Tony Blair: Is This The Beginning Of The End?

[JonnyT]

What was the alternative?

Appease Saddam until he had verifiiable nukes?

I personally support a policy of first strike in such cases. 9/11/2001 changed the world for decades.

I'm a tory by heart but would vote for Blair at the present time. He made some tough unpopular decisions. Mucho respecto.

JonnyT

 

[madasafish]

lets face it: anyone who believes the USA did not make up its mind to invade Iraq on 12th September 2001 is basically very naive and has not read the published transcripts of President Bush and Condoleeza Rice

Now who is so naive as to believe what politicans say ? Most Labour MPs for a start it seems. Then they hget upset becuase Tony has exagerated the evidence!

Which worlds do they come from: ALL Governments embellish the truth, none more than the current one. Anyone who claims they were mislead as a politician is either naive or lying or a naive liar

As for the electorate, anyone who believes what a politican says .. well deserves what is coming to them.. better hospitals, no congestion, better schools, no more taxes, lower crime , and fewer immigrants...a reformed House of Lords etc..





WMD? and urnaium processing? Don't make me laugh! Any person who did any research knows you need large scale manufacturing processes for nuclear weapons.. about 20 acres at least.. Must be very well hidden as it could not be seen from satellites and even teh Iraquis could not find it.. Even the US does not claim what is CLEARLY IMPOSSIBLE but Tony can walk on water of course...

"Bullsh#t baffles brains " is Mr Campbell's motto.. you can fool most of the people most of the time...some just want to be fooled by the look of things.

Remember that IDS supported the US 100%

 

[rocwell]

Will Tony Blair survive?. Well, Like the disease, MR TB will mutate and find a way to survive, all the best plagues do....Was it all worth it?.... Only time will tell....Who will benefit? only the BUSH CRIME FAMILY who will do what they do best, drain `the black gold` from the earth, which they will sell on to us and turn a handsome profit....Will IRAQ be a better place?......No. the social and political problems Iraq faced extended far beyond the scope of Saddam....Understand that Northern Iraq (AKA the Kurdish Autonomous Zone) was and still is de facto controlled by the PUK and the KDP Saddam had had no Power in that area for years. Most people who flee from Iraq have been Kurds fleeing the KAZ Their fear of persecution / torture stems from the attitudes and actions of their own Kurdish leadership and power structures and is ofen interspersed with the obligatory/ occasional fear of the good old `Muslim Fundamentalist`. While Saddam was responsible for alot, he wasnt reponsible for everything the problems remain and sorting them out was never what the West cared about. MR TB will survive because we have demonstrated that our votes can be freely bought by the most popular bidder. `we the people` have short memories and ultimately we dont really care what happens to Iraq. We will let this all blow over and go back to complain about everything else, including the price of petrol.

 

[spreadbet]

Blair has done away with two groups of fundamental extremists, One group literally murdered and persecuted it's own people ie Hussein.
The other group murdered and persecuted it's own people financially ie the Tories.Remember negative equity, the exchange rate mechanism, interest rates going to some ridiculous level to save the ERM and the Tory Party, the numbers unemployed on a long term basis, Jonathan Atkins Trusty Sword of British Justice. The Stock market Crash of 87. The breakdown of social cohesion, the prospect of paying American style charges for health care. BSE now there's a weapon of mass destruction if ever there was one. However the most dangerous WMD is the Brish electorate who vote parties out rather than vote parties in.

cheers

spreadbet

 

[Car Key Boi]

yuo guys are right, we should never have invaded Iraq even thou Goddamn Insane was murdering hundreds of thousands

they were his own people, it was none of our business!!!

 

[spreadbet]

That make mass murder ok then?

 

[rocwell]

Far from it, MASS Murder is never right. ...but the fact is that it was allowed to go on for years and was compounded by years of sanctions...Any one remember that Madeline Albright ( i think ) confirming that in her opinion--and as a consequence the official American opinion--the death of an estimated 500,000 Iraqis was worth the imposition of sanction?? If that isn't condoning Mass murder then what is??????????? The Weapons of Mass Destruction, sorry...Weapons of Magical Disappearance were just a ruse to through us of the scent.....anyone who believed the 45 min threat in my humble opinion, watches far too much Hollywood.

Mass murder, Death, repression and other offences of leadership dont concern us, unless it has an impact on us...unless it affects our consumption of commodities, there is nothing we get from that Madman Mugabe or his troubled country and so he is low on our list of priorities and so we will pay lip-service but no more.

 

[bertie]

WMD

re jonnyt's comments.....we liberated iraqis and will now get a ready supply of oil.....we wont liberate zimbabwe because there's no oil.....

nice principled view that......we'll liberate you if you've got oil...otherwise......f*** off......

i was never taken in by the wmd argument......by all means get rid of saddam but lets get rid of the other tyrants as welll....

we and the yanks acted out of self interest, nothing else......we couldn't give a stuff for iraqis....."its the oil stupid"......the fact that we won't go after mugabe or any other tyrant, some of whom are propped up by the yanks gives the lie to blair's "new world order"......

 

[JonnyT]

Hi bertie,

The US has no strategic reason to invade Zimbabwe. We do not have the resourses so cannot.

Iraq was highly strategic (given oil) and that Saddam had openly had a policy of harrassing the US. It left no alternative after 11/9/1.

I'm just waiting to see who's next.

North Korea's nuclear facilities are likely to be taken out within 12 months when the US has put it's missile shield into the South. I expect a big preemptive strike by Stealth Bombers.

Irans a maybe as is Syria. The US has placed 30,000 more troops into the region since the Iraq war.

