masters at the LSE, you will have a good chance of securing a job.

 

[Black Swan]

honestly, that is a great CV.....are you falling down in interviews?

Obviously I'm not qualified to offer him any advice, but what is the general state of recruitment in The City atm? I'd presume it's as bad as just about any other industry; those in clinging onto their jobs, those out doing everything to impress...I find it quite depressing that a lad such as this is struggling to get anything, probably got a decent lump of student debt to pay back at some stage too. This recent exponential growth in internship really troubles me, free labour force with absolutely no guarantee, so many City lawyers are using it, you get Freshfields or Simmons on your cv as an intern all well and good, but undergraduates are really being put through hoops of fire just to get something happening for themselves...deeply worrying for the next generation...

 

[jb323]

Hi. I just wanted to get some opinions of traders/finance professionals with regard to my situation, as I am finding it incredibly hard to find a trading position even though I believe I'm a good candidate. I graduated in September from University College London with a BSc in Maths with Econ (2:1) and was considering doing a masters the following year, but instead decided to go live in Paris for 4 months (until Feb) and do a french language course at the Sorbonne university. I decided not to do the masters as alot of people told me (perhaps mistakenly) that it won't make a difference. I've done 2 major front office internships in both my 1st and 2nd year of Uni (1st year: Morgan Stanley Fixed Income, 2nd year: Citigroup Equity Trading) as well as other spring programmes at Deutsche Bank and ABN AMRO. Since I've come back from Paris (february) I've been looking for positions in Fixed Income Derivative Trading and have had a couple of interviews- without success.

What I wanted to know was whether a masters makes a big difference, because in the few interviews that I've had the majority of the other candidates were doing a masters, which makes me think that it could be one of the reasons I was not selected. If it does make a big difference, would it be worth taking ANOTHER year out (on top of this one) to do a masters? Or am I better off studying for something like the CFA in my own time while working in middle office (for example) at a bank, until I can find a suitable front office trading position.

I would greatly appreciate any responses/advice! Thanks.

I hope I never turn up at an interview against you...

 

[gooseman]

Obviously I'm not qualified to offer him any advice, but what is the general state of recruitment in The City atm? I'd presume it's as bad as just about any other industry; those in clinging onto their jobs, those out doing everything to impress...I find it quite depressing that a lad such as this is struggling to get anything, probably got a decent lump of student debt to pay back at some stage too. This recent exponential growth in internship really troubles me, free labour force with absolutely no guarantee, so many City lawyers are using it, you get Freshfields or Simmons on your cv as an intern all well and good, but undergraduates are really being put through hoops of fire just to get something happening for themselves...deeply worrying for the next generation...

Don't know about law but theer is a fair bit of seat-swapping going on. Experienced traders are moving onto fixed deals at a lot of places and just sitting there to take down flow. Lots of deleveraging going on.

As an addition the problem is with grads is every tom, dick and harry has a degree of some sort. the worth of which is questionable. a degree is no longer a benchmark.

 

[jb323]

We have degrees, but wants wrong with that, yeah we learnt something just because thousands of people do some media degree at some dogsh*te uni. But that shouldn't blur the fact there is people with passion who aren't getting noticed.
It seems to me to be a trader you have to a passion, comitment, great money management, R:R, an understanding of the markets, good maths skills etc..
But you have so many 'companies' who are either trying to sell a course or take advantage of a real passion to work as a trader.
My year of grads come out with like 20k of debt due to labour, the thing is there is quite a few grads on here looking to you older guys for information. And to be honest if you shift through the sh1t on t2w, there is some incredible threads/journals!!

But it seems time and time again that the few fulltime professional/retail traders on here forget that they once got there break, and there is people who would rather criticise people looking at Sbetting or demo accounts to get some kind of 'toe in the water' of what it would be like if they had the opportunity.

You don't have to have a PHD in rocket science to make a few quid in trading, but comittment to waking up at some ungodly hour with your eyes glued to a screen all day... but at the moment that aint enough.

I don't know where this rant is going but basically frustration at being tarred with a brush!!

 

[jb323]

By the way this isn't an attack at anyone on here.....

Just tired of trying to bang down doors .

Joe

 

[gooseman]

We have degrees, but wants wrong with that, yeah we learnt something just because thousands of people do some media degree at some dogsh*te uni. But that shouldn't blur the fact there is people with passion who aren't getting noticed.
It seems to me to be a trader you have to a passion, comitment, great money management, R:R, an understanding of the markets, good maths skills etc..
But you have so many 'companies' who are either trying to sell a course or take advantage of a real passion to work as a trader.
My year of grads come out with like 20k of debt due to labour, the thing is there is quite a few grads on here looking to you older guys for information. And to be honest if you shift through the sh1t on t2w, there is some incredible threads/journals!!

But it seems time and time again that the few fulltime professional/retail traders on here forget that they once got there break, and there is people who would rather criticise people looking at Sbetting or demo accounts to get some kind of 'toe in the water' of what it would be like if they had the opportunity.

