Pat494
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Those Greeks are great on hot air theories it's when they have to get their hands dirty it all falls apart
Those Greeks are great on hot air theories it's when they have to get their hands dirty it all falls apart
Jerry Westerby
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Atilla
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My guess is it will be better and more advanced than the first.
End of the EU - don't think so.
Correcting its sytematic flaws by adding fiscal harmonisation to the union to complement the single currency to balance actions of the ECB. Political coup by the Germans one may say.
I'm not agreeing with it. I don't like relinquishing power to a central bereautcratic institution that does not represent the people.
However, the demise of the Euro is premature to say the least.
Interesting experiment. Cusp of a new era and all that. How exciting it all is. We are living makings of history.
I am disappointed in the way that the Eurozone has proven to be the mess that it is. I was one of the optimists. Unfortunately, this fiscal treaty should have been a condition of membership, not the result of failure.
27 member states, all with their own fish to fry, are not going to help the New Europe to work. The reason why Europe has expanded so rapidly is the reason for its failure (although, it has not failed, quite, yet) because inclusion of new, poor, members, was necessary for the expansion of the economies of the existing members.
In a nutshell, not enough control. With this control, though, comes, in my view, domination from the German-French axis. These other mmbers have not realised that, yet. The British have and they do not want it. Good or bad? I don't think that anyone knows what the result of this will be for the UK.
Proud but poor?
Merkel, I don't know, but we have made enemies in Europe this week and this may come back to haunt us.
27 member states, all with their own fish to fry, are not going to help the New Europe to work. The reason why Europe has expanded so rapidly is the reason for its failure (although, it has not failed, quite, yet) because inclusion of new, poor, members, was necessary for the expansion of the economies of the existing members.
In a nutshell, not enough control. With this control, though, comes, in my view, domination from the German-French axis. These other mmbers have not realised that, yet. The British have and they do not want it. Good or bad? I don't think that anyone knows what the result of this will be for the UK.
Proud but poor?
Merkel, I don't know, but we have made enemies in Europe this week and this may come back to haunt us.
Pat494
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The only country to benefit from the euro is Germany. Their exports are underpriced because of the smaller countries. These little countries will no doubt be absorbed into this " Borg Machine " and assimulated.
Let's hope the EU was just a bad dream and as Atilla says - HISTORY !!
Let's hope the EU was just a bad dream and as Atilla says - HISTORY !!
As I see it, the only countries to benefit are those that have only the amount of debt that they can handle. The rest have got into trouble on their own. If Germany is the only country to benefit it is costing them plenty to bail out the rest, now, As I said, the Euro was introduced without strict fiscal rules.
The UK is not responsible for the Euro's problems but do not forget that it has its own.
How both sides solve them is their business. I don't see what the fuss is about.
The UK is not responsible for the Euro's problems but do not forget that it has its own.
How both sides solve them is their business. I don't see what the fuss is about.
Atilla
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To me ultimately the fuss is about accountability to who owns the debt and sharing of that pain.
With currencies - if one country prints more money then that matched by productivity output etc then inflation eventually erodes that currency and purchasing power.
With a single currency in Europe - some countries have been consuming much more and producing less being subsidised by people in other countries. Could be said that some were even fraudulent in the conduct of their governments.
Without an accountable adjustment mechanism such a system fails miserably when confronted with its first real stress test.
I would go as far to say expecting governments of various countries to regulate their fiscal policies is pie in the sky - much like self regulation of our banks and financial services.
1. I do think what Germany is doing is correct and one can't knock it to be honest. We need good management and they are simply the best.
2. I think the Financial industry needs to be taxed and regulated
3. I also think it would be wrong to exclude the UK from these rules that would be applied to banks and finance sector in all the other countries. Otherwise it would be unfair competition
I'm not sure I understand fully what was proposed and whether anybody has done any studies as to how we would be impacted. We are told our financial services would be adversely affected but nobody has described how. Concept of fairness is a double edged sword but a very strong effective one.
If the Asians or Americas wish to allow their financial sector to roam free let them. If they do not wish to tax their transactions, that's their business. So what is the likely outcome; banks will leave the European area and locate in two other continents? Well if they can cause so much trouble and losses impacting millions - let them. We can't let this **** happen again. Much ado about anything.
Moreover, the UK is already losing the war in the financial arena with exchanges going to NY and Europe and Far East. Even Dubai has its eye on gaining market share in financial services. Our share of the insurance broking market has already diminished and Lloyds is not what it used to be.
I feel we need more information to understand what is on the table and the need to go a little slow in making our minds up about all this but the referendum and big discussion for political reasons is a no no.
Pat my take on it is that the Euro will become stronger if it survives this crises (which I think it will). So history is in the making right now - not in the passing mon ami...
Pat494
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I would go as far to say expecting governments of various countries to regulate their fiscal policies is pie in the sky - much like self regulation of our banks and financial services.
They would have to regulate themselves properly if they were on their own and nobody else to bail them out - as in the pre-EU days.
1. I do think what Germany is doing is correct and one can't knock it to be honest. We need good management and they are simply the best.
Rubbish. Not much fun working that hard under a Prussian dictat system.
2. I think the Financial industry needs to be taxed and regulated
It is taxed and was adequately regulated untilthe Clinton/Blair ninneys took off the restraints. It is in nobody's interests to see the banks relocating to a banana republic and the bankers pocketing the lot themselves !
3. I also think it would be wrong to exclude the UK from these rules that would be applied to banks and finance sector in all the other countries. Otherwise it would be unfair competition
competition is basically unfair, the advantages go to those who have an edge.
If the Asians or Americas wish to allow their financial sector to roam free let them. If they do not wish to tax their transactions, that's their business. So what is the likely outcome; banks will leave the European area and locate in two other continents? Well if they can cause so much trouble and losses impacting millions - let them. We can't let this **** happen again. Much ado about anything.
