The Inland Revenue?

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Paul71

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I've mentioned the Inland Revenue multiple times since yesterday, so here is a question regarding thier role in legitamising a trader as an actual trader.


Q) If the inland revenue do not have you on thier records as a trader, what actually are you in legitimate terms?
 
zambuck said:
:cheesy:....sponger...
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That's one way of putting it. I honestly didn't think that the question would inspire hoards of tax paying futures traders to come forward though, t2w may be seriously lacking in that department.:)
 
oildaytrader said:
Could employ price Waterhouse and Aurthur anderson to deal with the tax authorities.That would be truly illegitimate and truly certified by reputable people/cons

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/we-are-victims-of-satyam-fraud-price-waterhouse/90522-7.html

Buy these cartoons and pay them in cartoon licenses

http://www.cartoonstock.com/directory/a/arthur_andersen.asp
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:)Yes, i can imagine some potential 'student' asking his 'tutor' about paying tax at the first, 'no obligation, free class'...

Tutor: "...oh i don't generally bother with the taxman..."

Student: "Are you a tax evader?"

Tutor: "Errrr, umm, well yes and no...:eek:"

Student: "I'll get my coat."

Tutor: "No please, i don't actually make enough to be liable for tax"

Student: "I'll get my coat.":)
 
Paul71 said:
I've mentioned the Inland Revenue multiple times since yesterday, so here is a question regarding thier role in legitamising a trader as an actual trader.


Q) If the inland revenue do not have you on thier records as a trader, what actually are you in legitimate terms?
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If you dont class your trading as self employment, then you are unemployed as far as the IR are concerned.

If you are not self employed then all trading profits (not Spread betting profits) above 10K will have be declared as Capital gains on your tax self assement return.

Now if you declare big Capital gains from trading (probably more than 50K or 100K a year), the inland revenue will eventually dig deeper into your affairs to check your status ie make sure you aren't a professional trader that should be declaring themselves self employed (eg a dealer, an arbitrageur, a high volume market maker type of trader). If that is the case you should probably be trading through a Ltd company anyway.
 
donaldduke said:
If you dont class your trading as self employment, then you are unemployed as far as the IR are concerned.

If you are not self employed then all trading profits (not Spread betting profits) above 10K will have be declared as Capital gains on your tax self assement return.

Now if you declare big Capital gains from trading (probably more than 50K or 100K a year), the inland revenue will eventually dig deeper into your affairs to check your status ie make sure you aren't a professional trader that should be declaring themselves self employed (eg a dealer, an arbitrageur, a high volume market maker type of trader). If that is the case you should probably be trading through a Ltd company anyway.
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Thankyou, DD.

I think we have established that any serious professional trader will be trading through a ltd company, or at least as a sole trader, and the IR will be properly informed of the business.
 
Paul71 said:
Thankyou, DD.

I think we have established that any serious professional trader will be trading through a ltd company, or at least as a sole trader, and the IR will be properly informed of the business.
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If you are a pure speculator you could be making millions and still be declaring CGT, which at 18% is very favourable.

The courts have ruled that financial speculation is closer to gambling than it is to 'carrying on a trade' (such as being a plumber).

IMO, Long term traders and swing traders should be able to declare under CGT without problems.

For day traders it might be more tricky, you would want to show you are not a high volume scalper and that you don't earn the majority of your profits from the bid/ask spread.

Obviously best to take legal advice or ask the Revenue when you fill out your tax return.
 
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donaldduke said:
If you are a pure speculator you could be making millions and still be declaring CGT, which at 18% is very favourable.

The courts have ruled that financial speculation is closer to gambling than it is to 'carrying on a trade' (such as being a plumber).

IMO, Long term traders and swing traders should be able to declare under CGT without problems.

For day traders it might be more tricky, you would want to show you are not a high volume scalper and that you don't earn the majority of your profits from the bid/ask spread.