JonnyT

 

[bertie]

WMD

hi jonnyt.....the us does what it wants and blair follows like the lapdog he is.......now the sacrificial lamb the MOD put up before the select committee is dead......blair is finished......

my point is....let's do away with the BS about freeing iraqis...we want their oil and bush needed a scalp because he didnt get bin ladens......blair said it was a moral war.....freeing zimbabwe would be moral too.....seems to me that blairs new world order only applies if the yanks want it to.....

 

[JonnyT]

Berti,

The US is a superpower we are not. We can only do certain things if the US supports us. In return we have to support them on occasion. Thats the way the wheel turns.

Accept it or emigrate to Zimbabwe.

JonnyT

 

[bertie]

WMD

hi jonnyt

i do accept it......i just get hacked off when people come up with pathetic moral arguments for going to war in order to try to cover up the real reasons.....

bertie

 

[grubs50]

So it is right to kill more ppl cos of sept 11, i hope ppl realise that more innocent ppl have been killed by America since the Afghanistan war and has it reduced the threat of terrorism?.i don't think so.......two wrongs will never make a right. There was terrorism b4 sept 11 so the fact that it happened in Ameica doesn't mean the world has changed........Sadam last used chemical weapons against the kurds over 10 years ago.....where were the western powers then? and were the western powers not in support of Sadam when he was using it against the Iranians? So the moral reason simply doesn't stand up. We will be bogged down in Iraq 4 years to come with Iraqis steadilly becoming more hostile

 

[rocwell]

Johnnyt... I wasnt aware that the was any definite proof other than speculation that Iraq was involved or brought about 9/11....didn't everyone blame Bin laden.??....even official sources dont conclude a link between Osama and Saddam/Iraq either in the guise of terrorist cells/camps or surreptitious channels of communication which means that there is no legitimacy in the view that pre-emptive strikes against Iraq were justified for that reason....No WMDs are found following a war and 12 years of sanctions were imposed before a phoney war was started. I dont see how even if the USA is a Superpower it justifies anything.

 

[grubs50]

well said, rocwell

 

[JonnyT]

I didn't say it was right. The world is full of injustice. Where it effects the lives of millions then we should be happy if something is done. In this case it was, sometimes it isn't but don't beleive I'm naive enough to think there arn't wider forces in play.

JonnyT

 

[rocwell]

jonnyT...i dont for one moment think naive would describe you.

Its just that from my employment, i know first hand that politics is bullS**t. Yes we do side with America but we seem to be crossing the thin divide between `supporting` the USA and `Complying` with the USA. The more we do that, the more we lose credibility. I have a friend who is in the RAF. According to him The Americans are considered gung ho and he wouldn't choose to have gone into any operation during the war with them if he had a choice...It seems that the gung ho attitude extends into foreign policy as well. The Brits Still have credibility on their side. but how long do you think that this credibility will last??? How long before British Soldiers/ British interests in Iraq are targeted on a daily basis? Possibly the sole thing saving us now is the respect that goes with having credibility.

I just think that we will end up being badly tarnished by all this. We can justify it all by saying the electorate dont really understand or cant be privy to sensitive information etc, but the fact is that the little we have been told is so shaky its in danger of disintegrating into nothing.....for all the world to see. That unconditional support, or submissive compliance, may cost us in the hearts and minds of the world. whose fault? MR TB

America is in danger of possibly becoming a tyrannical World Dictatorship. I say this because arguably a dictator is a leader who acts with self interest and ignores the good counsel of his advisers...because it suits him, because he can and with impunity. Its only my opinion but i think that if America had its chance, in pursuit of its aim of a wider spectrum of presence/influence io the world stage, it would fit that mould.........Can anyone see this coming or is it just me? Are we good enough to fight a war with but not competent to wield the scales of justice. America seems to think that support is a one way street and wont even let us try our own accused terrorists. I think that pretty much sums up their attitude towards us....only fit to do the menial work, not capable of doing much else...

 

[Car Key Boi]

That make mass murder ok then?

no, my post was a tad sarcastic....but that's basically the message Peacetards are saying, although they'll never come right out and say it...

and it's the same with "we know Saddam is murdering his own people, but we've got to stop the American imperialism!!!"

i laugh when Birts and Euros talk about America's imperialism and trying to become a world dictactorship blah

Imperialism is a British and European invention

the only reason why France, Britain, Germany blah are not trying to establish massive empires once more is because they no longer have the capability... but if they could, they would

makes yuo wonder about this proposed USE military force, huh?

"over the past decades, the United States has invaded many countries, and the only land we sought to occupy, was the land to bury our dead prior to leaving" - Colin Powell

 

[spreadbet]

This is an interesting thread, on the one hand bashing Blair and Bush the two people who did something about Hussein and on the other agreeing that something should be done about terrorists and mass murders. Certainly something should have been done many years ago. I think Blair has shown great restraint particularly with Clair Short her self indulgence is nauseating. At least George Galloway stuck by his paymaster. with respect to the financial aspects ie oil etc. The war has to be paid for either from our taxes or by selling the oil. As for the financial interest of others all of this sells newspapers and feeds stories be they true or false to the BBC, I wonder what their long term agenda may be.

cheers

spreadbet

 

[madasafish]

"This is an interesting thread, on the one hand bashing Blair and Bush the two people who did something about Hussein and on the other agreeing that something should be done about terrorists and mass murders"

In the past 40 years:
Russia invaded Afghanistan, Hungary, and oppressed various countries, fights Chechen rebels and kills 100,000s and supported many dictatorships including Castro.

In the past 40 years the US killed Chile's president, invaded Vietnam, bombed Cambodia, financed the Contras , armed Saddam and supported military dictatorships in Latin America and elesewhere.
In the past 40 years the UK armed the Israelis, the Indonesians, Saddam Hussein, Oman, supported apartheid in South Africa etc..assasinated Irish Catholics etc.

Pots and kettles??