To lose one's banks to another area would be disastrous for jobs and home investment.
Moreover, the UK is already losing the war in the financial arena with exchanges going to NY and Europe and Far East. Even Dubai has its eye on gaining market share in financial services. Our share of the insurance broking market has already diminished and Lloyds is not what it used to be.
London is still a major financial centre even after Gordon Brown's feeble efforts and WE in Britain should make sure it remains so. None of the "throwing in the towel " talk please
Pat my take on it is that the Euro will become stronger if it survives this crises (which I think it will). So history is in the making right now - not in the passing mon ami... :thumbsup:
Let's hope the politicians manage to do something sensible for a change and it's up to us THE PEOPLE to make sure the bums do !!
What is a fact is that the British have been sitting on the fence for decades. They are out of any new fiscal treaty which it is in their democratic right to be. My view is that they should pull out, altogether, and then negotiate the only thing that interests them, commercial trade agreements,if the Europeans will let them. The very important financial sector would, then, be theirs to control--if they can. If they cannot it will be their own fault. But to keep on criticising from the outside when their own state of affairs is almost as dire is a cheek.
counter_violent
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Reminds me of the old adage that, things that need to be done don't get done by committee, Europe being the perfect example of this.
In times of crisis you need strong leadership to steer the ship and not leave the job to a bunch of cheese eating wine swilling surrender monkeys.
I disagree with almost nothing that you have written about the mess that Europe is in.
What I do ask is why the hell are you ,still, in Europe? Don't tell me that it is because of your crap politicians. Europeans would answer "Don't tell me your problems and we won't tell you ours!" However, your banks are as, every bit, in trouble anyone's and Cameron's crowd are, as usual, crapping themselve because of the amount of European bonds UK banks hold.
Fifteen years ago Spain wanted Britain in Europe as a counterbalance to the other powers dominating us. When Blair promised so much with the common agricultural policy, we were delighted. What happened? Sweet FA happened. Since then, Britain's moans have been taken with a pinch of salt and now no one cares whether the Brits are in or out. The Europeans have their own problems.
However, personally, I would say that if the UK was part of the Eurozone, to-day,
we would not be better off. The UK would be one more oproblem.
Please, leave but, if you don't leave, please, stop moaning.
What I do ask is why the hell are you ,still, in Europe? Don't tell me that it is because of your crap politicians. Europeans would answer "Don't tell me your problems and we won't tell you ours!" However, your banks are as, every bit, in trouble anyone's and Cameron's crowd are, as usual, crapping themselve because of the amount of European bonds UK banks hold.
Fifteen years ago Spain wanted Britain in Europe as a counterbalance to the other powers dominating us. When Blair promised so much with the common agricultural policy, we were delighted. What happened? Sweet FA happened. Since then, Britain's moans have been taken with a pinch of salt and now no one cares whether the Brits are in or out. The Europeans have their own problems.
However, personally, I would say that if the UK was part of the Eurozone, to-day,
we would not be better off. The UK would be one more oproblem.
Please, leave but, if you don't leave, please, stop moaning.
barjon
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Yeah, neat trick isn't it
Just imagine how the Deutchmark/Drachma exchange rate would have gone if they had been free floating.
counter_violent
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Not that i'm moaning or anything but I do agree we should leave and let them all squabble amongst themselves. It's not as if the UK was called upon to advise on a solution or be asked to put a proposal on the table for discussion. This whole current situation is being engineered by France's weasel faced Sarkozy (bless his little cotton socks) because he knows that unless he can drag everyone else into the mire that his country is more exposed than any other at this time should the contagion effect gather any further momentum. All of these indebted countries need to get their finances in order, which basically means stop borrowing more money (which is the root cause of all problems) and come up with a credible plan to pay down existing debts and live within their means. Simples.
Pat494
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Let's face it the EU was invented by the Italians ( Prodi )- that alone should have sounded alarm bells. They should stick to what they are good at - which is fast cars and icecream parlours.
Policed by useless committees of ignoramuses !
Producing reams of nonsensical red tape dictats that noone wants or needs
Supported by French tarts
Moaned about by the rest with the Brits in the front line ( probably to see if the Can Can dancers remembered to put their knickers on ! )
To cap it all they have found another Italian( Dragghi ) to try and organize the rescue effort !!
I mean common guys - let's stop be being so funny and talka da serious businessa - pronto ok ?
Policed by useless committees of ignoramuses !
Producing reams of nonsensical red tape dictats that noone wants or needs
Supported by French tarts
Moaned about by the rest with the Brits in the front line ( probably to see if the Can Can dancers remembered to put their knickers on ! )
To cap it all they have found another Italian( Dragghi ) to try and organize the rescue effort !!
I mean common guys - let's stop be being so funny and talka da serious businessa - pronto ok ?
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Pat494
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If Merkel/Sarkozy had any sense they would have found an informed group of progressive people to re-write all the EU treaties to make a fair, competent and comfortable system that works. Paid them X millions of euros and got the others to agree to accept it.
As it is they are plugging on and patching a corrupt , inefficient system that is sure to fail and cost a fortune !
So well done to David Cameron ( at last ) - he has done the right thing. Hope he doesn't just flounce off in a huff - but comes back with proposals for a workable system of checks and balances etc.
Could start with scrapping the EU parliaments - yes both of them
As it is they are plugging on and patching a corrupt , inefficient system that is sure to fail and cost a fortune !
So well done to David Cameron ( at last ) - he has done the right thing. Hope he doesn't just flounce off in a huff - but comes back with proposals for a workable system of checks and balances etc.
Could start with scrapping the EU parliaments - yes both of them