You don't have to have a PHD in rocket science to make a few quid in trading, but comittment to waking up at some ungodly hour with your eyes glued to a screen all day... but at the moment that aint enough.

I don't know where this rant is going but basically frustration at being tarred with a brush!!

it's all about getting your foot in the door mate

 

[arabianights]

And it's going to be a shrinking profession anyway judging from the international, er, hostilities to it, methinks.

 

[gooseman]

i'll also add that just because you have a degree it doesn't mean you're entitled to a job.

 

[jb323]

i'll also add that just because you have a degree it doesn't mean you're entitled to a job.

I agree, there is no entitlement from a degree... at the end of the day its about making money and earning your stripes.

Its the same as trying to be a professional footballer, kicking about with your mates and training doesn't make it a career. You still need someone to give you a runout.

 

[gooseman]

to be a good trader you have to be able to fetch breakfast without makign a mistake....

 

[Adamus]

When I think about the days that I was trying to break into the City, I'm just grateful I failed. Could be sour grapes, but when I look at all my peers, they've got the car, the house, the wife, the kids, the pension. Just like Renton in Trainspotting - now why I would I want that?

When I meet up with my old friends who are in there now with all that baggage, I hate to have to say it but it seems that life stopped evolving for them around about the 35 year old mark. Maybe it's alright seriously. I mean, they seem happy enough. But their choices are actually limited - not by money now, just by imagination and feasibility. It's difficult to hit the nail on the head, and maybe it's my arrogance, but these guys are just... dunno.

So the corporate life? Faggeddaboudit.

 

[jb323]

to be a good trader you have to be able to fetch breakfast without makign a mistake....

Find me the trading floor who is willing to give me the break I can do breakfast, and I'm sure I can sort out the coffees aswell :clap:

 

[SM2010]

honestly, that is a great CV.....are you falling down in interviews?

I personally don't think I am falling down in the interviews. One of the reasons why I say that is because quite recently I had an interview with a bank and I was being interviewed by someone trading Equity Exotics and when I got rejected my feedback was that I should perhaps consider a sales role and as a result HR have told me that they are going to hook me up with an interview with the sales desk (even though I have no interest in sales). So I personally don't think I got rejected due to poor interview technique. I wasn't asked any form of brainteasers/maths questions at the interview, which makes me think that perhaps the interviewer had decided that I'm not a good fit for his desk purely down to my academic credentials i.e. not having a masters. Or maybe I have just been quite unlucky so far with my interviews and that they didn't think my personality was a good fit for their desk.

 

[SM2010]

Hi SM2010,
You have a degree and have done internships (so your cv and interview skills are fine).
But so does everyone else have these things. Hence why you are not being snapped up.

Do the masters.
Then look to join a graduate scheme and get to a trading role via this route. Dont bother with CFA or the other add-ons, you can do these once you get a job. And also, dont bother applying directly to a bank. Your only option is via the graduate intakes. UK students always fall down because the european kids do masters and phd's and make the choice for HR easy.

And definitely dont join middle office. It is akin to wanting to run tesco while stacking it's shelves.

Good luck.

ps. If you can take your masters at the LSE, you will have a good chance of securing a job.

Thanks for the advice! I think that this is perhaps the best option to take and am currently rushing to fill my masters applications as I am quite late in the process already!

So if I manage to do a masters, you don't think that they may dislike the fact that I haven't been working for 2 years after I graduated? Or does doing the masters really make up for it?

Do you not recommend doing Middle Office even if it is as a trading assistant (in the hope of being able to move to a trader internally)? Because if not then I think I will just pursue the masters if I get accepted! Thanks for the advice once again.

 

[tommason]

how did you fail the interview ? did u feel you did not answer the question correctly ?
since you are good at math i believe u pass the brain teaser question. what's left is the behavioral questions and others stuff. so maybe because of your behavior.

Hi. I just wanted to get some opinions of traders/finance professionals with regard to my situation, as I am finding it incredibly hard to find a trading position even though I believe I'm a good candidate. I graduated in September from University College London with a BSc in Maths with Econ (2:1) and was considering doing a masters the following year, but instead decided to go live in Paris for 4 months (until Feb) and do a french language course at the Sorbonne university. I decided not to do the masters as alot of people told me (perhaps mistakenly) that it won't make a difference. I've done 2 major front office internships in both my 1st and 2nd year of Uni (1st year: Morgan Stanley Fixed Income, 2nd year: Citigroup Equity Trading) as well as other spring programmes at Deutsche Bank and ABN AMRO. Since I've come back from Paris (february) I've been looking for positions in Fixed Income Derivative Trading and have had a couple of interviews- without success.

What I wanted to know was whether a masters makes a big difference, because in the few interviews that I've had the majority of the other candidates were doing a masters, which makes me think that it could be one of the reasons I was not selected. If it does make a big difference, would it be worth taking ANOTHER year out (on top of this one) to do a masters? Or am I better off studying for something like the CFA in my own time while working in middle office (for example) at a bank, until I can find a suitable front office trading position.

I would greatly appreciate any responses/advice! Thanks.