Obviously best to take legal advice or ask the Revenue when you fill out your tax return.
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That's pretty interesting. At the moment I'm cutting teeth on SB so it's tax free but I've already spoken to my accountant (I'm self employed already) about this when I move to direct market and just assumed because positions are being held from anywhere between 1-5 days that they are fundamentally capital gains and losses. Are you saying the IR could interpret this as income and if so, on what grounds?
 
robster970 said:
That's pretty interesting. At the moment I'm cutting teeth on SB so it's tax free but I've already spoken to my accountant (I'm self employed already) about this when I move to direct market and just assumed because positions are being held from anywhere between 1-5 days that they are fundamentally capital gains and losses. Are you saying the IR could interpret this as income and if so, on what grounds?
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No in my last post, i said 'swing trading' is almost certainly CGT.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/swingtrading.asp

What Does Swing Trading Mean?
A style of trading that attempts to capture gains in a stock within one to four days.
 
You need to register as self employed within 3 months btw so if you haven't done it for a while then best to claim you haven't.

However, why would you want to register if you're getting away with it? Let's not beat about the bush. The Revenue are the Mafia in Marks and Spencer suits. They are scum. Tax is extortion. They have absolutely no right to your money. You would be better off saving the 56% they will steal from you and using it to build a few bombs, which could be set off around Whitehall at times that are convenient.

As for LTD companies... it gets even more complicated than that unfortunately, oh how simple it would be if I only had one LTD and no LLP. Honestly you are much better off just committing justifiable homicide to the *******s. Morally you would be 100% in the right because make no mistake they will eventually kill you when you try to use self defence to prevent them from stealing your legitimately owned property.
 
robster970 said:
That's pretty interesting. At the moment I'm cutting teeth on SB so it's tax free but I've already spoken to my accountant (I'm self employed already) about this when I move to direct market and just assumed because positions are being held from anywhere between 1-5 days that they are fundamentally capital gains and losses. Are you saying the IR could interpret this as income and if so, on what grounds?
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you are making a decent shilling using SB, when you make lots of luverly pounds carry on with SB, simples.:) IMHO the only change you should be looking for is to take your edge to DMA when it makes sense (for you) financially. SB is free of tax end of, no ifs no buts. I have 'friends' who are big big professional horse racing gamblers, can't be touched. SB = gambling Hurrah!! :D
And when you do begin to move to DMA think about tax avoidance, do not let your accountant think for you, you do it. By that time you'll probably be using EAs to automate your trading anyhow...oops, :-0 that'll bring out the 4 horsemen of the Price Action inquisition...:whistling
 
Trading does attract some of the most unsavoury characters, tax dodging, gambling mad fraudsters and scammers. Lester Piggott, doesn't stand a chance on t2w:)
 
Paul71 said:
Trading does attract some of the most unsavoury characters, tax dodging, gambling mad fraudsters and scammers. Lester Piggott, doesn't stand a chance on t2w:)
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Yeah he'd be left right behind....'cos he got caught, the loser...:)
 
Black Swan said:
you are making a decent shilling using SB, when you make lots of luverly pounds carry on with SB, simples.:) IMHO the only change you should be looking for is to take your edge to DMA when it makes sense (for you) financially. SB is free of tax end of, no ifs no buts. I have 'friends' who are big big professional horse racing gamblers, can't be touched. SB = gambling Hurrah!! :D
And when you do begin to move to DMA think about tax avoidance, do not let your accountant think for you, you do it. By that time you'll probably be using EAs to automate your trading anyhow...oops, :-0 that'll bring out the 4 horsemen of the Price Action inquisition...:whistling
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I'm SB'ing at $50 per pt right now so I was thinking about the point where I want to increase this, say 5-fold or 10-fold where SB'ing becomes untenable.

I've worked with my accountant for over 10yrs - we have a good understanding and anyway it is my fiduciary responsibility to set the accounting principles, not him :cheesy:
 
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